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Is Muhammad predicted in the Bible: A Christian reply

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Elisha Kai, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Elisha Kai

    Elisha Kai New Member

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    I am fully aware that there are other threads referring to this matter, however, I begin this thread to provide further clarification into this matter, mainly by providing a summarized set of answers in one post.Its a common claim asserted by Muslims that the Bible predicts the appearance of Muhammad!The Koran itself makes this statement, and Muslims have strongly attempted to prove this point by referring to particular passages in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Muslims usually wonder why Christians reject Muhammad as a prophet, and the answer is obvious: 1) the Jewish and Christian Scripture refer nowhere to Muhammad 2) Muhammad does not fulfil the standard of a prophet as set out in the Bible. The Koran says:
    Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures in the Taurat and he Gospel (Sura 7: 157)

    And remember Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: ?O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (Sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving a glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad? but when he came to them with clear signs, they said ?This is evident sorcery (Sura 61: 6)
    Thus the Koran states that Muhammad is predicted and found within the Torah and the Gospel as it was read and understood by the Christians and the Jews in the era of Muhammad.Since the Qur'an refutes the modern Muslim idea and speculation that the Bible and particularly the Gospel has been corrupted, we must assume that the prediction of Muhammad should be found in the present Gospel account (the Four Gospels); may I encourage every Muslim to take a good look at the passages below and submit to their own holy book by accepting the fact that the Bible has never been changed:
    Say, O people of the book! You are not founded on anything until you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord? (Sura 5:68-71)The Messenger believeth In what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, HIS BOOKS, and His messenger. ?WE MAKE NOT DISTINCTION (they say) between one and another of his messengers.? And they say: ?We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgivness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys? (Sura 2:285)Be courteous when you argue with People of the Book except with those among them who do evil. Say: ? We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one?. (29:46)O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his Messenger, and the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO HIS MESSENGER, AND the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO THOSE BEFORE (HIM). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His BOOKS, His messengers, and the day of judgement, hath gone fare astray (Sura 4:136)
    Then the Challenge remains where is Muhammad mentioned in these Scriptures? Because if he is absent the Qur'an appears to debunke itself, and yet another Islamic fallacy has be exposed.I. Is Muhammad predicted in the Torah???Muslims will usually claim that God's blessing upon Ishmael was the prediction of Muhammad; however, taking a closer look, we find that there is virtually no prophetic blessing ascribed to Ishmael (Gen. 16:7-15; 17:17-21; 21: 13, 18; 25:12-18). Even the Qur?an itself confirms that the line of prophet-hood ran through the nation of Israel and its prophets (2:47; 29:47; 45:16-17). The Muslim scholar Jamal Badawi seeks however, to argue his case on the issue by stating that a position of the kind always went to the firstborn first, which in this case is Ishmael, however: 1) this decision was taken before the law was inaugurated, 2) secondly God is above the law and 3) thirdly the context makes the whole setting understandable.The Bible recognises the same to occur in terms of both David and Solomon (1 Samuel 16:6-13, 1 Chronicles 29:23-25), and this is indeed confirmed even by the Koran:
    We gave knowledge to David and Solomoon and they both said: ?Praise be to Allah, Who has favored us above may of His servants who believe! And Solomon was David?s heir. He said: O ye people we have taught the speech of birds and we have been given of every thing: this is indeed grace manifest (from Allah)? (Sura 27: 15-16)
    The classic point referred to by Muslims is Deuteronomy 18:18 which says:
    I will raise up for them a prophet like you among their own brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I commanded you.
    The attempt of the Muslim is to state that compared to Moses, no prophet presented himself in the same close similitude as Muhammad. To prove their point Muslim scholars have listed a range of parallel elements, which mark the life and accomplishments of both individuals. E.g. Ahmed Deedat in his booklet What the Bible says about Muhammed comes up with these points (and I will respond to them point by point):1) Moses and Muhammad were prophets, while Jesus according to the Gospels was the Son of God!- however the Gospels do refer to Jesus as a prophet too (Mark 6:4)2) Moses and Muhammad were both married, Jesus was not- if that is important we also need to consider the number of wives Muhammad had in comparison to Moses, which proves to be highly unequal3) Moses and Muhammad had both a father and mother, but Jesus had no father- to use this argument a Muslim is simply referring to Jesus on a much higher level than Muhammad, and secondly if this is important why should we stop here, why not also consider the comparison between the parents of Moses and Muhammad?4) Both Moses and Muhammad, were accepted by their people while Jesus was rejected- actually Jesus was accepted by his followers, and secondly his mission is not over yet. The time is coming when he will receive global acceptation. Secondly, was Muhammad really accepted by all, or did he simply force his rule? 5) Moses and Muhammad were both rulers, Jesus never ruled a people or anyone- Jesus stated that he is ruling already now over heaven and earth, however again, his mission is not completed yet, he will return to rule globally6) Moses and Muhammad gave laws to the people Jesus did not- wrong again, read the sermon on the mountain or Jesus words prior to his ascension (Matt.28:20)7) Moses and Muhammad died a natural death, while Jesus? according to the Gospel died as a sacrifice- 1) Moses was killed by God himself, 2) Jesus died as a sacrifice and 3) Muhammad was possibly poisoned by a Jewish women; which of these three died a natural death? Moses and Muhammad are both buried but Jesus according to the Gospel was taken to heaven- Jesus was buried for a few days, as for Moses there is no grave, we are left ignorant. This kind of approach is obviously formulated by an individual whose lack of Biblical knowledge simply leads him to pull verses out of context, combine them with other verses and add a slight of speculation. For example what has marriage got to do with the similitude of prophet-hood? If this kind of approach lays the criteria, then the Muslim also needs to consider the elements which speak against Muhammad?s