Is knowing what death is a comfort?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
943
280
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bob, you seem to believe that Adam & Eve's sin caught God by surprise. That God had to come up with plan B because His plan A failed? That totally obliterates the Sovereign Providence of God. If sin of man forced God to go to plan B as you suppose, He would not have provided a way for mankind to be redeemed, and eternally saved through Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. You say God did not fail, then imply He did indeed fail because He had to "make a detour to get it done"! That is absurd!
(...)
The way you said it really seems very absurd. BUT it is not that simple you want to make it look, and obviously you need to consider other edges of the total figure, like:

What if: God is not always looking in direction of what people would do in the future?

Why did Jesus send his disciples to preach at this time if they already have a list of who are going to oppose his message? Isn't that "absurd"?

When God invites others to repent and change their way of life and have a chance to be saved from the destruction of the wicked and live forever, is he just playing with them?

Or: If God knew everything that Adam and Eve would do to their descendants, including those of us living today, wouldn't that make him directly responsible for allowing so much human suffering?
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Like I replied to an earlier statement from you, God's word does not contradict sir, if it does it is our understanding that is flawed.

New heavens and new earth is not literal, as there is no defect in either, they will be cleansed. The heavens are already cleansed and therefore the new heavens are in place. satan and the demons have been cast out, and now reside on the earth, however shortly they will be removed from the earth and locked away in an abyss for 1 millennium, but the new earth is not yet fully established, as satan will once again be allowed to roam the earth for a short time. Rev 20:7-9 then when verse 10 is fulfilled, the new earth will be fully established.

I know that God's Word does not contradict Bob! It is by your interpretation of the Scriptures that force contradiction of your interpretation of the Scripture. As I stated in my last reply #380 your doctrine demands one thousand more years of time for this earth after Christ returns. Even though you cannot biblically prove your opinions here, you continue to promote and defend while forcing contradiction into the Word of God through your interpretation.

What Scripture says "the heavens are already cleansed and therefore the new heavens are in place"?

Satan is bound for a thousand years, which is the same time when the martyred souls John sees in heaven lived and reigned with Christ before being martyred. It's also the same amount of time when others, called "blessed and holy" and "hath part in the first resurrection" "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

A/the thousand years clearly equates to TIME. Time exists on this earth, and this particular TIME, likened to a thousand years began when Satan was bound. Clearly Satan's binding during this TIME does not prevent these living souls from being faithful unto death, nor does His binding keep those blessed and holy from having part in the first resurrection, on such the second death hath no power. These are those who shall be saved in TIME who have not yet had part in the first resurrection, because they are not among those martyred for faith, yet they are still blessed and holy will have part in the first resurrection in life, through the resurrection of Christ, during this time which is TIME likened to a thousand years.

Revelation 20:3-4 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After this TIME, likened to the thousand years are expired, Satan has his "little season" to gather together Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian) from throughout the four quarters of the earth, surround the saints still alive during Satan's "little season", and fire comes down from God out of heaven and devoured them. But the fire from heaven will not come down until the saints are called up to meet the Lord in the air until the fiery wrath of God is finished. Then this earth and all on it will be burned up and God will make all things new again.

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
943
280
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Some "Christians" who do not study the Bible much believe that the promise of new heavens and a new earth found in 2 Pet. 3:13 and in Rev. 21:1, implies a destruction of the planet and the creation of a new one.

But because they are the same ones who teach that you should not study the pre-Christian Jewish Scriptures, they have never heard that the prophecies for the Jews already speak of the promise of "new heavens and a new earth" for them:

Is. 65:17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.
18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating. (...)

When and how was that prophecy realized in its first fulfillment in the case of God's people before Christ? Were heaven and earth literally destroyed?
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,675
13,051
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks Taken, I appreciate that for sure. It does amaze me how many believe that all you have to do for salvation is believe.

That gets confusing.
Most Christians in my view are bored silly with the OT and search the NT for all their wondering questions....or better yet want someone to give the understanding and get back to the party.

Salvation is about Saving the Soul.
The body is not Saved, it dies.
The natural spirit is circumcised, cut off.

No souls ARE saved...until a bodily death occurs.

OT men, who truly believed...Received their Salvation the moment their Living soul departed out of their dead body.

