Is homosexuality something God can redeem?

[KCKID]

It is not by my definition. It is by your action. Be honest and we are friends again.

But I AM being honest . . . Jesus never said anything about homosexuality (He didn't even include it when talking about immorality) so I'd be dishonest if I were to say that He did.

 

[meshak]

But I AM being honest . . . Jesus never said anything about homosexuality (He didn't even include it when talking about immorality) so I'd be dishonest if I were to say that He did.

My point is that you dont like Jesus' teachings.

You are so concerned of what other's think of your and others' sexuality.

You are so self centered or world centered. Jesus' followers are supposed to be Jesus' centered.

 

[KCKID]

My point is that you dont like Jesus' teachings.

You are so concerned of what other's think of your and others' sexuality.

You are so self centered or world centered. Jesus' followers are supposed to be Jesus' centered.

Geez ...you sure know how to hurt a guy, I'll give you that much. :blink:

That said, I think that I've displayed the very opposite to what you're accusing me of.

 

[JackSafari]

Haven't you heard the phrase "Dead in your sins"? (See Colossians 2:13). When a person commits a sin (even if that sin is homosexuality), they are separated from God. That is what is means to be "dead in your sins". Those who are separated from God do not have eternal life. They are dead in their sins.



God created men and women. He did not create homosexual tendency or pedophilia tendency or any person attracted to animals. Those are all disorders and choices that people make.

You're confusing behavior with sexual behavior with sexual orientation. There is a clear separation between sexual attraction and sexual behavior. What two consenting adults do is not disorder according the the DSM IV. Investigate the difference between the two.

If you wish to consider sexual orientation a sin, that is just your individual personal belief.

 

[meshak]

Geez ...you sure know how to hurt a guy, I'll give you that much. :blink:

That said, I think that I've displayed the very opposite to what you're accusing me of.

Nope, you displayed that you dont like Jesus' teachings; it is boring to you.

 

[Selene]

You're confusing behavior with sexual behavior with sexual orientation. There is a clear separation between sexual attraction and sexual behavior. What two consenting adults do is not disorder according the the DSM IV. Investigate the difference between the two.

If you wish to consider sexual orientation a sin, that is just your individual personal belief.

No I am not. Homosexuality is the behavior. Homosexual is the person and the sexual orientation. Being a homosexual is not a sin. It is when they engage in the act of homosexuality....then they are committing a sin.

 

[JackSafari]

No I am not. Homosexuality is the behavior. Homosexual is the person and the sexual orientation. Being a homosexual is not a sin. It is when they engage in the act of homosexuality....then they are committing a sin.

I suggest you do more research on the topic. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, just like heterosexuality, neither define a person's sexual behavior. Sexual behavior is are the activities people do that evolve sex.

You do bring up an interesting point which is a common disagreement within Christianity. Some say being a homosexual person is a sin against God, some (like you) say only homosexual behavior is a sin. As KCKID suggested, is having homosexual fantasies and thoughts also a sin, or only engaging in homosexual sex?

 

[KCKID]

No I am not. Homosexuality is the behavior. Homosexual is the person and the sexual orientation. Being a homosexual is not a sin. It is when they engage in the act of homosexuality....then they are committing a sin.

Let me ask you this, Selene. Many homosexuals have married people of the opposite sex ...for appearance or whatever They have produced children. And yet, their sexual desires are still homosexual. While I don't want to be crass, these desires even when being intimate with their opposite sex partner may very well be homosexual and, in fact, probably are. In other words they might just as well be having sex with someone of the same gender in thought at least. Is that a sin?

Nope, you displayed that you dont like Jesus' teachings; it is boring to you.

Meshak, I'm beginning to equate you to a pesky fly that keeps buzzing around my head and, even though I continually swat at it, it won't go away. You know what I mean . . .?

 

[JackSafari]

^^ IMHO, he is intentionally playing mind games. Seen similar personas in other forums where the person never actually says anything of substance, just posts vague\cryptic messages. There are however, real people who are so on the fringe nobody can make sense of them, even those who are closest to them. We all have been to church where there is that one guy or one women who is functional, but clearly has problems staying in reality even to the point of telling others that Jesus stops by every morning for coffee and gives religious instructions for the day. And for that person, its very real despite the fact nobody else shares that reality with them.

 

[KCKID]

^^ IMHO, he is intentionally playing mind games. Seen similar personas in other forums where the person never actually says anything of substance, just posts vague\cryptic messages. There are however, real people who are so on the fringe nobody can make sense of them, even those who are closest to them. We all have been to church where this is that one guy or one women who is functional, but clearly has problems staying in reality even to the point of telling others that Jesus stops by every morning for coffee and gives religious instructions for the day. And for that person, its very real despite the fact nobody else shares that reality with them.