prophet-hood:Similar argumentation proving Muhammad to be unlike Moses1) Both Moses and Jesus were Israelites descending from the prophet line of Isaac of Jacob; Muhammad was an Arab2) Both Moses and Jesus were in Egypt; Muhammad was not3) Both Moses and Jesus were saved as babies; Muhammad was not4) Moses (Ex.33: 13-14) and Jesus (Matt.11) knew God personally, Muhammad did not!5) Moses and Jesus could read, Muhammad could according to the Muslims not6) Both Moses and Jesus did miracles, but according to the Qur?an Muhammad performed none (Sura 24: 13) (29: 50).7) Jesus and Moses never advocated foreign gods, however Muhammad at one point encouraged the worship of the three daughters of Allah.The passage in Deut.18: 18 cannot refer to Muhammad since the whole context deals with Israel and individual positions within society, such as prophets, who were to originate from the nation of Israel, that is: from among their own brothers, just like the kings (17:14-15) and priests (18:2). The Actual context of Deut.18: 15-20The argument falls to the ground merely by considering the actual context of Deut.18, and this is where modern Islamic scholarship gets debunked.
    The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own brethren?him you shall heed (15). Just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ?Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die? (16). And the Lord said to me, ?They have rightly said all that they have spoken? (17). I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth?(18).
    In other words the promise of a prophet like Moses was an answer to Israel?s prayer. One who will succeed Moses and stand between the Israel as a nation and God; in this context it had no global or international implication; the matter concerns the nation of Israel only.
    And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him (19). But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death (20).
    It becomes obvious from verses 19-20 that the prophet has a plural significance, in other words, the 'prophet' is a prediction of several prophets rather than a particular one. Secondly, since the passage refers to the context of Israel and the function of prophets there within. In other words, the prophet like Moses begins with Joshua. Thus the most accurate interpretation reveals that the ?prophet? refers to the line of prophets, from Moses up to Jesus Christ. The true sign of a prophet was: 1. Always speaking the Word of God, not false prophecy 2. Never to promote the worship of any other god It is vital here, that Muhammad did at one time through prophetical utterance permit the worship of idols. Later the verses (known as the satanic verses) were abrogated from the Quran by the angel Gabriel (Sura 17:73 ? 75, Sura 22:52-53, Sura 52: 19-26 Bukhari 6: 385; Tabari vol 6: 107). This one of the main reasons, why Christians refuse to accept Muhammad as a prophet from God and certainly as the last prophet. Furthermore verses 21-22, speak of the actual sign which proves a prophet, that is the fulfilment of his predictions, say a prophet really speaks for God and Muhammad did fail in this area as well; e.g. Sunan Abu Dawud, book 37: Number 4283 (Did the Dajjal appear in the seventh year of the battle over Constantinople?). II. Is Muhammad predicted elsewhere in the Old Testament? Since the word mahamaddim is used in Song of songs 5:16 Muslims quickly assert that Muhammad is being predicted. However mahamaddim is a Hebrew word, which simply refers to a ?loved one? (literary it means delights) in a romantic setting; the same noun is applied in several Old Testament passages such as Hosea 9:6,16; 1 Kings 20:6; Lamentations 1:10,11; 2:4; Isaiah 64:10; 2 Chronicles 36:19; Ezekiel 24:16,21,25. Secondly the passage does not describe Muhammad but possibly king Solomon or even a shepherd boy. Often Deut.33: 2 and Habakkuk 3: 3 are used to claim that Paran refers to Mecca, however Paran is located in the Sinai Peninsula near Egypt. Secondly, the context of Deut.33 speaks of an event in the history of Israel, not Saudi Arabia in the era of Muhammad. Some Muslims refer to the servant in Isaiah 42:1 to prove Muhammad, however the context clearly refers to a Jewish related individual, who is a peacemaker and fits the full context of the anointed Messiah. The Muslim scholar Badawi postulates that Isaiah 21:13-17 is a reference to the battle of Badr, however the context speaks about the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions of Arabia. Psalm 84:6 is often used to prove the pilgrimage to Mecca, however the name used, Baca, is located in northern Israel, as near as five miles from Jerusalem. Isaiah 29: 11-12 is supposed to refer to the giving of the Quran to someone who is unable to read (Muhammad), however according to the context, it is the rebellious people of Israel (not God) provide the book. Thus, say Muhammad is the focus, then not Allah but the rebellious people of Israel provide Muhammad with the Koran (talk about corruption), and then again, how about the other individual who is literate? Who is he? Also we need to consider that the text is plural, and no particular individual seems to be in mind, and finally the book is sealed and can therefore not be read; is the Muslim thus willing to admit that he cant read his own holy book? Isaiah 42-45 speak about a chosen anointed one, yet again we need to look at the context as; in Isaiah 42 the chosen anointed servant clearly is a Messianic prediction, in Isaiah 42-44, 48-49 it is Israel, in Isaiah 41 and 45 it is the Persian king Cyrus. III. Is Muhammad predicted in the Gospels? The classical example from the Gospels is the ?Counsellor? mentioned in Jesus discourse to the disciples (John 14-15). 1) The word used by Jesus in John 14: 16 and 16:7 is parakletos (counsellor), however Muslims assert that the word should be the Greek periklytos which means praised one, a common title used for Muhammad. However this kind of argument simply builds upon speculation, since the word clearly is parakletos not periklytos as it is attested by every ancient document. 2) Secondly if the word indeed proved to be periklytos, so what? Why should it refer to Muhammad and not to someone else? 3) Thirdly, no ancient manuscripts contain the word periklytos, but parakletos 4) Fourthly the Muslim fails to consider the context, which would reveal that in case Muhammad was the parakletos or the periklytos: - he was sent to Jesus disciples after Jesus? ascension (14:15) - he will be sent on behalf of the will of Jesus (14:16) - he would remain with them forever (14:16) - he would only be seen by Jesus followers, first of all the disciples (14:17) - he will live with and in the disciples (14:17) - he will be directly united with Christ (14:18-19) In other words if this particular passage refers to Muhammad, then indeed Muhammad is God, which in the religion of Islam would be committing shirk, the unforgivable sin of comparing anyone or anything with God. a)To Summarize Muhammad is not found in the Bibleb)If Muhammad is predicted in the Bible e.g. as the Holy Spirit, then Muhammad is indeed God How are we to make sense out of the Qur'anic claim of the Biblical prediction of Muhammad and the attempts of Muslims discover the liability of this claim? Could such an error be the product of Divine revelation? I Dont THINK SO!
     
