Is Jesus God?

[BroRando]

Is Jesus God?

Jesus said to him: “Why do you call Me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18) "Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42)

Question: He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” (Matthew 16:15)

What was Peter's Answer? “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16) Peter identifies Jesus as “the Christ” (Greek, ho Khri·stosʹ), a title equivalent to “the Messiah” (from Hebrew ma·shiʹach), both meaning “Anointed One.” Here “Christ” is preceded by the definite article in Greek, evidently as a way of emphasizing Jesus’ office as the Messiah.—See study notes on Mt 1:1; 2:4.

The Apostle Paul also gives witness about the ego'eimi . "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23)

"Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3) Why not study the following scriptures? Once the Son of Man set's you free, you really are Free! (John 8:36)

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[marks]

Is Jesus God?

What did Jesus' contemporaries think? Those who heard Him? What did He say to them?

John 10:30-33 KJV
30) I and my Father are one.
31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This seems to be your objection also, isn't it?

Much love!

 

[BroRando]

30) I and my Father are one.

Trinitarians often revert to modalism when they can't find a scripture that states, God is made up of three separate persons. They often quote "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)

However, earlier, Jesus Christ confronts his enemies who are seeking to kill him (John 5:18) whom marks deceptively calls Jesus contemporaries and (that we must believe those enemies who lie and spread rumors about Jesus Christ).

"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son," (John 5:22)


We see in Jesus Prayer to His Father he says, "I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:11) We see Jesus asking his Father to watch over them which proves (John 10:30 is not literal) but they become one just as we are one.

Jesus continues in Prayer to his Father, "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:22) Again this proves that (John 10:30 is not in the literal sense.)

 

[GEN2REV]

I have seen your posts on this topic multiple times, BR. They are interesting, but I never can reconcile John 1:1 with them.

Also there are many dual verses throughout the Bible that say The Father did something, then in another part of scripture that Jesus did that very thing. (Will provide verses if needed)

Just curious what you make of these things.

Sincerely.

 

[Wrangler]

I never can reconcile John 1:1 with them.

Here are some points for your consideration:

1. The entire Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the whole Bible. He wrote at 20:31 that everything he wrote is to prove Jesus is the Messiah. Logically, this means none of his Gospel can be used to support any other purpose, including 1:1.
2. Jesus tells us @ 17:3 that his Father is the only true God.
3. In other places Jesus says he was sent, says only what God tells him, God is greater and knows more than him.
4. Jesus is not even mentioned in 1:1. Trinitarians have indoctrinated people that WHATS are WHO’s. That is, a word is not a being but an attribute of being.
5. Finally, the proper way to interpret 1:1 is through Deuteronomy 18:15-18. God said he’d select a man and put His words in that selected man’s mouth.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wrangler]

there are many dual verses throughout the Bible that say The Father did something, then in another part of scripture that Jesus did that very thing. (Will provide verses if needed)

Just curious what you make of these things.

Because the Bible often speaks in terms of Being A does things through Being B. We speak this way today. For instance, we say Hitler killed 4M Jews, when he actually killed no one. He killed through others.

Hope this helps.

 

[BroRando]

I have seen your posts on this topic multiple times, BR. They are interesting, but I never can reconcile John 1:1 with them.

Also there are many dual verses throughout the Bible that say The Father did something, then in another part of scripture that Jesus did that very thing. (Will provide verses if needed)

Just curious what you make of these things.

Sincerely.

John 1:1 in its current corrupted state won't be reconciled with other scriptures, that's how you can tell it doesn't belong. The little 'a' can be a stumbling block or a stepping stone to the Christ.

Compare to it to Jesus being the Christ the son of the living God at (Matthew 16:16) It doesn't fit.
Compare to it to “Why do you call Me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18) It doesn't fit.
Compare to it to "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3) It doesn't fit.

The oldest Greek manuscript on record is the Coptic Greek from the 8th century. Earlier ones are hidden or have been destroyed. They don't see the light of day. Notice in the green box is 'a god'. However, when translated it is rendered in a corrupt manner as God. We see with God (ton theon) but Greek uses (theos) in the second instance. Two different Greek Words are used to show their meanings. Once you understand the deception then all the other scriptures are easily reconciled.