Body’ blood stops flowing...body dies....rots, returns to dust.
Soul belongs to God.
Life in soul belongs to God.
Gods life does not die.
Gods “souls” with life, with (Belief”, Saved go to rest in comfort.
...4,000 years rested in a pleasant side of hell.
...for last 2,000 go straight up to Heaven.
( none could leave...until after Jesus’ soul left.
He first in all things)

...and the departed living unsaved soul...sent to the miserable side of hell...still continues.

The division between the two sides in Hell?
A great gulf...one could not pass to the other side.
Comfort side...tree of life...called paradise.

Now comfort of saved in Heaven...tree of life there now...noe there called paradise.

After millennial reign...new earth...tree of life will be on earth...and be paradise...same on earth as in heaven...same exclusive holy occupants.

2,000 years ago Jesus “paid for”....and Offered “ to All men” a new Covenant...
Meaning...Gods acceptance of Fulfillment...According to Gods WAY...could be fulfilled....Before a mans physical death!!! <<<<<-phenomenal!!!

The Way....
* True Belief in one’s heart. <—-> That’s is Works (& Dead Without Faith)
* CONFESSION of true Belief. <—-> That is a mans reasonabalService.

Gods response?
Mans Heart Check!

Huh?

The natural heart IS where a mans natural spirit is:
Huh?
What is natural spirit of man?
True Truth in his heart (regardless of truth, lies, deception, conniving in his carnal mind) the heart hold the mans truth.)

God requires your truthful belief, your truthful confession....and CHECKsS (ie Searches the heart)....verifies....Before ....Giving Salvation of the soul....
And Before Quickening....aka....giving a man a heart circumcision....cutting off the old....giving that man a new heart....His Seed...birthing that man a new SPIRITUAL spirit....a new Truth IN the man...
Called: these things...
Forgiven (for Sin Against God...hav’en Not Believed)
Born Again,
Converted,
Saved,
Crucified with Christ, (Remember...Dead body required?)
Christ’s Church
Christ’s Bride
Washed, ( Jesus’ Blood)
Sanctified (set apart)
Covered ( Gods Spirit in you. God IS Light...sin.darkness overcome, unseen)
Justified (sealed..only can be risen up, redeemed, claimed, by the power of God....
Saints...(Born Again Believers) Occupy Christ’s millennial kingdom
Are “In” Christ...Christ “in” them....
Meaning? You are living IN Jesus’ Risen Body.


Ok so Believers
....but not converted ...ie. not having made a (heart) confession...
IF they bodily died in UN Confessed BELIEF....
Their soul will be saved...depart go to heaven...wait.
Their Spirit quickened WHEN, their body is raised up.
When? After Tribulation, After millennial reign, After earth burned, After anti-God mortals dead, anti-demons cast into lake of Fire....
God shall raise them up in their new body’s/ spirit....Great White Throne Judgement..&. New Earth.


Those ^^^ are repeatedly Warned....They can at any time during their lifetime be persuaded to not believe....Remember roaming demons...wicked men?

So men CAN be saved IF they are not converted....but Believe in their heart the moment they bodily die....

@Robert Gwin
Sometimes you wonder what their motives are. There are two people on another religion site that I post on, who literally don't even believe in God, but they will not reveal why they post, but it is clear to see their agenda, to pull believers away from God.

There are many who do not read, do verify what they hear, don’t hear the gospel, but rather opinions of others unlearned....and many foot-soldiers FOR Satan....similar as a trendy fashion...to try homosexuality... stealing....sneaking...drugs...sex...etc. without a whim of Consequences.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The way you said it really seems very absurd. BUT it is not that simple you want to make it look, and obviously you need to consider other edges of the total figure, like:

What if: God is not always looking in direction of what people would do in the future?

Why did Jesus send his disciples to preach at this time if they already have a list of who are going to oppose his message? Isn't that "absurd"?

When God invites others to repent and change their way of life and have a chance to be saved from the destruction of the wicked and live forever, is he just playing with them?

Or: If God knew everything that Adam and Eve would do to their descendants, including those of us living today, wouldn't that make him directly responsible for allowing so much human suffering?

I refuse to play this "what if" game over God's Sovereignty and Providence over all of creation. How do you prove what the imagination of your heart and mind has conceived?

Isaiah 46:9-11 (KJV) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Romans 9:20-26 (KJV) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Some "Christians" who do not study the Bible much believe that the promise of new heavens and a new earth found in 2 Pet. 3:13 and in Rev. 21:1, implies a destruction of the planet and the creation of a new one.