  2. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim("Elisha Kai")
    I am fully aware that there are other threads referring to this matter, however, I begin this thread to provide further clarification into this matter, mainly by providing a summarized set of answers in one post.Its a common claim asserted by Muslims that the Bible predicts the appearance of Muhammad!The Koran itself makes this statement, and Muslims have strongly attempted to prove this point by referring to particular passages in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.Muslims usually wonder why Christians reject Muhammad as a prophet, and the answer is obvious:1) the Jewish and Christian Scripture refer nowhere to Muhammad2) Muhammad does not fulfill the standard of a prophet as set out in the Bible.
    Hmmm.... your 2 points answer it seems like too bias i suppose [​IMG]. If what you were saying was true, how come so much people convert and submit to Islam event not more then enough some of them were Revert, Pastor, Rabbi, and Scientist ? Event more I suppose and now has more then 1 billion people if i'm not mistake reading.And again, if you think those Rabi, Revert, Pastor was not understand Bible, I supposed they were not be called as their title right ? So again it's depend on how you are seeing the prophecy of prophet Muhammad s.a.w.Now regarding on your 2 points that you are mention, it has the same thing that Jews(Judaism) has said regarding on your faith. So what is the big deal of it ? None, only the honest and clear mind and clean heart can tell what is the truth.Then, how is your answer to Jews ? Then, it's the same thing with us regarding on you.We only just foretold what you should to know and understand the same thing as you did to Judaism. The thing that you want to accepted or not that was become your own right. Only God will take an account on you for your denied, correct [​IMG] ?To be continued ...Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  3. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim("Elisha Kai")
    The Koran says:
    Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures in the Taurat and he Gospel (Sura 7: 157)And remember Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: ?O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (Sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving a glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad? but when he came to them with clear signs, they said ?This is evident sorcery (Sura 61: 6)
    Thus the Koran states that Muhammad is predicted and found within the Torah and the Gospel as it was read and understood by the Christians and the Jews in the era of Muhammad.Since the Qur'an refutes the modern Muslim idea and speculation that the Bible and particularly the Gospel has been corrupted, we must assume that the prediction of Muhammad should be found in the present Gospel account (the Four Gospels); may I encourage every Muslim to take a good look at the passages below and submit to their own holy book by accepting the fact that the Bible has never been changed:
    Say, O people of the book! You are not founded on anything until you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord? (Sura 5:68-71)The Messenger believeth In what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, HIS BOOKS, and His messenger. ?WE MAKE NOT DISTINCTION (they say) between one and another of his messengers.? And they say: ?We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgivness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys? (Sura 2:285)Be courteous when you argue with People of the Book except with those among them who do evil. Say: ? We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one?. (29:46)
    Regardless of your yellow arguments, i've something in the Quran like this :Surah Al Maydah(5):Yusuf Ali 15: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,- Shakir 15: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah; Pickthal 15: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,M. Khan 15: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad SAW) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad SAW ) and a plain Book (this Quran).So you see, Allah s.w.t. has giving an explaination regarding on what the Ahlil Kitab did, on God Revealation, some of them you are hided and some of them just passing over. So it is not all the scriptured was being corrupted but some of them yes.From this verse, it was simple to say, if the name of prophet of Muhammad s.a.w was not exist, that meant that part was being hided, then if the prophet Muhammad s.a.w name were exist, that meant that part was the one that not been hide.So what is the problem ?If you thinking that we Muslim considered that the Bible was all of them were corrupted then you are in wrong thought. ("Elisha Kai")