So is God (Firstborn of All Creation) or is God eternal?
Was God Begotten or or is he eternal?

 

[GEN2REV]

The entire Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the whole Bible. He wrote at 20:31 that everything he wrote is to prove Jesus is the Messiah. Logically, this means none of his Gospel can be used to support any other purpose, including 1:1.

I can't see how this totally invalidates 1:1.

[*]Jesus tells us @ 17:3 that his Father is the only true God.

[*]In other places Jesus says he was sent, says only what God tells him, God is greater and knows more than him.

When Jesus states that The Father is higher than He or that Jesus is subordinate, I believe it is because He was 'IN' the corruptible flesh at those moments of statement. He was not yet ascended or glorified yet. I believe this because Jesus makes clear that He is God/The Father in multiple other verses.

Matthew 11:27 If you know either The Son or The Father, you know both of them because they are ONE in the same.
John 8:58 In reference to Exodus 3:14 where God The Father stated the great 'I AM', Jesus states "I AM."
John 10:30 "I and The Father are ONE." (Couldn't be more clear than that.)
John 10:33 The Jews tried to stone Jesus for outright claiming to be God.
John 14:9 "... He that hath seen Me hath seen The Father; ..."
John 20:28 Jesus does not correct Thomas for calling Him God. As you pointed out, Jesus declares there is only ONE God, The Father.
Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 " ... our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Hebrews 1:8 The Father Himself refers to Jesus as God.
Revelation 19:10 We are instructed to only worship God.
Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17
Luke 24:52
John 9:38 All these verses show people worshiping Jesus as God and none are rebuked for it.

[*]Jesus is not even mentioned in 1:1. Trinitarians have indoctrinated people that WHATS are WHO’s. That is, a word is not a being but an attribute of being.

1:1 declares unequivocally that The Word IS God. 1:14 declares unequivocally that The Word is Jesus Christ, The Son of God - "the only begotten of The Father." So Jesus is clearly mentioned in 1:1.

[*]Finally, the proper way to interpret 1:1 is through Deuteronomy 18:15-18. God said he’d select a man and put His words in that selected man’s mouth.

What you seem to be claiming is that 1:1 is referring to all run-of-the-mill prophets, not Jesus. I think my post has accurately refuted that.

Hope we can find some common ground.

God bless.

 

[GEN2REV]

Compare to it to Jesus being the Christ the son of the living God at (Matthew 16:16) It doesn't fit.

God was born into flesh, becoming the Son, first begotten of the Spirit Source God.

Compare to it to “Why do you call Me good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18) It doesn't fit.

Jesus was a man in the corruptible flesh at that time.

Compare to it to "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3) It doesn't fit.

Again, Jesus was the physical corruptible flesh incarnation of God. And Lord means Master. Jesus 'mastered' living in the human flesh form, He lived a 100% sinless life like no other man ever has or will. So, praise God The Father of the flesh example that mastered being human.

So is God (Firstborn of All Creation) or is God eternal?
Was God Begotten or or is he eternal?

I don't know why so many need to limit the Limitless. He is all these things.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I can understand some of your confusion. To fully understand this will require some deep study and word searching beyond the general use of an English translation and a basic Concordance along with contextual and usage studies to get the true meaning and significance of whats written here..

When Jesus states that The Father is higher than He or that Jesus is subordinate, I believe it is because He was 'IN' the corruptible flesh at those moments of statement. He was not yet ascended or glorified yet. I believe this because Jesus makes clear that He is God/The Father in multiple other verses.

Jesus NEVER said or implied he either 'was' or was "equal" to the Father. Even in Heaven, He sits on the "right hand" ( a subordinate deputy position)

1:1 declares unequivocally that The Word IS God. 1:14 declares unequivocally that The Word is Jesus Christ, The Son of God - "the only begotten of The Father." So Jesus is clearly mentioned in 1:1.