But because they are the same ones who teach that you should not study the pre-Christian Jewish Scriptures, they have never heard that the prophecies for the Jews already speak of the promise of "new heavens and a new earth" for them:

Is. 65:17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.
18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating. (...)

When and how was that prophecy realized in its first fulfillment in the case of God's people before Christ? Were heaven and earth literally destroyed?

Revelation 21:1-5 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
943
280
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Salvation" could be out of many things, all harmful for us. A "savior" could even be a person who saves you from a heart attack, from respiratory arrest, from drowning, from a fire, from an abuser, etc. If a person has experienced any of these events, or others, he already knows what the word "salvation" naturally means.

In the Bible we are given a clear view of what it means God to send a savior to humans.

It happened on many occasions when the people of Israel began to disobey Jehovah and suffered the direct consequences of God's lack of protection. So, says Jewish history recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, they prayed to God to send someone to save them from their oppressors. We have many examples in the book of Judges, like this one:

Judg. 3:7 So the Israelites did what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, and they forgot Jehovah their God and were serving the Baals and the sacred poles. 8 At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Cushan-rishathaim the king of Mesopotamia. The Israelites served Cushan-rishathaim for eight years. 9 When the Israelites called to Jehovah for help, Jehovah raised up a savior to rescue the Israelites, Othniel the son of Kenaz, the younger brother of Caleb. 10 The spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and he became the judge of Israel. When he went out to battle, Jehovah gave Cushan-rishathaim the king of Mesopotamia into his hand so that he prevailed over Cushan-rishathaim. 11 After that the land had rest for 40 years. Then Othniel the son of Kenaz died.

Even though that happens once and again and again and again ...

Judges 3:12 And once again the Israelites began doing what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes.

... they all learned in the end that in the future Jehovah would send a savior who would do the whole job for them, and that they must accept him or be rejected outright. That was how Jehovah came to put in their minds the idea of the Messiah who would arrive in the future and would finally fulfill the role of the offspring of the woman in the prophecy of Gen. 3:15. People who do not study the pre-Christian Scriptures can not know about this.

Luke 2:11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
 

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
943
280
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I refuse to play this "what if" game over God's Sovereignty and Providence over all of creation. How do you prove what the imagination of your heart and mind has conceived?

Isaiah 46:9-11 (KJV) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Romans 9:20-26 (KJV) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
You are just another of the teachers of Christendom, no more, no less. Copying passages from the Bible is no indication that what you interpret from them is correct. All of Christendom's "teachers" do that...

It is thorough analysis of the Bible, with proper logical, unbiased, and honest reasoning, that enables sincere students to understand the truth behind what is written. With the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses I have learned many things that I can now share with others.

The teachers of Christendom spend a great deal of effort maintaining their own religious pride, and are unwilling to let sincere Bible students consider other more logical interpretative options and that do not contradict the other Scriptures, that they got in front of them...because they are afraid of losing followers... and of course: profits.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,675
13,051
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
New heavens and new earth is not literal, as there is no defect in either, they will be cleansed.
The Earths cleansing happened during the flood.
Cleansing is a washing...and the Earth returned to its former likeness.

The Earth shall be next burned, purified....new...not in its present look.

No seas...Terrain will not be as now...no dead plant life, pollution, corruption...

New is indicative of what you see now, it will not be.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
943
280
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Some "Christians" who do not study the Bible much believe that the promise of new heavens and a new earth found in 2 Pet. 3:13 and in Rev. 21:1, implies a destruction of the planet and the creation of a new one.

But because they are the same ones who teach that you should not study the pre-Christian Jewish Scriptures, they have never heard that the prophecies for the Jews already speak of the promise of "new heavens and a new earth" for them:

Is. 65:17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.
18 So exult and be joyful forever in what I am creating. (...)

When and how was that prophecy realized in its first fulfillment in the case of God's people before Christ? Were heaven and earth literally destroyed?
Isaiah finished his inspired book of prophecies after 732 BC. It took more than 100 years for the greatest misfortune that happened to the Israelites to occur: the conquest of Judah, the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. The land was devastated, and only a few poor people were left residing on it, until Jerusalem became a totally desolate place, without inhabitants.