    O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his Messenger, and the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO HIS MESSENGER, AND the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO THOSE BEFORE (HIM). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His BOOKS, His messengers, and the day of judgement, hath gone fare astray (Sura 4:136)
    Then the Challenge remains where is Muhammad mentioned in these Scriptures? Because if he is absent the Qur'an appears to debunke itself, and yet another Islamic fallacy has be exposed.Well no matter whether prophet Muhammad s.a.w. name was being mention or not that wasn't become a problem at all I supposed [​IMG].to be continued.Wallaahu a'lam.
     
  4. Elisha Kai

    Elisha Kai New Member

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    Elisha Kai wrote earlier in this thread:
    1) the Jewish and Christian Scripture refer nowhere to Muhammad2) Muhammad does not fulfill the standard of a prophet as set out in the Bible.
    Ricky replies to this:
    Hmmm.... your 2 points answer it seems like too bias i suppose . If what you were saying was true, how come so much people convert and submit to Islam event not more then enough some of them were Revert, Pastor, Rabbi, and Scientist ? Event more I suppose and now has more then 1 billion people if i'm not mistake reading.
    Elisha Kai replies: I don't connect your argument with being biased; I don't see how these two cohere and if they do, they will simply damage Islam even more. Firstly, because Muhammad is no where mentioned in the Bible, contrary the claim of the Qur'an. That is why, unless Muslims are able to discover a explicit reference to Muhammad in the Bible, Islam has been proven false.Secondly, that people embrase Islam in no way proves that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible. These people convert for all other reasons. Whether they adapt the claims of Muslims later is but inevitable. However, if that would prove anything, how do you explain that so many Muslims become Christians. Todays statistics tells us that 20 million Muslims have converted to the Christian faith, with the last 10 years or so. Many of these were Islamic scholars, leaders and preachers. I am sure living in Indonesia you may be aware that Muslims do convert to Christianity. According to the Islamic statistics, 5 million Muslims turn to the Christian faith a year, possibly in Africa alone. http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Muslims_Leaving_Islamhttp://4-maghreb.com/christ/index.php?opti...id=13&Itemid=36http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972Ricky wrote:
    And again, if you think those Rabi, Revert, Pastor was not understand Bible, I supposed they were not be called as their title right ? So again it's depend on how you are seeing the prophecy of prophet Muhammad s.a.w.
    Elisha Kai replies:You would be surprised how many pastors lack biblical understanding, and indeed rabbis. You also need to consider that some of these are not even Christians or believers in God! shocking yeah, the majority of so called Christians are nominal, they don't even believe in God, and many Christians churches do not follow God, their leaders are not even believers in God. That has been one negative factor of the secular-atheistic strategy to infiltrate the church in the West. Consider also that some leave religion not because of research but because of personal issues. About nine years ago, I almost left Christianity to become a Muslim or atheist for personal reasons. Fourthly, consider also that many Muslim leaders, teachers become Christians, they certainly know the Qur'an and the Islamic traditions. If these leave Islam, then based upon your criteria something is wrong with Islam. Perhaps many of these realised that Muhammad was not found in the Bible, which confirmed the falsehood of Islam.Ricky wrote:
    Now regarding on your 2 points that you are mention, it has the same thing that Jews(Judaism) has said regarding on your faith. So what is the big deal of it ? None, only the honest and clear mind and clean heart can tell what is the truth.Then, how is your answer to Jews ? Then, it's the same thing with us regarding on you.
    Elisha Kai replies:No that is not the same thing. Jesus divinity, death, and resurrection is found in the Old Testament. In fact the Old Testament and the New Testament do not contradict each other, the fit each other in history as well, while the Qur'an contradicts both the Old and New Testament. Ricky wrote:
    We only just foretold what you should to know and understand the same thing as you did to Judaism. The thing that you want to accepted or not that was become your own right. Only God will take an account on you for your denied, correct.
    Elisha Kai replies: We are accountable to God, true, however, to my credit I believe in a Religion that is consistent in terms of its revelations, while your religion (Islam) that supposedly is coherent with the previous religions contradicts them. This is why Islam fails, and you who are following a false religion that is not coherent will be held accountable. I have challenged you on another thread to prove to me that the Qur'an verifies that the Torah and Injeel in Muhammad's time had been corrupted. So far you have been unable to meet that challenge.
     