Part of that is translational and the other is transliterational. "Theos" is a "god" by definition (a divine being) but it is missing G3588 (oh) which differentiates between the 'supreme" God.

This is a deep study and all information cant be given in a thread

Jesus "is" God but Jesus is NOT "The Father" or "supreme" God. Its allegorical in a way to the "chief angel" is still an angel. The author of John also makes it clear that jesus was the "logos" ( voice or representative like a crier) of God- not the Father.

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus NEVER said or implied he either 'was' or was "equal" to the Father. Even in Heaven, He sits on the "right hand" ( a subordinate deputy position)

I just posted FIFTEEN verses to the contrary in Post #8 and you're claiming those verses don't exist?

Ok.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I just posted FIFTEEN verses to the contrary in Post #8 and you're claiming those verses don't exist?

No, you posted 15 English translations that are misapplied and misunderstood by you that i explained the reason why in general detail.

Lets take your first one in Matthew. The "one' in that in proper context means in "unison" as in an ideal- not a singular entity in as much as 2 people of "one mind"

Next John. "I am". That's a statement of pre-existence which Jesus clearly was but God also said "I am that i am ( self existent) and Jesus didn't.

John 10:30- already explained

10:33- they are voicing their opinion- thats not a statement about Jesus

and so on- each one is in serious contextual error as you have applied them.

 

[GEN2REV]

No, you posted 15 English translations that are misapplied and misunderstood by you that i explained the reason why in general detail.

… - each one is in serious contextual error as you have applied them.

Well, my friend, once you start going down that road, you completely invalidate your own position as well.

If we can't stand upon scripture, as it is written, then neither of us have a foundation to build our respective positions of debate.

You can't invalidate my foundation, that being scripture, while standing upon scripture yourself to say I'm wrong.

I could just as easily tell you that God's Right Hand is only a symbol of His strength and creative power, not an individual entity.

If your entire strategy of debate is to invalidate the Bible, then debating with you just becomes a veritable goat rope.

Clearly you have a very defined agenda against the stated point of contention and refuse to even consider any possible data to the contrary.

God bless.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Well, my friend, once you start going down that road, you completely invalidate your own position as well.

No, nothing of the sort and i can validate my positions in great detail

If we can't stand upon scripture, as it is written, then neither of us have a foundation to build our respective positions of debate.

Straw man. Scripture "as written" (unless one is a Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic Scholar) requires translation, transliteration and both a contextual

and cultural read. The English translation as a stand alone source has numerous well known deficiencies and weaknesses in translation.

You can't invalidate my foundation, that being scripture, while standing upon scripture yourself to say I'm wrong.

I didn't invalidate -I corrected

I could just as easily tell you that God's Right Hand is a symbol of His strength and creative power, not an individual entity.

You can make up anything you chose but that doesn't give it legitimate scriptural substance and support.

If your entire strategy of debate is to invalidate the Bible, then debating with you just becomes a veritable goat rope.

Not to invalidate but to state it correctly for the purposes of education, edification, reproof etc.

Clearly you have a very defined agenda against the stated point of contention and refuse to even consider any possible data to the contrary.

No, I have presented an accurate and verifiable correction to the points you raised. I will consider anything you wish to present but once presented it will have to stand upon its own merits against legitimate scriptural discernment.

Are you prepared for that?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What did Jesus' contemporaries think? Those who heard Him? What did He say to them?

John 10:30-33 KJV
30) I and my Father are one.
31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This seems to be your objection also, isn't it?

Much love!

You should start with verse 24 of John chapter ten, John 10: 24-36
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Nowhere in these particular scriptures does Jesus Christ say he is the Father.
Elsewhere in the scriptures they make it clear that Jesus who is the Only Begotten Son of God has a Father and God. Even when the Only-Begotten Son of God is back in heaven the book of Revelation shows that the Only-Begotten Son of God has a God. So for anyone to interpret that the scripture that says, I and the Father are one to mean that Jesus and the Father are the same person are mistaken because Jesus wasn't saying he was the Father.

 

[Enoch111]

I have seen your posts on this topic multiple times, BR. They are interesting, but I never can reconcile John 1:1 with them.