Actually, meshak and I have run into each other over the years on different forums and I tend to kid around quite a bit with, um ...HER. Yes, meshak is a FEMALE even though most of us would have thought otherwise ...hope she doesn't mind my revealing that. She'll attack me anyway so it doesn't make too much difference. I'm not sure about the mind games but there IS some kind of simplistic fanaticism involved here. You can bet your life that whatever I say meshak will disagree with me and will, most likely, lash out at me with insults. I just take it in my stride. I know that, deep down, she really loves me and would like a big kiss from me . . .!

But anyway ...that's Meshak for ya!

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

This is a difficult subject at best. I believe that homosexuality is
spoken very clearly against in the scriptures and is, of course, sin. It
goes against everything God is and as such, at its core, is satanic.

However, I do differentiate between those who choose homosexuality and those
who are compelled by nature to be homosexual. For some it is a lifestyle
they chose and that is patently wrong. For others it is something that
they feel so strongly in their nature that they cannot seem to be different
even if they wish to be. For these people I believe that God gives grace
if they are doing their best in what is admittedly a bad situation. And
even if they can't overcome they should serve God anyway in whatever capacity they
can.

What most people say to Homosexuals that want to be different is theory. You have no
practical way to deal with their delema except to say "don't do it." Can God judge a person for having
downs syndrome? Can God judge a homsexual if they cann't be delievered? What if they can be delievered but
the church is so powerless that no one in the church can lay hands on them and help them be free? Point being is
that God may have much more grace on such people than those who rail against them might suggest.

I once attended a church that ministered mainly to homosexuals, transvestites,
and other fringe groups. The pastor was a "former" homosexual
man who wasn't all that delivered. The odd thing about it was that the
Holy Spirit moved very powerfully in that group of people even though they were
struggling with such issues. All I can say from that experience is that
God's grace is magnificent and Christ's blood is all powerful for covering
sin.

I thought that I would have a difficult time ministering to people such as
these but I found that they are no different than other people and in fact have
a great deal of humility and compassion for others because they have suffered
so much.

Perhaps, for some, this drive for same sex relationships is the best they
can come up with to fill that need in their hearts for the love of God which
they really crave.

We should seek to err on the side of compassion rather than judge these
people when we have not had to deal with what they have and are dealing with.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[KCKID]

Dear All,

This is a difficult subject at best. I believe that homosexuality is
spoken very clearly against in the scriptures and is, of course, sin. It
goes against everything God is and as such, at its core, is satanic.

However, I do differentiate between those who choose homosexuality and those
who are compelled by nature to be homosexual. For some it is a lifestyle
they chose and that is patently wrong. For others it is something that
they feel so strongly in their nature that they cannot seem to be different
even if they wish to be. For these people I believe that God gives grace
if they are doing their best in what is admittedly a bad situation. And
even if they can't overcome they should serve God anyway in whatever capacity they
can.

What most people say to Homosexuals that want to be different is theory. You have no
practical way to deal with their delema except to say "don't do it." Can God judge a person for having
downs syndrome? Can God judge a homsexual if they cann't be delievered? What if they can be delievered but
the church is so powerless that no one in the church can lay hands on them and help them be free? Point being is
that God may have much more grace on such people than those who rail against them might suggest.

I once attended a church that ministered mainly to homosexuals, transvestites,
and other fringe groups. The pastor was a "former" homosexual
man who wasn't all that delivered. The odd thing about it was that the
Holy Spirit moved very powerfully in that group of people even though they were
struggling with such issues. All I can say from that experience is that
God's grace is magnificent and Christ's blood is all powerful for covering
sin.

I thought that I would have a difficult time ministering to people such as
these but I found that they are no different than other people and in fact have
a great deal of humility and compassion for others because they have suffered
so much.

Perhaps, for some, this drive for same sex relationships is the best they
can come up with to fill that need in their hearts for the love of God which
they really crave.

We should seek to err on the side of compassion rather than judge these
people when we have not had to deal with what they have and are dealing with.

Blessings,

Justin

Well, I find this post very difficult to respond to. Maybe later when it more registers in my mind. While I can't agree that homosexual is, 1. spoken very clearly against in the Bible, and, 2. is satanic, the rest of the post sort of makes good for those things that I don't agree with. Perhaps it might be best to leave this post 'as is' and to simply offer 'thanks' to Justin for presenting it.

 

[JackSafari]

Justin, Just seeing the word "Satanic" conjures up imagines of sexual vampires who go out after dark looking for victims. As a myth, it ranks right up there with masturbation makes people go blind. Of all the people I've met, I never met any that were Satanic.