Isaiah's prophecy of "new heavens and a new earth" extended still, it didn't happen until another 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, when the Medo-Persians gave the Jews permission to return to their land and rebuild the city.

It was then that little by little Jerusalem recovered its lost splendor. The city, its walls and the temple resurfaced again, as if it were a new land. She once again had rulers, priests, and guides for the repentant people... Those new leaders were like a new heaven on the new earth. Then Isaiah's prophecy, which had been fulfilled nearly 200 years later, came true: new inhabitants, new government.

If a person does not study the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures (OT), he does not understand these facts. So: does the prophecy of "new heavens and new earth" mean that the planet will be destroyed?
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do you continue to ignore what the verse literally says Bob? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven is NOT Thy kingdom come to this earth, and you clearly have to know that! So why does Christ say Thy Kingdom come since He also says, My Kingdom is NOT of this world? The Pharisees, like you, also asked Christ when the Kingdom of God should come. Christ's answer tells us why we are to pray "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as in heaven". Because His Kingdom NOW in this age is not observed through physical sight but is within you. Since we cannot physically know who has entered into His Kingdom NOW, we pray that His Kingdom might be complete (come) as those professing to belong to His Kingdom do His will while here on earth, just as His will is done in heaven. Because it is through being in His Kingdom within us that believers are sent unto all the earth with the Gospel. Because it is by hearing the Gospel and believing that man enters the Kingdom of God within you.

Matthew 6:10 (KJV) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The only reason that I can think of that one would continue to argue that the Kingdom of God will physically come to this earth, is because their doctrine, not the Scripture demands it.
The verse stated it and I believe it sir, where do you say it is coming to?

You quoted Luke 17:20,21 may I ask who Jesus said those verses to sir?
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The verse stated it and I believe it sir, where do you say it is coming to?

You quoted Luke 17:20,21 may I ask who Jesus said those verses to sir?

What verse stated it Robert?

Who do you think Jesus said those verses to Robert?
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know that God's Word does not contradict Bob! It is by your interpretation of the Scriptures that force contradiction of your interpretation of the Scripture. As I stated in my last reply #380 your doctrine demands one thousand more years of time for this earth after Christ returns. Even though you cannot biblically prove your opinions here, you continue to promote and defend while forcing contradiction into the Word of God through your interpretation.

What Scripture says "the heavens are already cleansed and therefore the new heavens are in place"?

Satan is bound for a thousand years, which is the same time when the martyred souls John sees in heaven lived and reigned with Christ before being martyred. It's also the same amount of time when others, called "blessed and holy" and "hath part in the first resurrection" "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

A/the thousand years clearly equates to TIME. Time exists on this earth, and this particular TIME, likened to a thousand years began when Satan was bound. Clearly Satan's binding during this TIME does not prevent these living souls from being faithful unto death, nor does His binding keep those blessed and holy from having part in the first resurrection, on such the second death hath no power. These are those who shall be saved in TIME who have not yet had part in the first resurrection, because they are not among those martyred for faith, yet they are still blessed and holy will have part in the first resurrection in life, through the resurrection of Christ, during this time which is TIME likened to a thousand years.

Revelation 20:3-4 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After this TIME, likened to the thousand years are expired, Satan has his "little season" to gather together Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian) from throughout the four quarters of the earth, surround the saints still alive during Satan's "little season", and fire comes down from God out of heaven and devoured them. But the fire from heaven will not come down until the saints are called up to meet the Lord in the air until the fiery wrath of God is finished. Then this earth and all on it will be burned up and God will make all things new again.

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I know that God's Word does not contradict Bob! It is by your interpretation of the Scriptures that force contradiction of your interpretation of the Scripture. As I stated in my last reply #380 your doctrine demands one thousand more years of time for this earth after Christ returns. Even though you cannot biblically prove your opinions here, you continue to promote and defend while forcing contradiction into the Word of God through your interpretation.

What Scripture says "the heavens are already cleansed and therefore the new heavens are in place"?

Satan is bound for a thousand years, which is the same time when the martyred souls John sees in heaven lived and reigned with Christ before being martyred. It's also the same amount of time when others, called "blessed and holy" and "hath part in the first resurrection" "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

A/the thousand years clearly equates to TIME. Time exists on this earth, and this particular TIME, likened to a thousand years began when Satan was bound. Clearly Satan's binding during this TIME does not prevent these living souls from being faithful unto death, nor does His binding keep those blessed and holy from having part in the first resurrection, on such the second death hath no power. These are those who shall be saved in TIME who have not yet had part in the first resurrection, because they are not among those martyred for faith, yet they are still blessed and holy will have part in the first resurrection in life, through the resurrection of Christ, during this time which is TIME likened to a thousand years.