  5. Elisha Kai

    Elisha Kai New Member

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    Ricky wrote:
    Regardless of your yellow arguments, i've something in the Quran like this :
    Elisha Kai replies:But if your reply is simply 'regardless' and then you bring up a passage that contradicts the point I brought up, which was not my argument but what the Qur'an commands the Muslim to believe in, then you have admitted that the Qur'an contains contradiction. In one passage the Qur'an adresses the Christians and Jews to follow their book, while in another passage this book is considered corrupted.Or either Allah lacks knowledge, or he is confused or he has intended through the Qur'an to deceive a group of people, but in that case the Qur'an is a book of deception. This is your argumentation Ricky, not mine!However as we shall see, the passages that Ricky brought up do not verify Bible corruption. Ricky posted these this passage to prove that the Bible has been corrupted:
    Surah Al Maydah(5):Yusuf Ali 15: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-Shakir 15: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;
    So do these passage confirm Ricky's point that the Bible according to the Qur'an is corrupted? Not really!The passages merely claims that the Jews whom Muhammad meet, used to hide some passages, that means when they read them to the Muslims they used to pass them over. This is not the same as sitting down and corrupting the book. This was corrupting by not reading a passaged up, which is slightly different from written corruption. Furthermore, if the passage did indicate actual corruption, three problems emerge:The first one, as I have already pointed, if you are correct, then the Qur'an contradicts itselfSecondly, this corruption would only involve the Jews not the Christians, the Qur'an nowhere states that the Christians have corrupted the Injeel in which Muhammad is also foretold according to the Qur'an. Hence the fact that Muhammad is not found in the Injeel would still debunk the reliability of the Qur'an!!!Thirdly, the corruption would among the Jews would only occur locally not universally. Furthermore, if it was corrupted, why is Muhammad then supposedly found therein? Ricky wrote:
    Well no matter whether prophet Muhammad s.a.w. name was being mention or not that wasn't become a problem at all I supposed .
    Elisha Kai replies:But now again you are turning to a kind of 'regardless' now you say 'no matter', but this those matter, if Muhammad is not explicitly referred to in the Bible, how do we know he is referred to in the Bible at all? Let me answer this but giving you two challenges:For example the prophet like Moses, is certainly a Jew, he will also take over after Moses, hence this cannot be Muhammad! Why is this particular text not saying, that 2000 years later, an Arabic leader will arise, etc; while the previoius explanation is clarified in the text, namely that this prophet is a Jew and he will rise up right after Moses, nothing related to Muhammad is pointed out. Why is the text not clearly speaking about Muhammad?Similarily with the paraclete in John 14, the context clearly speaks not about a prophet, but the Spirit of God, not Muhammad. Why is John 14 not clearly pointing out that an Arabic prophet will appear? Could you please expound on these two points I have raised.
     