The only people I've known to choose to adopt a homosexual lifestyle were young women I met in college who had been raped many times over several years by older male relatives. While in college these women found it impossible have heterosexual relationships with men because sex had been forced upon them many times. Often the only men they did trust were homosexual men because they knew these men were not interested in raping them.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear J,

By Satanic I mean the opposite of what God intended. In all of
creation God made male and female to procreate and therefore it is not in God's
design to have that type of relationship with the same sex.

I frankly don't know of anyone who has been completely delivered of
homosexuality male or female. The best the people I have had dealings
with seem to be able to do is to resist engaging in such behavior for a while
until the pressure becomes too much and they slip back into the
lifestyle. If it is biological how can we judge them harshly? I think the best we could do is to leave them
to God’s grace and know that the judge of the whole Earth will do right.

This is not to say that grace means that we should allow them to promote
this lifestyle as a norm within church.
I would say it could be an exception though if the Holy Spirit so led. I
will admit that it is tempting to take a hard line position and just say that
there is never a situation where He will allow it to exist. That is easy for us who do not wrestle with
this to say. But I know that if someone
came to me and said my salvation depended upon me never engaging in
heterosexual relationships again…that simply would not fly.

I have met women who have been abused and therefore they have more or
less chosen a lesbian lifestyle because of hurt and mistrust. So your
point is valid and well taken. However, if you are anyone else you know does
not have the power with God to lay hands on such a person and see them
completely delivered until they are not tormented by such desires how can you
condemn them?

Perhaps it is just a matter of "not casting the first stone" type
thing because many who condemn homosexuality have fornicated or even committed adultery.

Also, I can imagine that someone who feels they are gay through nature and
no fault of their own might feel very badly being told that what they felt
they wanted to do was satanic. I don't know where compassion, grace, and
the word meet on this subject but I do know that those who want to serve God
yet can't seem to beat this tendency should accept His grace and keep loving
and believing in Him no matter what.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Selene]

I suggest you do more research on the topic. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, just like heterosexuality, neither define a person's sexual behavior. Sexual behavior is are the activities people do that evolve sex.

You do bring up an interesting point which is a common disagreement within Christianity. Some say being a homosexual person is a sin against God, some (like you) say only homosexual behavior is a sin. As KCKID suggested, is having homosexual fantasies and thoughts also a sin, or only engaging in homosexual sex?

Again, as I said, being a homosexual or a heterosexual is NOT a sin. It is when a person engage in the ACT of homosexuality that it becomes a sin. Homosexuals can be celibates. When they don't engage in the ACT of homosexuality, then they are not committing a sin. Having homosexual fantasies and thoughts would be a sin.....it is the same as a heterosexual having heterosexual fantasies and thoughts. They both commit the sin of lust.

 

[JackSafari]

Justin, your compassion for people is obvious and it is something I respect and admire. You clearly want people to live fulling lives to the best of their ability, and you want to help them as much as you can. We just simply disagree on the issue, and that is OK with me.

I have encountered your perception of homosexuality before, and it can be best summarized as homosexuality being the same as a drug addiction or alcoholism, something that must be fought every moment or relapse into self-destructive behavior. From a religious perspective I can understand how homosexuality can be perceived that way because some define\perceive homosexuality as a person with a sexual problem, thus "homosexual sex" is like a drug addict taking drugs because he is out of control.... The reason I perceive this is highly inaccurate is because the vast majority of homosexuals lead happy and productive lives while having regular sex, just like heterosexual couples who have regular\healthy sex. When accepted by friends\family\community\church they are well adjusted individuals. Homosexuals that deny themselves sex, tend to be unhappy, frustrated, and feel guilty because they have been taught that being a homosexual is bad\evil\immoral\satanic\etc, and they are inherently bad for being who they are. Yes, there are going to be homosexuals who are self-destructive, over indulge in sex, and fall into the category of being a lost soul, but its not because they are homosexual, its because they have various kinds of personal problems, just like heterosexuals who are self-destructive, over indulge in sex, drugs, and other activities that harm themselves.

Overall, I do respect how you handle yourself and your religious beliefs even if I don't agree with your conclusions on homosexuality.

 

[Selene]

Justin, your compassion for people is obvious and it is something I respect and admire. You clearly want people to live fulling lives to the best of their ability, and you want to help them as much as you can. We just simply disagree on the issue, and that is OK with me.

I have encountered your perception of homosexuality before, and it can be best summarized as homosexuality being the same as a drug addiction or alcoholism, something that must be fought every moment or relapse into self-destructive behavior. From a religious perspective I can understand how homosexuality can be perceived that way because some define\perceive homosexuality as a person with a sexual problem, thus "homosexual sex" is like a drug addict taking drugs because he is out of control.... The reason I perceive this is highly inaccurate is because the vast majority of homosexuals lead happy and productive lives while having regular sex, just like heterosexual couples who have regular\healthy sex. When accepted by friends\family\community\church they are well adjusted individuals. Homosexuals that deny themselves sex, tend to be unhappy, frustrated, and feel guilty because they have been taught that being a homosexual is bad\evil\immoral\satanic\etc, and they are inherently bad for being who they are. Yes, there are going to be homosexuals who are self-destructive, over indulge in sex, and fall into the category of being a lost soul, but its not because they are homosexual, its because they have various kinds of personal problems, just like heterosexuals who are self-destructive, over indulge in sex, drugs, and other activities that harm themselves.

