Is my salvation based upon my knowledge of the Trinity?

[Steve Owen]

first thanks for the reply. and glad you ask, for many just be against something that they have never looked at in the bible.

Thank you for your detailed reply. I have some things to do and a couple of posts I need to make before replying, but I will try to do so at some point tomorrow.

 

[101G]

just so I understand, I do not want to misrepresent what you said, so in question..

Are you saying is Jesus (the lord God) and Jesus (and his spirit) sent Jesus (sent me)

This is only reasonable if the father son and spirit are three distinct entities, All of which are called God.

Remember, The bible has said no one has seen the father. Yet Jesus as the son of Man was seen numerous times in human form in even the OT, and as a human in the NT who was crucified. And he had to go away, so the father could send the spirit.

Remember the term "SENT" and "CAME" and how it is used and by who, listen, John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive".

I thought he was "SENT". see how it is used now?

PICJAG.

 

[Steve Owen]

A few more comparisons of Scripture with Scripture, this time to show that the Holy Spirit is indeed Yahweh and a Person of the Holy Trinity. The first text refers to the Spirit, the second to the LORD.

Genesis 6:3. 'And the LORD said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man.'
1 Peter 3:20. 'The longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah.'

Isaiah 63:10-14. 'They vexed his Holy Spirit....Where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him?.....that led them through the deep....The Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest.'
Numbers 14:11. 'the LORD said to Moses, How long will this people provoke Me?'
Deuteronomy 32:12. 'The LORD alone did lead them.'

Acts 28:25. 'Well spake the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the Prophet.'
Luke 1:68-70. 'The Lord God of Israel spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began.'

2 Peter 1:21. 'Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'
2 Timothy 3:16. 'All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.'

John 3:6. 'That which is born of the Spirit.'
John 5:4. 'That which is born of God.'

John 16:26. 'The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost.'
Isaiah 51:12. 'I, even I, am he that comforteth you.'

Acts 9:31. 'Walking.....in the comfort of the Holy Ghost.'
2 Corinthians 1:3-4. 'The God of all comfort that comforteth us.'

1 Corinthians 6:19. 'Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost.'
1 Corinthians 3:16. 'The Spirit of God dwelleth in you.'
2 Corinthians 6:16. 'Ye are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them.'

Acts 5:9. 'How is it that ye have agreed to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?'
Matthew 4:7. 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God.'

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Remember the term "SENT" and "CAME" and how it is used and by who, listen, John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive".

I thought he was "SENT". see how it is used now?

PICJAG.

I was in the US military

A few times, I was sent to different places. And I would say I was sent by the president of the united states, My commander in chief. (or my military or whoever) To do whatever I was sent to do.

I could also easily say, I have come in the name of my president and commander in chief. I have come to perform this mission which basically means, I come in his name.

so you can see how wording depending on how a person decides to use it, You can say it both ways, and both ways would be correct.

I hope this helps..

 

[APAK]

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Colossians 1:13-19

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:29

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire."
8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:6-8

61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Mark 14:61-62

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:1-3

Jesus was with the Father at the beginning of everything. Because he is eternal he is God.
The reason why Jesus had to be God, was to demonstrate God had not given man an impossible task of walking the way of righteousness, rather God himself with mans limitations would walk this walk, and show man He was friendly and approachable through Christ.

This is the core issue, God is someone who desires our fellowship and sharing, once purified and cleansed. No one else could have brought this message than Him, and we are His creation made in His image to have this very communion and fellowship.

FH: you have a mouthful here. Do you expect someone to respond to it as a debate? Where do you want someone to start. It would be great to break it down for a debate or deeper analysis.

I tell you what, here's a quickly prepared commentary on the Colossians verses you added and I will throw in verse 20 for completion. It is great when we can understand the entire thought process of the writer and not to short-change him by just parroting what he said and just state it =s this or that without any insight on your part. Because I do not know whether you understand it or not.

So here's Colossians 1:13-20 as a commentary (and you can see how your added verse 29 fits in to it very nicely - Christ is indeed the 'first' born of the new creation. He was indeed born and ascended as the first...):

First these verses were given to these believers for a specific reason and as a warning. Several were beginning to worship angels (Col 2:18-19) and Christ was being pushed back into the background and not considered the ‘head’ of the congregation or body of believers.