  6. toddsumrall.com

    toddsumrall.com New Member

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    Yes Muhammad was predicted in the Bible. He was called a false prophet.Free eBook AntiChrist Islam's Awaited Messiahhttp://ToddSumrall.com
     
  7. ami

    ami New Member

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    Elisha Kai,Thank you once again for giving me an insight on the issue of Mohamed. I thank God for showing me the way, the life and the truth, Jesus christ.God bless you Elisha.Ami
     
  8. zadzial

    zadzial New Member

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    Sensational post Elisha. Thank you so much for sharing with us. :blessyou:Good response Todd! [​IMG]
     
  9. Emran

    Emran New Member

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    MUHAMMAD IN THE BIBLESomebody was saying that Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Almighty God be upon Him) is not mentioned in the Bible. I know that Deuteronomy 18:18 can refer to Jesus Christ. When the Muslim Scholars began peeping into the Christian Bible they found a striking similarity between Prophet Muhammad and the Prophet prophesized in Deut. 18:18. But the Christian Scholars went hell bent to prove that the Prophet mentioned was not Prophet Muhammad but it was Jesus Christ. You see, the Christian Scholars, they don’t know what they are talking about. Sometimes they say that Jesus Christ is God, sometimes He is Son of God, sometimes He is a prophet. I don’t know what more attributes they give to Jesus Christ. They are ready to believe in Jesus as anything and everything. These people are entangled in the mess of their own words. The only thing they take refuge in is their beautiful, mesmerizing necklace of words which in actuality are meaningless. Their claims are all vacuous. Although prophet and God are no synonymous terms yet it won’t come to me as a surprise if they say that Jesus Christ was all of them. Let me not go into deep waters. Its quite a different topic.Being liberal towards the Christians, I accept that Deut. 18:18 refers to Jesus Christ. It won’t cause any harm to my faith because I believe that Jesus Christ was prophesized in the Torah. So I accept that. But Jesus Christ is not prophesized by NAME in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible. There’s no such word as “Jesus” in the Old Testament of the Bible. In all 39 books of the Old Testament, you will never find this word “Jesus”. However (I did not know for a long time) Prophet Muhammad is mentioned by NAME in the Holy Bible. Now you ask me WHERE? I’ll tell you WHERE. Go to “SONG OF SOLOMON” Chapter 5. This chapter is actually a small poem of Prophet Solomon wherein He is describing his beloved. He is talking to the Daughters of Jerusalem (Young women of Jerusalem) and says that His beloved is white and ruddy; HIS head is like fine Gold; HIS eyes are like that of a dove; HIS cheeks are a bed of spices; HIS hands are like gold rings; HIS belly is like ivory …… Prophet Solomon is talking about his beloved in a very exaggerated manner. And its quite a natural thing when you describe your beloved. The point to be noted is that his beloved is a MALE. HIS eyes, HIS hands, HIS belly. Meaning His friend. From verse 1 to 15 Solomon praises his beloved. Now move to verse 16 (Last verse). What does it say: Song:5:16: His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.End of Chapter. Happy? No “Muhammad” in the whole chapter. I am asking what was the language of the Jews? Old Hebrew. So open the Hebrew Bible of the Jews. What does it say?Song:5:16: "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."Shocked? Aren’t you? The word Muhammadim has been translated to altogether lovely. I don’t know which dictionary was referred to. Actually the word Muhammadim is not one word. It is Muhammad-im. If you ask any Hebrew speaking person. What is the translation of God into Hebrew he says “Ela”. But when He talks about the God He worships He says “Eloh-im”. This term “im” is a term of respect to God or to any respectable person like “Mizra-im”, “Lud-im”, “Anam-im”, “Lehab-im”, “Pathrus-im”, “Casluh-im”. All these names are the forefathers of the Palestinians (Chronicles-I, 1:11,12). So Muhammadim means Muhammad+Respect. So without playing these translational games, if we retain the original word Muhammad in its original place, we get the following:Song:5:8: I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love.Song:5:9: What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved more than another beloved, that thou dost so charge us?Song:5:10: My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. Song:5:11: His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven.Song:5:12: His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set.Song:5:13: His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh.Song:5:14: His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires.Song:5:15: His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.Song:5:16: His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is MUHAMMAD. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. END OF CHAPTER.
     
  10. Nyoka

    Nyoka New Member

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    Emran can you please tell me where you got the word 'Muhammadim' in Song of Solomon 5:16? I have just spent time looking at online dictionaries and don't find that word in that verse. Instead they say the same thing Strong's Concordance does. The word they all used used is: 4261 machmad makh-mawd' from 2530; delightful; hence, a delight, i.e. object of affection or desire:--beloved, desire, goodly, lovely, pleasant (thing). Even when I took it back to the root word it still wasn't the word 'Muhammadim'. The root word for 'machmad' is: 2530 chamad khaw-mad' a primitive root; to delight in:--beauty, greatly beloved, covet, delectable thing, (X great) delight, desire, goodly, lust, (be) pleasant (thing), precious (thing).This does not line up with what you say regarding this verse.
     