Overall, I do respect how you handle yourself and your religious beliefs even if I don't agree with your conclusions on homosexuality.

Actually, studies have shown that a large majority of gay men do not lead a healthy sex life. Studies show that most gay men acquire many sexual diseases than heterosexual men mainly because of the type of sexual activity that gay men engage in, which is anal sex. The same research study also show that this is not the case with lesbians mainly because most lesbians do not engage in anal sex. The anus was never designed to let things in. It was designed to take things out. An endorsement on homosexuality and same sex marriage only allows these gay men to obtain more sexual diseases.


Below is a weblink from CDC (Center for Disease Control and Prevention) on the health of gay and bisexual men. According to the weblink, it stated:

Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been increasing among gay and bisexual men. Recent increases in syphilis cases have been documented across the country. In 2008, men who have sex with men (MSM) accounted for 63% of primary and secondary syphilis cases in the United States. MSM often are diagnosed with other bacterial STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections.

Gay and bisexual men can be infected with HPV (Human Papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States. Some types of HPV cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancer. Men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to develop anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who are uninfected to develop anal cancer.

http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm


This is one reason why I will not support same sex marriage. If we really love our homosexual brothers, why would we support a lifestyle that would only bring them sexual diseases and an early death?

 

[KCKID]

Again, as I said, being a homosexual or a heterosexual is NOT a sin. It is when a person engage in the ACT of homosexuality that it becomes a sin. Homosexuals can be celibates. When they don't engage in the ACT of homosexuality, then they are not committing a sin. Having homosexual fantasies and thoughts would be a sin.....it is the same as a heterosexual having heterosexual fantasies and thoughts. They both commit the sin of lust.

"Sin" appears to occupy much of your mind, Selene. Is that healthy? Anyway, you say that when a person engages in the ACT of homosexuality that it becomes a sin. Tell me, from a human perspective, why would a person who engages in the ACT of homosexuality be doing anything different to a person engaging in the ACT of heterosexuality? It's 'sex' on both counts. No crassness intended, but it might even be the same method used. So, why is one a sin and the other not? See, I can't apply logic to this way of thinking. Then again, do we need to actually suspend logic to be in tune to the mind of God?

Yes, homosexuals and heterosexuals can be celibate. But, why should they have to be if it is not their choice (there's that word) to be celibate? No one should have celibacy forced upon them because of religion. I've thrown down the challenge before, if a fundy Christian is so hell bent on accepting homosexuals only on the basis of their being celibate then the fundy should also be willing to give up sex!

Tell me, Selene, what is the difference between 'lust' - whether heterosexual or homosexual - and 'sexual desire'? I'm waiting with bated breath for your response ...

 

[Selene]

"Sin" appears to occupy much of your mind, Selene. Is that healthy? Anyway, you say that when a person engages in the ACT of homosexuality that it becomes a sin. Tell me, from a human perspective, why would a person who engages in the ACT of homosexuality be doing anything different to a person engaging in the ACT of heterosexuality? It's 'sex' on both counts. No crassness intended, but it might even be the same method used. So, why is one a sin and the other not? See, I can't apply logic to this way of thinking. Then again, do we need to actually suspend logic to be in tune to the mind of God?

Yes, homosexuals and heterosexuals can be celibate. But, why should they have to be if it is not their choice (there's that word) to be celibate? No one should have celibacy forced upon them because of religion. I've thrown down the challenge before, if a fundy Christian is so hell bent on accepting homosexuals only on the basis of their being celibate then the fundy should also be willing to give up sex!

Tell me, Selene, what is the difference between 'lust' - whether heterosexual or homosexual - and 'sexual desire'? I'm waiting with bated breath for your response ...

If one can tell a pedophile to control his attraction for very young children, then one can do the same for the homosexual person. They also need to control their attraction for the same sex.

Tell me, Selene, what is the difference between 'lust' - whether heterosexual or homosexual - and 'sexual desire'? I'm waiting with bated breath for your response ...

Lust and sexual desire are the same. Love is the giving of oneself to the other person. Lust is taking from the other person in order to satisfy your sexual desire.

 

[Rex]

"Sin" appears to occupy much of your mind, Selene.

I'm beginning to think you experience some sort of sensuality by simple talking about homosexuality LOL.



It's certainly found occupancy in your mind