IS JESUS' SACRIFICE ETERNAL?

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

The conclusion revolves around the meaning of the NT Greek , aiwnios (eternal).

What's the meaning of 'eternal' destruction, for example, in 2 Thess 1:9?

Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek lexicon studied aiwnios from the time of the Septuagint. It concluded that it means ‘eternal’ and in many passages, including Matt. 25:46, it means ‘without end … eternal life’ (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).

Exegete Richard Lenski explained further regarding 2 Thess 1:9:

Those who find annihilation in it [destruction] would thereby abolish hell, others misunderstand aiwnios and reduce it to a long term which, however, eventually ends. There is no time beyond the last day, either short or long, but only timelessness, eternity, "the eon to come"; this is what the adjective [aiwnios] means, which is true of the zwe or "life" of the blessed as it is true of the "destruction" of the damned. The destruction occurs "away from the Lord's face" and thus in the outer darkness (Lenski 1937:388-389).​

Since the opportunity to take advantage of responding to the Gospel is only in this life on earth, the result of Jesus' sacrifice will be experienced in the timelessness of eternity - either in life or damnation.

Is this what you are driving at or are you addressing a different topic?

Oz

Works consulted

Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Lenski, R C H 1937/1946/1961/2001. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. Paul’s epistles to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, to Timothy, to Titus, and to Philemon. [Lutheran Book Concern 1937; The Wartburg Press 1945; Augsburg Publishing House 1961; Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers Inc. 2001, limited edition].

I'm not sure what I'm addressing Oz!
This is a new thought to me and I haven't thought of it enough.

I did want to get other person's thoughts on it.
Haven't even answered them yet because I can't get my thoughts together, but it's something that seemed interesting to me.

We say that even the O.T. persons were saved by faith but by the sacrifice of Jesus which had not even happened yet.

So are FUTURE persons saved because in the PAST Jesus died on the cross...
or is His sacrifice ONGOING in some way.

If His sacrifice was valid for those in the pre-cross days...
What makes it be valid for the post-cross days...
Maybe it lives through time; maybe it's not a one time happening.
He died once and for all could just mean that nothing else is necessary anymore.

One poster thought I was referring to the catholic Mass...this is NOT what I'm referring to. Maybe it's just too difficult to talk about time and timelessness.

@Enoch111
@Frank Lee
@bbyrd009
@CoreIssue
@Episkopos
@brakelite

 

[CoreIssue]

I'm not sure what I'm addressing Oz!
This is a new thought to me and I haven't thought of it enough.

I did want to get other person's thoughts on it.
Haven't even answered them yet because I can't get my thoughts together, but it's something that seemed interesting to me.

We say that even the O.T. persons were saved by faith but by the sacrifice of Jesus which had not even happened yet.

So are FUTURE persons saved because in the PAST Jesus died on the cross...
or is His sacrifice ONGOING in some way.

If His sacrifice was valid for those in the pre-cross days...
What makes it be valid for the post-cross days...
Maybe it lives through time; maybe it's not a one time happening.
He died once and for all could just mean that nothing else is necessary anymore.

One poster thought I was referring to the catholic Mass...this is NOT what I'm referring to. Maybe it's just too difficult to talk about time and timelessness.

@Enoch111
@Frank Lee
@bbyrd009
@CoreIssue
@Episkopos
@brakelite

In the old testament the sacrificial lamb temporarily covered sin in anticipation of Christ. So it was looking forward.

As said in Romans 8 God, before Adam, you every one who would love him and pre destined them all to way to glorification. Again looking forward.

I cannot tell you how he does it. All I can tell you is he does it.

I cannot tell you how God can be beginningless. But he is.

With the good things through a dark glass. I don't even know if in eternity we will understand.

But it doesn't matter. God is God and it's all on his hands. Good enough for me.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not sure what I'm addressing Oz!
This is a new thought to me and I haven't thought of it enough.

I did want to get other person's thoughts on it.
Haven't even answered them yet because I can't get my thoughts together, but it's something that seemed interesting to me.

We say that even the O.T. persons were saved by faith but by the sacrifice of Jesus which had not even happened yet.

So are FUTURE persons saved because in the PAST Jesus died on the cross...
or is His sacrifice ONGOING in some way.

If His sacrifice was valid for those in the pre-cross days...
What makes it be valid for the post-cross days...
Maybe it lives through time; maybe it's not a one time happening.
He died once and for all could just mean that nothing else is necessary anymore.

One poster thought I was referring to the catholic Mass...this is NOT what I'm referring to. Maybe it's just too difficult to talk about time and timelessness.