  11. Emran

    Emran New Member

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    (toddsumrall.com;32666)
    Yes Muhammad was predicted in the Bible. He was called a false prophet.Free eBook AntiChrist Islam's Awaited Messiahhttp://ToddSumrall.com
    PeaceMy son Paul said in your Bible:Beware of false prophets who will come to you in sheeps clothings but inwardly are ravening wolves.When asked about how to differentiate between false prophet and true prophet, He said that "The prophet who confesseth that Jesus is the Christ is of GOD.On the authority of Muhammad 1.7 Billion Muslims believe that Jesus is the Christ. According to your Bible Muhammad is the prophet of GOD because he declared to the Arabs that Jesus was the Christ.
     
  12. Elisha Kai

    Elisha Kai New Member

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    Emram wrote:
    Being liberal towards the Christians, I accept that Deut. 18:18 refers to Jesus Christ. It won’t cause any harm to my faith because I believe that Jesus Christ was prophesized in the Torah. So I accept that. But Jesus Christ is not prophesized by NAME in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible. There’s no such word as “Jesus” in the Old Testament of the Bible. In all 39 books of the Old Testament, you will never find this word “Jesus”. However (I did not know for a long time) Prophet Muhammad is mentioned by NAME in the Holy Bible. Now you ask me WHERE? I’ll tell you WHERE. Go to “SONG OF SOLOMON” Chapter 5. This chapter is actually a small poem of Prophet Solomon wherein He is describing his beloved. He is talking to the Daughters of Jerusalem (Young women of Jerusalem) and says that His beloved is white and ruddy; HIS head is like fine Gold; HIS eyes are like that of a dove; HIS cheeks are a bed of spices; HIS hands are like gold rings; HIS belly is like ivory …… Prophet Solomon is talking about his beloved in a very exaggerated manner. And its quite a natural thing when you describe your beloved. The point to be noted is that his beloved is a MALE. HIS eyes, HIS hands, HIS belly. Meaning His friend. From verse 1 to 15 Solomon praises his beloved. Now move to verse 16 (Last verse). What does it say: Song:5:16: His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.End of Chapter.Happy? No “Muhammad” in the whole chapter. I am asking what was the language of the Jews? Old Hebrew. So open the Hebrew Bible of the Jews. What does it say?
    Elisha Kai replies: So according to Islamic interpretation of the Bible Muhammad was married to or had an affair with King Solomon???
     
  13. Jerusalem Junkie

    Jerusalem Junkie New Member

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    Elisha great posts but explain why Islam is the largest religion in the world it has more converts to it than any other religion...not that I agree with its teachings but it obviously must have something people like.
     
  14. Elisha Kai

    Elisha Kai New Member

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    I don't think Islam has so many converts), it grows biologically (Christianity grows primarily by conversion). Of converts who turn to Islam they tend mainly to derive from black males or white women. At least that tends to be the case; hence conversion seems to attract a specific social group or situation. Black males tend to convert as they seek out a group that may unite in a stronger category to fight the white man. As to women, most of them seem to marry Muslims and convert later, either willingly because they are slowly attracted by Islam or because it will improve their marriage and family life. Also I am told that 80 % of all converts leave Islam again (having said that we also see new Christians leaving the Christian faith after a short while). Secondly there are millions of Muslims leaving Islam at the moment, some converting to other religions (estimate has it that there are currently 20 million Christians from Muslim background, some Islamic statistics puts the number to 5 million Muslims converting to the Christian faith by year in Africa alone, I am not sure whether that numer is accurate, but we certainly talk about a number that exceeds one million), not to forget those who become atheists, and even more devastating the high rise of secular muslims, who no longer attend mosque or practices Islam, as found globally (these will initially lead to a future generation that takes a further step away from Islam); this all concludes that Islam as a name may grow pr birth, but declines in its faith. I hope that answers some of the questions.
     
  15. Truth_Teller

    Truth_Teller New Member

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    (Elisha Kai;31326)
    - 1) Moses was killed by God himself, 2) Jesus died as a sacrifice and 3) Muhammad was possibly poisoned by a Jewish women; which of these three died a natural death?
    What have you made up this theory with? Who told you that Muhammad (may all the peace and blessings be upon him) was poisoned by a jewish woman? Your elders in childhood? Please enlighten me on this, brother:shepard:.(Elisha Kai;31326)
    7) Jesus and Moses never advocated foreign gods, however Muhammad at one point encouraged the worship of the three daughters of Allah.
    Any proof to back that statement? It´s quite a funny claim to me...... Someone teaches all his life that there is only One Power, Allah, on a day allows worship of three doughters of The very same Allah????? Please kindly enlighten me on this as well, brother.
     