Revelation 20:3-4 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After this TIME, likened to the thousand years are expired, Satan has his "little season" to gather together Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian) from throughout the four quarters of the earth, surround the saints still alive during Satan's "little season", and fire comes down from God out of heaven and devoured them. But the fire from heaven will not come down until the saints are called up to meet the Lord in the air until the fiery wrath of God is finished. Then this earth and all on it will be burned up and God will make all things new again.

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What Scripture says "the heavens are already cleansed and therefore the new heavens are in place"?
There is no Scripture that specifically states that sir, that is my opinion based on Rev 12:7-9, 12.

You may be correct I may be understanding it wrongly, but since satan and the demons no longer have access, the heavens are definitely cleansed. When satan and those who follow him are removed permanently, then the earth will be cleansed fully. satan no longer has access to the heavens, so they logically are cleansed, and one might reason when he is removed from the earth the earth is cleansed as well, but sinful humans will be undergoing resurrection and will not be resurrected perfect, rather will be educated by God during those thousand yrs, and it is at the end of those thousand years they come to life sir Rev 20:5, even then satan and his horde is not destroyed, so perhaps the new heaven and earth will become fulfilled at their demise. But as near as I can figure, satan will never be allowed access to heaven again at this time, so logically the new heavens exist now.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That gets confusing.
Most Christians in my view are bored silly with the OT and search the NT for all their wondering questions....or better yet want someone to give the understanding and get back to the party.

Salvation is about Saving the Soul.
The body is not Saved, it dies.
The natural spirit is circumcised, cut off.

No souls ARE saved...until a bodily death occurs.

OT men, who truly believed...Received their Salvation the moment their Living soul departed out of their dead body.

Body’ blood stops flowing...body dies....rots, returns to dust.
Soul belongs to God.
Life in soul belongs to God.
Gods life does not die.
Gods “souls” with life, with (Belief”, Saved go to rest in comfort.
...4,000 years rested in a pleasant side of hell.
...for last 2,000 go straight up to Heaven.
( none could leave...until after Jesus’ soul left.
He first in all things)

...and the departed living unsaved soul...sent to the miserable side of hell...still continues.

The division between the two sides in Hell?
A great gulf...one could not pass to the other side.
Comfort side...tree of life...called paradise.

Now comfort of saved in Heaven...tree of life there now...noe there called paradise.

After millennial reign...new earth...tree of life will be on earth...and be paradise...same on earth as in heaven...same exclusive holy occupants.

2,000 years ago Jesus “paid for”....and Offered “ to All men” a new Covenant...
Meaning...Gods acceptance of Fulfillment...According to Gods WAY...could be fulfilled....Before a mans physical death!!! <<<<<-phenomenal!!!

The Way....
* True Belief in one’s heart. <—-> That’s is Works (& Dead Without Faith)
* CONFESSION of true Belief. <—-> That is a mans reasonabalService.

Gods response?
Mans Heart Check!

Huh?

The natural heart IS where a mans natural spirit is:
Huh?
What is natural spirit of man?
True Truth in his heart (regardless of truth, lies, deception, conniving in his carnal mind) the heart hold the mans truth.)

God requires your truthful belief, your truthful confession....and CHECKsS (ie Searches the heart)....verifies....Before ....Giving Salvation of the soul....
And Before Quickening....aka....giving a man a heart circumcision....cutting off the old....giving that man a new heart....His Seed...birthing that man a new SPIRITUAL spirit....a new Truth IN the man...
Called: these things...
Forgiven (for Sin Against God...hav’en Not Believed)
Born Again,
Converted,
Saved,
Crucified with Christ, (Remember...Dead body required?)
Christ’s Church
Christ’s Bride
Washed, ( Jesus’ Blood)
Sanctified (set apart)
Covered ( Gods Spirit in you. God IS Light...sin.darkness overcome, unseen)
Justified (sealed..only can be risen up, redeemed, claimed, by the power of God....
Saints...(Born Again Believers) Occupy Christ’s millennial kingdom
Are “In” Christ...Christ “in” them....
Meaning? You are living IN Jesus’ Risen Body.