Recently some Jehovah's Witnesses and other Anti-Trinitarian cultists have decided that CB is a good forum to promote their heresies, since there is no censorship here (which is fine if we support free speech).

Indeed they are DESPERATE to convince Christians that they have the truth, when all it is is heresy -- false doctrine. Hence so many threads on the same topic. They may also be hoping to convert someone who is not solidly grounded in Scripture.

At the same time the Lord Jesus Christ (who is God manifest in the flesh) has warned Christians about wolves in sheep's clothing. And that is the designation of all false teachers and cultists.

There is absolutely no question that the Bible teaches the doctrines of the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. Indeed Jesus clearly stated to His enemies that unless they believed that He is the "I AM" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- they would all die in their sins (and de damned).

 

[kcnalp]

You should start with verse 24 of John chapter ten, John 10: 24-36
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Nowhere in these particular scriptures does Jesus Christ say he is the Father.
Elsewhere in the scriptures they make it clear that Jesus who is the Only Begotten Son of God has a Father and God. Even when the Only-Begotten Son of God is back in heaven the book of Revelation shows that the Only-Begotten Son of God has a God. So for anyone to interpret that the scripture that says, I and the Father are one to mean that Jesus and the Father are the same person are mistaken because Jesus wasn't saying he was the Father.

Did Kingdom Hall convince you that you're a god?

John 14:9 (NKJV)
9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

Amen Jesus!

 

[BroRando]

Recently some Jehovah's Witnesses and other Anti-Trinitarian cultists have decided that CB is a good forum to promote their heresies, since there is no censorship here (which is fine if we support free speech).

Indeed they are DESPERATE to convince Christians that they have the truth, when all it is is heresy -- false doctrine. Hence so many threads on the same topic. They may also be hoping to convert someone who is not solidly grounded in Scripture.

At the same time the Lord Jesus Christ (who is God manifest in the flesh) has warned Christians about wolves in sheep's clothing. And that is the designation of all false teachers and cultists.

There is absolutely no question that the Bible teaches the doctrines of the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. Indeed Jesus clearly stated to His enemies that unless they believed that He is the "I AM" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- they would all die in their sins (and de damned).

Trinitarians often turn to Personal Attacks when they can't show a single scripture of three sperate persons make up God. Now they lie about Jesus Christ claiming he said he was God? The Apostle Paul admitted that Christ is the angel of God and called him the I am...(Acts 27:23)

If you refuse to believe in their man-made doctrine, then they call your faith a Cult.... when they point their finger at you... they bear witness about themselves 3 x as much! So who really is in the Cult? A denier of Jesus Christ or the ones bearing witness about Jesus being the Christ the son of the living God? (Matthew 16:16)

 

[GEN2REV]

There is no such verse where Jesus claims to be God.

There are a number of you on these Christian forums that are working in concert to deny the deity of Jesus Christ in an attempt to train up the younger Christians into abhorrent False Doctrine. Denying the deity of Christ negates ALL of His most significant accomplishments.

The absolute Lunacy of the matter is that there are many verses to the contrary that EXIST and are PRESENTED repeatedly, ANYBODY can find them in their Bible.

They are NOT mis-applied. They are NOT mis-translated. They do NOT contain "serious contextual error."

Those claims are absolutely PREPOSTEROUS.

If you want to be taken seriously here by anybody that is not yourself under another screen name, take each of the 15 verses that have been presented in post #8, one at a time, and show exactly how they are different in the greek, hebrew, whatever.

PROVE that those verses do not refute your argument.

Jesus claimed to be God many times, many ways.

Your mother and I being on the same page does not mean we are one in the same being. John 17:21 says we too are one with God. That does not make us God.

Absolutely bizarre and totally random reference to my mother.

Instigate for no apparent reason much??

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

f you want to be taken seriously here by anybody that is not yourself under another screen name, take each of the 15 verses that have been presented in post #8, one at a time, and show exactly how they are different in the greek, hebrew, whatever.

PROVE that those verses do not refute your argument.

again?