Verse 15 says that Jesus is clearly the image (Greek: ‘eikon’- used in the OT about two dozen times. It never means manifestation as some creative folks conjure up) of God and not God himself. The Father is God and therefore not the image of God as surely is his Son. The image is NEVER the same as the original. Thus Yahshua the Son, is never YHWH, the Father (see also John 14: 9-10).

It also says Jesus is the first human being to attain immortality over all those that will follow later (the first human born of all humans created). Yahshua is indeed the first of the creation – of the newborn, new adopted sons of YHWH. This was the intent of the passage.

Verse 16 is not about the creation act depicted in Genesis by God Almighty. Trinitarians make the error of suggesting that Paul is speaking of Genesis and creation of ‘all things.’ and this time by Jesus. This is a verse they claim says that Jesus is the creator of ‘all.’

‘All’ or the Greek transliteration ‘pas’ here, has an association and a definite limitation of scope and a limited context. It is related to Christ and the scope of what his Father gave him authority to create since his ascension. These things created in heaven and earth are such things as angels with their dedicated service to Christ’s body, and the nurture of new believers in the Spirit.

The structure of verse 16 is conveyed as a beginning statement and a restate of it at the end to ensure the reader understands the context or meaning is read in between them. (Beginning) In him all things were created… things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities….’all’ (THESE things as a list are stated) things were created through him (End). So between them spells out what this creation means, and it does not mean the creation of ‘all things’ as in Genesis. It is limited in scope and cannot mean ALL the universe etc. That is wishful thinking.

Paul has certain expressions he used quite frequently. One is the expression “in him” as in “in Christ” or “in Jesus.”

The context and setting for verse 16, begins before it as in most cases of scripture.

Verses 13 and 14 speaks to the Kingdom given to Jesus who was raises to immortality. In him we have redemption.

Verse 15 is about the new creation the Kingdom of God given to the head, the first risen. He is the head of all believers.

Verse 16 is about the Kingdom of God given to Jesus and all things created in and out of earth for his Kingdom. So, “in him” means for “for him” things were created…

And again, in verse 17, Paul uses the same “in him” expression to mean “for him” he was ‘before’ or the first in rank and in preeminent, and from all believers within his body.

Verse 18 provides more context that the subject is all about Jesus in heaven. It reiterates the fact that Jesus is and became first, the firstborn of any dead human being. And also, Jesus should have pre-eminent in all things, of the Kingdom. God, his Father does not need to have pre-eminence of anything or to anyone. He already has it. He gave authority to Jesus and he then would require him being first in all things or the pre-eminent one in, or of all things in this Kingdom and in the heavens and on the earth. And he does have this as he sits in power at the right hand of his Father, in heaven.

In Christ and for Christ, God brought all creation back to order. He uses Christ to fix creation on the earth, and in the heavens with the creation of believers of the Kingdom.

Verse 19 says that God was delighted to have Jesus run everything for him; all the ‘fullness’ or Spirit dwelt in him. Jesus has the power and the authority of the Father!

And so, in verse 20 to bring all creation on the earth or in the heavens, back to the Father by using his Son.


Blessings,

APAK

 

[FollowHim]

FH: you have a mouthful here. Do you expect someone to respond to it as a debate? Where do you want someone to start. It would be great to break it down for a debate or deeper analysis.

I tell you what, here's a quickly prepared commentary on the Colossians verses you added and I will throw in verse 20 for completion. It is great when we can understand the entire thought process of the writer and not to short-change him by just parroting what he said and just state it =s this or that without any insight on your part. Because I do not know whether you understand it or not.

So here's Colossians 1:13-20 as a commentary (and you can see how your added verse 29 fits in to it very nicely - Christ is indeed the 'first' born of the new creation. He was indeed born and ascended as the first...):

First these verses were given to these believers for a specific reason and as a warning. Several were beginning to worship angels (Col 2:18-19) and Christ was being pushed back into the background and not considered the ‘head’ of the congregation or body of believers.

Verse 15 says that Jesus is clearly the image (Greek: ‘eikon’- used in the OT about two dozen times. It never means manifestation as some creative folks conjure up) of God and not God himself. The Father is God and therefore not the image of God as surely is his Son. The image is NEVER the same as the original. Thus Yahshua the Son, is never YHWH, the Father (see also John 14: 9-10).