Ok so Believers
....but not converted ...ie. not having made a (heart) confession...
IF they bodily died in UN Confessed BELIEF....
Their soul will be saved...depart go to heaven...wait.
Their Spirit quickened WHEN, their body is raised up.
When? After Tribulation, After millennial reign, After earth burned, After anti-God mortals dead, anti-demons cast into lake of Fire....
God shall raise them up in their new body’s/ spirit....Great White Throne Judgement..&. New Earth.


Those ^^^ are repeatedly Warned....They can at any time during their lifetime be persuaded to not believe....Remember roaming demons...wicked men?

So men CAN be saved IF they are not converted....but Believe in their heart the moment they bodily die....

@Robert Gwin
Sometimes you wonder what their motives are. There are two people on another religion site that I post on, who literally don't even believe in God, but they will not reveal why they post, but it is clear to see their agenda, to pull believers away from God.

There are many who do not read, do verify what they hear, don’t hear the gospel, but rather opinions of others unlearned....and many foot-soldiers FOR Satan....similar as a trendy fashion...to try homosexuality... stealing....sneaking...drugs...sex...etc. without a whim of Consequences.

Glory to God,
Taken
Salvation is about Saving the Soul.
The body is not Saved, it dies.
satan says you will not die, God stated you will. God defined death in His word the Bible, nothing lives on, you are not conscious of anything, just as before you were born. I am going to have to side with God on this one, and side with Paul on a Christians hope is in the resurrection.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Earths cleansing happened during the flood.
Cleansing is a washing...and the Earth returned to its former likeness.

The Earth shall be next burned, purified....new...not in its present look.

No seas...Terrain will not be as now...no dead plant life, pollution, corruption...

New is indicative of what you see now, it will not be.

Glory to God,
Taken
Yes the earth's cleansing did happen once in the flood I agree, but of course it was not the prophesied new earth, the next cleansing will bring that, which you will likely agree with.

In my opinion that fire will not be literal, I believe there will be literal fires during the upcoming battle, but not the earth being consumed by fire. I believe that symbolizes complete purity. If the earth is destroyed by fire, that contradicts Ps 104:5, and Ecc 1:4 which reveal the earth is forever Taken. Jesus even compared that upcoming destruction to the flood, and like you said, it cleansed the earth, not destroyed it.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,675
13,051
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
satan says you will not die, God stated you will. God defined death in His word the Bible, nothing lives on, you are not conscious of anything, just as before you were born. I am going to have to side with God on this one, and side with Paul on a Christians hope is in the resurrection.
Yes I also am siding with God.

* A man- Kind Of Body is Called:
Terrestrial, Earthly, created out of the Earth, its Life sustained By what is IN the Earth....
The BODY, is A Vessel.
The Vessel, (Body) has LIFE IN the Vessel.
Its Life IS Called BLOOD.
Its Life IS Required, Must, Will DIE.

When the BLOOD life ceases moving (flowing)...the entire Body, it’s flesh, tissue, organs, bones, will cease functioning...Know Nothing, feel nothing, be Called...a Dead Body, a corpse, a cadaver, etc.
It will immediately...begin decomposing, rotting, stinking, returning to dust of the Earth.
...Matters not if it is buried in the Earth...or not...it begins decomposing.

Living men....regularly opt to...temporarily preserve the body, bury the
(putrid stinking decomposing) body in a cave, a casket, box, coffin, a plot of earth, called a Grave....or burn the body, bury the ashes, or scatter the ashes...
Point being....these are ACTS of Living Men regarding the disposal of a Dead, decomposing, putrid smelling, stinking human Body.

Dead Body’s, that which other Living men Take no care of...TO bury in a Grave (Of Choice, Earth, vault, cremation, whatever....)
* Flies, insects, Varmints, birds, animals...will be attracted to the Rotting Dead Body and take their turns Feasting and Eating the decaying corpse.

** And to note...A Dead Body, That Which a Living man Has buried IN a Grave, vault, cave etc. extends the decomposing process....and even days, months, years later that DEAD BODY, can be UN-buried, and still Seen...in portions of bone, tissue fragments not yet having decomposed...not yet having completely returned to dust of the earth.