@Enoch111
@Frank Lee
@bbyrd009
@CoreIssue
@Episkopos
@brakelite

Godsgrace,

This may help: What was the Old Testament way of salvation? - Got Questions?

Oz

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not sure what I'm addressing Oz!
This is a new thought to me and I haven't thought of it enough.

I did want to get other person's thoughts on it.
Haven't even answered them yet because I can't get my thoughts together, but it's something that seemed interesting to me.

We say that even the O.T. persons were saved by faith but by the sacrifice of Jesus which had not even happened yet.

So are FUTURE persons saved because in the PAST Jesus died on the cross...
or is His sacrifice ONGOING in some way.

If His sacrifice was valid for those in the pre-cross days...
What makes it be valid for the post-cross days...
Maybe it lives through time; maybe it's not a one time happening.
He died once and for all could just mean that nothing else is necessary anymore.

One poster thought I was referring to the catholic Mass...this is NOT what I'm referring to. Maybe it's just too difficult to talk about time and timelessness.

@Enoch111
@Frank Lee
@bbyrd009
@CoreIssue
@Episkopos
@brakelite

TAG

 

[Enoch111]

So are FUTURE persons saved because in the PAST Jesus died on the cross...

Absolutely. Time does not limit the power of the shed blood of Christ, or the impact of His sacrifice on sinners and saints alike.

...or is His sacrifice ONGOING in some way.

How can it be *on-going* when Christ is now exalted at the right hand of the Father and *ever liveth* to make intercession for us?

Christians should understand the perfection and FINALITY of the finished work of Christ on the Cross. There is nothing more to be done, and anyone who claims or teaches that something else needs to be done is promoting false doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

Godsgrace,

This may help: What was the Old Testament way of salvation? - Got Questions?

Oz

Read it.
Hmmm. Not what I'm getting at..
But thanks...
I think we went beyond this with your replies anyway...

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely. Time does not limit the power of the shed blood of Christ, or the impact of His sacrifice on sinners and saints alike.

How can it be *on-going* when Christ is now exalted at the right hand of the Father and *ever liveth* to make intercession for us?

Christians should understand the perfection and FINALITY of the finished work of Christ on the Cross. There is nothing more to be done, and anyone who claims or teaches that something else needs to be done is promoting false doctrine.

Yes. I agree with this 100%.

So the sacrifice does not "live in time".
It happened in the past, stays in the past, and is "used" by future generations that come to believe in Christ.

I've also been considering the word "process".

A process is ongoing...it has a beginning, a middle and an end.
Jesus' sacrifice was ongoing in the sense that it had always been planned and everything would culminate with His death.

Once that death occurred, the "process" ended.

AND, God DID get involved in our time.
Jesus lived in our time! (clock time, as bb would say)
He was born, lived and died. Like a human.

So the RESULT is eternal, (anyone at any time can be saved by His sacrifice)
but the PROCESS has ended and does not live, or continue on, in OUR time.

 

[Nancy]

i plainly labelled that a perspective, GG

eternal does not mean forever, except from a perspective
eons have endings, as do "eternities"

"eternal" is an English term iow, not a Scriptural term, the way we define it now

strictly an illusion based upon perception, as Einstein has proven.
Time is a completely subjective thing, limited to humans, who are after all deceived

What about the word "everlasting"? It's basically a synonym of "eternal". I don't agree with that, as I have come to believe that "eternity" has no beginning and has no end. Is it not spiritual vs physical maybe? "From the beginning..." Can that not be taken as the beginning of "time"? Eternity has always been...just like God.

 

[bbyrd009]

What about the word "everlasting"? It's basically a synonym of "eternal". I don't agree with that, as I have come to believe that "eternity" has no beginning and has no end. Is it not spiritual vs physical maybe? "From the beginning..." Can that not be taken as the beginning of "time"? Eternity has always been...just like God.

imo you have come to believe eternal means forever bc that is what you have been progged to define it as, and pls don't take that wrong ok. If everyone you know is saying A=1 and keeps saying it then why challenge it right.

Eternities end, Nancy; or they do not. And i understand the implications in the knowledge that brings sorrow here, ok, and fwiw what you are doing right now is gutsy as hell imo. That is a bottomless cliff, huh? Fwiw there was a big chunk of time in my life where i would get in trouble for even mentioning this eternity=eon thing, especially in certain circles--the Pentecostal ones who should have known the most imo--and i would have felt compelled to warn you that even contemplating this could cost you all your friends. Would they even blink now?

 

[Nancy]

imo you have come to believe eternal means forever bc that is what you have been progged to define it as, and pls don't take that wrong ok. If everyone you know is saying A=1 and keeps saying it then why challenge it right.