  16. Truth_Teller

    Truth_Teller New Member

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    (Elisha Kai;31326)
    , - actually Jesus was accepted by his followers, and secondly his mission is not over yet. The time is coming when he will receive global acceptation. Secondly, was Muhammad really accepted by all, or did he simply force his rule? [/B]
    Muhammad (may all the peace and blessings be upon him) was accepted by all and he didn´t enforce anything. He gave freedom of belief to everyone. No one was enforced into Islam. If it´s still too difficult to understand for you then I would suggest you to read into the history rather than asking anyone who himself will have a definite biased feeling against him.
     
  17. adren@line

    [email protected] New Member

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    Islam doesnt have the most converts, that is simply a spin-off-myth of the well-known fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, which is due to birth rate and has nothing to do with religion.In-fact, many Muslims are converting out of Islam but they keep quite about it due to fear.
     
  18. adren@line

    [email protected] New Member

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    (Truth_Teller;48931)
    Muhammad (may all the peace and blessings be upon him) was accepted by all and he didn´t enforce anything. He gave freedom of belief to everyone. No one was enforced into Islam. If it´s still too difficult to understand for you then I would suggest you to read into the history rather than asking anyone who himself will have a definite biased feeling against him.
    You are wrong.Mohhamed did indeed force people to convert to Islam, here is proof:[​IMG]
    In the name of Allah, the most compassionate, the most merciful, From Mohammed, the messenger of Allah, to Oman’s kings, Abd & Jaifer sons of Al-Julanda, I invite you to Islam, I am the Messenger of Allah to all mankind to warn whosever lives, and that the word may be fulfilled against the disbelievers.If you submit to Islam and follow it, then you will be assigned the leader of your people, if you do not submit to Islam, then my horses will crush your Kingdom and destroy your followers, and my prophethood will spread over your kingdom.
    from http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_...ECTION=201.htmlThis letter is displayed in a museum in Oman.Further, after Mohhamed died, the Riddah wars occured. "Riddah" means apostate in Arabic, and refers to the large number of Muslims who converted out of Islam after Mohhamed died. The reason they converted out of Islam is because they were forced into it, as in Islam a Muslim can enslave a non-Muslim but not a fellow Muslim, and hence the subjugated converted to avoid enslavement.In-fact, many Islamic scholars credit Abu Bakr as the "savior of Islam" since many, if not most of the Arabs converted out of Islam and had to be re-conquered and re-forced back into accepting Allah by Abu Bakr and were also promised riches if they joined his army and its offshoots, which would eventually plunder all of the middle east, south asia, and make their way into Europe.
     
  19. Truth_Teller

    Truth_Teller New Member

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    ([email protected];49070)
    You are wrong.Mohhamed did indeed force people to convert to Islam, here is proof:[​IMG]from http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_...ECTION=201.htmlThis letter is displayed in a museum in Oman..
    A more accurate translation would be:
    "Peace be upon him who follows true guidance; thereafter I invite both of you to the Call of Islam. Embrace Islam. Allah has sent me as a Prophet to all His creatures in order that I may instil fear of Allah in the hearts of His disobedient creatures so that there may be left no excuse for those who deny Allah. If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if you refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship."
    And please pay attention to the first high-lighted portion of the message. Prophets are tasked with certain obligations that regular human beings are not. God has sent Prophets and Messengers as a sign for humanity to warn them as well as give them glad tidings of the Day of Accountability that will come. What this means is that judgement is granted to certain nations in this very world when a Messenger is sent, so that mankind has historical proofs that God will not leave men alone in this land to do whatever they please.([email protected];49070)
    Further, after Mohhamed died, the Riddah wars occured. "Riddah" means apostate in Arabic, and refers to the large number of Muslims who converted out of Islam after Mohhamed died. The reason they converted out of Islam is because they were forced into it, as in Islam a Muslim can enslave a non-Muslim but not a fellow Muslim, and hence the subjugated converted to avoid enslavement.
    Huh:shepard:???? How did you come up with that theory???? Who told you that Muslim can enslave a non-Muslim but not a fellow Muslim????? Please enlighten me on this.....By the way, apostate is called "Murtadd" in Arabic language.
     
  20. adren@line

    [email protected] New Member

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    Your "new" translations still proves my point: Mohhamed threatened the rulers of Oman to convert. If they didnt, then he would invade their country.That is the epitome of coerced conversion, ie "convert or ill invade/kill you".As far as slavery, yes Islam does permit the enslavement of non-Muslims. It does not permit the enslavement of Muslims. This is why many/most people converted to Islam after being invaded and conquered by a Muslim army.
     
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