What does that (Vessel) Body’s DEAD (BLOOD LIFE) Have to Do with ...

Gods LIFE?
Gods VESSELS?

Ponder...
Maybe you have not considered or Know...
What vessels are Gods, belong to God, and What Life is IN Gods Vessels...and NOT “Required” to Die, or “able” to Die.


Can discuss further if you elect.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no Scripture that specifically states that sir, that is my opinion based on Rev 12:7-9, 12.
Satan and his angels were banished from the dwelling place of God, which Paul calls the third heaven. This war in heaven and banishment of Satan occurred when Christ was born, and all the heavens rejoiced. Isaiah calls God's habitation high and holy, where those of a humble, contrite spirit are revived. The spirit of all humanity returns to God after the body dies, but the spirit of those who die in Christ (faith), having a humble and contrite heart/mind (spirit) survives, and as are the angels become spirit (living) soul. Waiting for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete and the seventh angel to sound that time for the heavens and earth that now are shall be no longer. Then our eternal spirit, returning with God will be re-united with our new immortal and incorruptible body of flesh, fitted for everlasting life on the new earth once again as complete living soul.

2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Isaiah 57:15 (KJV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In this discussion we seek to understand the renewal of both the heavens and the earth after this current heavens and earth have passed away. Satan is not bound to cleanse this earth. He is bound that he may no longer deceive the Gentile nations of the earth. Prior to his binding he had power to hold all who had never heard of the Savior and believed in bondage to fear of death. Without knowing and believing that the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord was sent from God to be the Saviour of all who believe, man remains fearful of death. This bondage to fear of death was broken when Christ gave His life for sin, and resurrected from death. Because since Satan is now bound he lost the power to hold people in fear of death. This is how Satan has been bound.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Christ has come in His spiritual Kingdom and commissioned His Church to take His message (Gospel) unto all the nations of the world. No longer will the Good News of the Messiah be limited to only one nation. Whosoever believes by grace through faith and the power of His Spirit, shall never again be afraid of death. Because he who believes shall NEVER die. The resurrection men/women of faith partake of in life is the "first resurrection". This resurrection is spiritual, and through the resurrection of Christ, because Christ is THE resurrection and THE life. When we have been born again through His Spirit in us, we have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven and have eternal spiritual life. Believers will not be perfected completely until the seventh trump sounds and our body becomes immortal and incorruptible; in this age we possess eternal life spiritually when our spirit is indwelt with the Spirit of life sent to every believer from Christ.

Time in this age is likened or symbolized a thousand years. When this time has ended there will not be another one thousand more years of time on this earth. All things will be made new again, the current heavens and earth renewed not recreated, by the cleansing fire of God's holy wrath when Christ returns the second time. Nothing alive on this earth will survive, and time shall be no longer.

I know several modern translations make it appear the living martyred souls come back to life again. The NWT listed below is one of the modern translations, like most if not all modern versions that appear to translate this passage to support a certain doctrine (millennialism). We can understand from the King James with Stong's Link, and the Textus Receptus the verse says that John sees living souls in heaven of saints who had been martyred in life for their faith. It's very important to rightly understand this verse, because it proves what Christ has promised whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die. John is instructed to write "souls of them that were beheaded"..."they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years." As living (spirit) soul they need not be made alive again, because their spirit NEVER died.

Revelation 20:4 (KJVSL) And καί I saw εἴδω thrones θρόνος, and καί they sat καθίζω upon ἐπί them αὐτός, and καί judgment κρίμα was given δίδωμι unto them αὐτός: and καί I saw the souls ψυχή of them that were beheaded πελεκίζω for διά the witness μαρτυρία of Jesus Ἰησοῦς, and καί for διά the word λόγος of God θεός, and καί which ὅστις had προσκυνέω not οὐ worshipped προσκυνέω the beast θηρίον, neither οὔτε his αὐτός image εἰκών, καί neither οὐ had received λαμβάνω his mark χάραγμα upon ἐπί their αὐτός foreheads μέτωπον, or καί in ἐπί their αὐτός hands χείρ; and καί they lived ζάω and καί reigned βασιλεύω with μετά Christ Χριστός a thousand χίλιοι years ἔτος.

