Is Lying a Violation of the Ten Commandments? - No. - Well, maybe... ???

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St. SteVen

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Or is the key point the "Against thy neighbor", i.e. somebody gets hurt?
That definitely adds another dimension to this train wreck of a commandment.

All our lives we have been told that the 9th commandment is Thou shalt not lie.
Certainly NOT what the Bible says. In context, or if we read the ACTUAL text
it is about perjury against a neighbor. Lying seem a BROAD generalization
of that VERY specific commandment.

Definitely an open can of worms on a slippery slope.
Nice. - LOL

Interesting how much posters are struggling to get their head around this.
Can't seem to shake the idea that it is about lying. (when it isn't)

("Thou shalt not mix thy metaphors!")
LOL
Yes, we really need an 11th commandment.

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MatthewG

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Lying in many circumstances may well be the compassionate and merciful thing to do. This to me seems far more a Jesus-like standard than agnozing over how my conduct fits into the 9th Commandment. "Bearing false witness against thy neighbor" is a very specific circumstance that may never arise in most peoples' lives.
And God still deals with the person.
 

St. SteVen

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Lying in many circumstances may well be the compassionate and merciful thing to do. This to me seems far more a Jesus-like standard than agnozing over how my conduct fits into the 9th Commandment. "Bearing false witness against thy neighbor" is a very specific circumstance that may never arise in most peoples' lives.
Thank you.
It took 20 posts for someone to finally get it. - LOL

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MatthewG

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Love you ignoring me, it’s cool though.
 

St. SteVen

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Good post, thanks. But...
However, Jesus' interpretation of the Law is based on the idea that we should be concerned with the spirit in which the Laws were given - i.e. the intent behind the command. As long as the intent is upheld, the commandment is upheld.
How did you arrive at this conclusion?

I think the "spirit of the law" idea is unbiblical.

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Wick Stick

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Good post, thanks. But...

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

I think the "spirit of the law" idea is unbiblical.
The foundation is in Jesus' teachings in the gospels. Examples...

In Luke 6 the disciples are accused of breaking Sabbath. Jesus essentially tells the Pharisees that the point of the commandment is rest, not religious observance, and that fixing themselves a snack is lawful as part of resting. As long as the intent of the commandment is upheld, the commandment is upheld... and the letter of the law be damned.

In Mark 7, Jesus condemns the practice of donating money/property to the temple as a way of legal avoidance of the commandment to support their aged parents. Again, the intent of the commandment (supporting the aged in retirement) is more important than the letter of the law.

In the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7), Jesus goes through a laundry list of OT Commandments, saying "you've heard it said... but I say to you..." He contradicts the idea of "enforce these against each other" (which is to say, by bringing each other before the judge) and instead internalizes them as "enforce these upon yourself." I might summarize the whole thing as "stop trying to figure out what you can get away with, and instead aim to uphold the intent of the commandments."

None of that is an explicit statement of the principle, but when we examine Jesus' argument inductively, that's the logic we see behind them. Paul may state it more clearly...

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Hmmm... maybe not as explicitly stated as I remember. I sort of read between the lines, like... serve in newness of the spirit [of the Law], and not in the oldness of the letter [of the Law]. But Paul spends a good amount of time contrasting Spirit with Law in several letters, and this is what I understand him to mean.

-Jarrod
 
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Lambano

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The 9th Commandments reads:
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. - EXODUS 20:16 NIV

Giving false testimony is perjury specifically, not lying in general. ???
Can you really limit the scope of the commandment to a courtroom setting? Or by extension, does it cover, for example, internet gossip. "I witnessed my neighbor having sex on the chaise lounge in the back yard with his neighbor's wife." Enquiring minds want to know!
 
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lforrest

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Would you consider the Shema to be part of the commandments? I believe it serves as a sort of introduction or summary to them.

Consider the Shema that commands us to love the Lord our God with all our heart. Then consider if a lie is loving or not.
 
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Wick Stick

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Would you consider the Shema to be part of the commandments? I believe it serves as a sort of introduction or summary to them.

Consider the Shema that commands us to love the Lord our God with all our heart. Then consider if a lie is loving or not.
Depends on the lie, I guess.