Eternities end, Nancy; or they do not. And i understand the implications in the knowledge that brings sorrow here, ok, and fwiw what you are doing right now is gutsy as hell imo. That is a bottomless cliff, huh? Fwiw there was a big chunk of time in my life where i would get in trouble for even mentioning this eternity=eon thing, especially in certain circles--the Pentecostal ones who should have known the most imo--and i would have felt compelled to warn you that even contemplating this could cost you all your friends. Would they even blink now?

Either way, forever and ever without end, dies not matter to me so much. I will serve Him regardless ♥

 

[bbyrd009]

Either way, forever and ever without end, dies not matter to me so much. I will serve Him regardless ♥

We are cock-sure, i tell you, and not only that, would much prefer to be absent from the body and present with the Lord right this second, i guess.

Unfortunately the difficulty--meaning impossibility--of serving God while holding this opinion is not so easy to see

 

[amadeus]

but Sodom's fires are said to be burning for eternity, was the point i guess

That which accomplishes the burning is always there or here. What is it that will burn when this "eternal" fire is applied to it?

"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I Cor 3:11-15

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

When we, each of us, has passed through the fire what will remain? For most the answer is nothing at all. But will not some few be like the bush that burned in the sight of Moses without being consumed? How is it that a person gets to such a place?

The foundation which a person has determines if anything at all will remain.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matt 7:24-27

The proper foundation as per I Cor 3:11 quoted above is Jesus. Without that it matters not what we use as building blocks. But with that proper foundation, then the building blocks matter. The flammable ones will be gone: wood, hay and stubble.

 

[Enoch111]

Eternities end, Nancy; or they do not.

If eternities end, then by definition they are NOT eternal. They are temporary, and calling them eternities would be a misnomer.

No, sir, "eternity" means "having no end" -- existing for ever and ever.

 

[GodsGrace]

imo you have come to believe eternal means forever bc that is what you have been progged to define it as, and pls don't take that wrong ok. If everyone you know is saying A=1 and keeps saying it then why challenge it right.

Eternities end, Nancy; or they do not. And i understand the implications in the knowledge that brings sorrow here, ok, and fwiw what you are doing right now is gutsy as hell imo. That is a bottomless cliff, huh? Fwiw there was a big chunk of time in my life where i would get in trouble for even mentioning this eternity=eon thing, especially in certain circles--the Pentecostal ones who should have known the most imo--and i would have felt compelled to warn you that even contemplating this could cost you all your friends. Would they even blink now?

We say God existed forever.
Do you think God had a beginning?
If God had a beginning, then He's not eternal.

 

[GodsGrace]

@bb
I think it was you who stated that the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning. I read it just before and can't find this. Could you post the verse??

 

[bbyrd009]

If eternities end, then by definition they are NOT eternal. They are temporary, and calling them eternities would be a misnomer.

No, sir, "eternity" means "having no end" -- existing for ever and ever.

ya, good one bro

doubledown on that imo, and to hell with Strong's, works for me

 

[bbyrd009]

We say God existed forever.

He alone is immortal, sure

Do you think God had a beginning? If God had a beginning, then He's not eternal.

from eternity to eternity, God is

GG eons will not ever become forevers no matter how much you want them to, imo
but this does not mean that you have to believe it, not at all.
Aeons have still passed regardless, and the Bible even discusses them,
only you don't even have a term for eons now, i guess

 

[GodsGrace]

He alone is immortal, sure
from eternity to eternity, God is

GG eons will not ever become forevers no matter how much you want them to, imo
but this does not mean that you have to believe it, not at all.
Aeons have still passed regardless, and the Bible even discusses them,
only you don't even have a term for eons now, i guess

Here's the meaning of aeon:

aeon
/ˈiːən/
noun
noun: eon

1. 1.
   an indefinite and very long period of time.
   "he reached the crag aeons before I arrived"
   • 
     
2. 2.
   PHILOSOPHY
   (in Neoplatonism, Platonism, and Gnosticism) a power existing from eternity; an emanation or phase of the supreme deity.

Don't you think aeon means something different than eternal??

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't you think aeon means something different than eternal??

ha who cares what i think GG, i don't think anything ok, honest, i have ezackly zero thoughts on the matter now
but fwiw i used to believe that eternal meant forever too, sure
back when i was singing "When we all get to heaven"

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from aión

and fwiw i still believe eternal means forever, too
from a certain common perspective

 

[GodsGrace]

ha who cares what i think GG, i don't think anything ok, honest, i have ezackly zero thoughts on the matter now
but fwiw i used to believe that eternal meant forever too, sure
back when i was singing "When we all get to heaven"

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from aión

and fwiw i still believe eternal means forever, too
from a certain common perspective

bb
Don't you believe in heaven?