Revelation 20:4 (TR) και ειδον θρονους και εκαθισαν επ αυτους και κριμα εδοθη αυτοις και τας ψυχας των πεπελεκισμενων δια την μαρτυριαν ιησου και δια τον λογον του θεου και οιτινες ου προσεκυνησαν τω θηριω ουτε την εικονα αυτου και ουκ ελαβον το χαραγμα επι το μετωπον αυτων και επι την χειρα αυτων και εζησαν και εβασιλευσαν μετα χριστου χιλια ετη

Revelation 20:4 (YLT) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

Revelation 20:4 (WEB)
I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (GB) And I sawe seates: & they sate vpon them, & iudgement was giuen vnto them, & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnes of Iesus, and for the word of God, & which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or on their handes: and they liued, & reigned with Christ a thousand yeere.

Revelation 20:4 (DBY) And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Revelation 20:4 (Bish)
And I sawe thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was geuen vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and whiche had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their handes: and they lyued and raigned with Christe a thousand yeres.

Revelation 20:4 (ASV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,675
13,051
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes the earth's cleansing did happen once in the flood I agree, but of course it was not the prophesied new earth, the next cleansing will bring that, which you will likely agree with.

In my opinion that fire will not be literal, I believe there will be literal fires during the upcoming battle, but not the earth being consumed by fire. I believe that symbolizes complete purity. If the earth is destroyed by fire, that contradicts Ps 104:5, and Ecc 1:4 which reveal the earth is forever Taken. Jesus even compared that upcoming destruction to the flood, and like you said, it cleansed the earth, not destroyed it.

I Do call the First....an Earth cleansing...being effected by Water, via Gods Power.

I Do call the Next/ Second/ Last...an Earth purification...being effected by Fire, via Gods Power.

And each....Water (Past) and (Future Fire)....designed...to DESTROY kill the BODY (Vessels) Body (blood life) occupying The Face of the Earth.

I do believe the Water (Past Flood) was Literal.

I do believe the Fire (Future) as well, will be Literal.

Rev 20:
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no Scripture that specifically states that sir, that is my opinion based on Rev 12:7-9, 12.

You may be correct I may be understanding it wrongly, but since satan and the demons no longer have access, the heavens are definitely cleansed. When satan and those who follow him are removed permanently, then the earth will be cleansed fully. satan no longer has access to the heavens, so they logically are cleansed, and one might reason when he is removed from the earth the earth is cleansed as well, but sinful humans will be undergoing resurrection and will not be resurrected perfect, rather will be educated by God during those thousand yrs, and it is at the end of those thousand years they come to life sir Rev 20:5, even then satan and his horde is not destroyed, so perhaps the new heaven and earth will become fulfilled at their demise. But as near as I can figure, satan will never be allowed access to heaven again at this time, so logically the new heavens exist now.
As shown most if not all modern versions of Holy Scripture have translated this verse with what appears to be a bias toward millennialism. In doing this they make it appear the first resurrection is physical, not spiritual, and that the martyred souls shall live and reign with Christ on this earth for one thousand years after the Lord has come the second time. In this they ignore the tenses. Many millennialists also believe there will two physical resurrections and deny Jo 5:28-29 where it is clearly written there will be one physical resurrection of humanity at the same hour coming, of both those who have done good and those who have done evil, with the good resurrected to life and the evil to damnation.

NWT Rev 4-5 And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christi for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the deadj did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

[Rev 20:4 NIV] 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[Rev 20:4 ESV] 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

[Rev 20:4 CSB] 4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

[Rev 20:4 RSV] 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,675
13,051
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@rwb

There have been resurrections of Dead Body’s...recorded in Scripture, and outside of Scripture.

A dead body, is Blood (life ceases to flow) and is Void of a living soul (which departs the dead body).

Two off hand resurrections were Jesus of-course after His Body was Dead and buried 3 days, then resurrected and Lazarus whose Body was Dead and buried 4 days, then resurrected.

Point being resurrections, (neither called First or Last resurrections), Have and Continue to occur.

Unlike you,
I believe there is a resurrection of those Converted IN Christ Before the Tribulation. ( neither called the First or Last Resurrection )

And a resurrection Nearing the End of the Tribulation Of Those Believers Of Christ. (Called the First Resurrection.)
As well a (called Last Resurrection) After Jesus’ Express Revealed Limited 1,000 yr reign.


And know the specific differences Of Who, What, When, Why, Where and by Whom, Which Scripturally verifies my Belief.

Glory to God,
Taken