Speaking for myself - I almost never lie, but I don't always answer the question that is asked. It's often better to re-frame someone's question before answering it. E.g.

"Do these pants make my butt look big?"

If you're answering 'yes' OR 'no,' you're probably in trouble.
 

ElieG12

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This info about what a LIE is may be useful:

LIE: The opposite of truth. Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person. A lie need not always be verbal. It can also be expressed in action, that is, a person may be living a lie. The Hebrew verb that conveys the idea of speaking that which is untrue is ka·zavʹ. (Pr 14:5) Another Hebrew verb sha·qarʹ means “deal or act falsely,” and the noun form is rendered “lie; deception; falsehood.” (Le 19:11; Ps 44:17; Le 19:12; Ps 33:17; Isa 57:4) Hebrew shawʼ, at times rendered “untruth; falsehood,” basically refers to something worthless, vain, valueless. (Ps 12:2; De 5:20; Ps 60:11; 89:47; Zec 10:2) The Hebrew verb ka·chashʹ (deceive) evidently has the basic meaning “prove disappointing.” (Le 19:11; Ho 9:2) The Greek term pseuʹdos and related words have to do with lying and falsehood. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002738

So, lying is more than speaking false things, and there are abundant statements in the Bible about how God views this practice.
 
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Traveler

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Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Well I guess that answers that question.
 
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ElieG12

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Jesus implied that lying was a practice invented by the Devil. He said to the Pharisees:

John 8:44
You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
 
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MatthewG

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Can you really limit the scope of the commandment to a courtroom setting? Or by extension, does it cover, for example, internet gossip. "I witnessed my neighbor having sex on the chaise lounge in the back yard with his neighbor's wife." Enquiring minds want to know!
A man I met last night started gossiping about another worker I know.

It fleshly wise draining. Quench of thy spirit too sometimes. It’s allure of information I didn’t need to know but he knew ands told me. While some may be true some may be false it still frames up your mind by the flesh instead of the spirit.

In general never trust anyone… keep what you need to yourself and don’t expose yourself to just anyone cause as they say.

This information could be used in a court of law.

Gossiping is missing the mark. People can be prone to do or online to, private messaging to talk about another individual.

In general it definitely will get the focus of one self and there own impending doom. And sometimes the gossip will go around and it will be right back on you.
 
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MatthewG

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Jesus implied that lying was a practice invented by the Devil. He said to the Pharisees:

John 8:44
You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
What about the prostitute, who held men in her home who hid from those looking for them? She lied in order to get the testing people away from her and them. It’s in the Bible, was this wrong to do? She lied, while having faith in God.
 

Lambano

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Jesus tended to broaden the application of the commandments, the most famous being the "lust = adultery in the heart". (Did anybody pick up on calling somebody a fool being equivalent to Murder-1 in the immediately preceding verses of that famous sermon? I think I'm in trouble on that one.) That's why I'm just sayin' that Jesus might not limit the "false witness" commandment to a courtroom setting.
 
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ElieG12

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What about the prostitute, who held men in her home who hid from those looking for them? She lied in order to get the testing people away from her and them. It’s in the Bible, was this wrong to do? She lied, while having faith in God.
She was considered righteous for her faith, as she trusted in the power of Jehovah and protected his servants while she was still a cananean woman.

When she later joined Israel she had to learn the principles of the law and apply them in her life. She even became an earthly ancestor of Jesus Christ.
 
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MatthewG

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She was considered righteous for her faith, as she trusted in the power of Jehovah and protected his servants while she was still a cananean woman.

When she later joined Israel she had to learn the principles of the law and apply them in her life. She even became an earthly ancestor of Jesus Christ.

She still lied?
 

MatthewG

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Jesus tended to broaden the application of the commandments, the most famous being the "lust = adultery in the heart". (Did anybody pick up on calling somebody a fool being equivalent to Murder-1 in the immediately preceding verses of that famous sermon? I think I'm in trouble on that one.) That's why I'm just sayin' that Jesus might not limit the "false witness" commandment to a courtroom setting.
Jesus called said if you call people fools your endanger of hell fire, and then he calls them fools. I’m probably perplexed by your comment as I don’t understand it.