It also says Jesus is the first human being to attain immortality over all those that will follow later (the first human born of all humans created). Yahshua is indeed the first of the creation – of the newborn, new adopted sons of YHWH. This was the intent of the passage.

Verse 16 is not about the creation act depicted in Genesis by God Almighty. Trinitarians make the error of suggesting that Paul is speaking of Genesis and creation of ‘all things.’ and this time by Jesus. This is a verse they claim says that Jesus is the creator of ‘all.’

‘All’ or the Greek transliteration ‘pas’ here, has an association and a definite limitation of scope and a limited context. It is related to Christ and the scope of what his Father gave him authority to create since his ascension. These things created in heaven and earth are such things as angels with their dedicated service to Christ’s body, and the nurture of new believers in the Spirit.

The structure of verse 16 is conveyed as a beginning statement and a restate of it at the end to ensure the reader understands the context or meaning is read in between them. (Beginning) In him all things were created… things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities….’all’ (THESE things as a list are stated) things were created through him (End). So between them spells out what this creation means, and it does not mean the creation of ‘all things’ as in Genesis. It is limited in scope and cannot mean ALL the universe etc. That is wishful thinking.

Paul has certain expressions he used quite frequently. One is the expression “in him” as in “in Christ” or “in Jesus.”

The context and setting for verse 16, begins before it as in most cases of scripture.

Verses 13 and 14 speaks to the Kingdom given to Jesus who was raises to immortality. In him we have redemption.

Verse 15 is about the new creation the Kingdom of God given to the head, the first risen. He is the head of all believers.

Verse 16 is about the Kingdom of God given to Jesus and all things created in and out of earth for his Kingdom. So, “in him” means for “for him” things were created…

And again, in verse 17, Paul uses the same “in him” expression to mean “for him” he was ‘before’ or the first in rank and in preeminent, and from all believers within his body.

Verse 18 provides more context that the subject is all about Jesus in heaven. It reiterates the fact that Jesus is and became first, the firstborn of any dead human being. And also, Jesus should have pre-eminent in all things, of the Kingdom. God, his Father does not need to have pre-eminence of anything or to anyone. He already has it. He gave authority to Jesus and he then would require him being first in all things or the pre-eminent one in, or of all things in this Kingdom and in the heavens and on the earth. And he does have this as he sits in power at the right hand of his Father, in heaven.

In Christ and for Christ, God brought all creation back to order. He uses Christ to fix creation on the earth, and in the heavens with the creation of believers of the Kingdom.

Verse 19 says that God was delighted to have Jesus run everything for him; all the ‘fullness’ or Spirit dwelt in him. Jesus has the power and the authority of the Father!

And so, in verse 20 to bring all creation on the earth or in the heavens, back to the Father by using his Son.


Blessings,

APAK

Let me put things in a way you can understand where I am coming from.
We have to discover who Jesus is and how He is the cornerstone.

You could interpret Jesus as something else than He is. The question is why would you.
Jesus needs to be God, because the whole point of the cross was to express His love and nature, and His desire to reconcile us to Him.
There is an impossible problem we have, we do not trust anyone, let alone the Lord.

But Jesus came to show us He has built a way, reconciled our sin, and shown us a path to eternity.
But it is only possible if we believe God has come in the flesh.

 

[APAK]

Let me put things in a way you can understand where I am coming from.
We have to discover who Jesus is and how He is the cornerstone.

You could interpret Jesus as something else than He is. The question is why would you.
Jesus needs to be God, because the whole point of the cross was to express His love and nature, and His desire to reconcile us to Him.
There is an impossible problem we have, we do not trust anyone, let alone the Lord.

But Jesus came to show us He has built a way, reconciled our sin, and shown us a path to eternity.
But it is only possible if we believe God has come in the flesh.

I see you cannot use the word of God and just your own feelings, wishes and thoughts for knowing our Christ. You give yourself away when I read words you used like, "Jesus needs to be God..."

Thanks anyway, and peace always be with you that is also in Christ because of our common Father

Bless you,

APAK

 

[MattMooradian]

No. You are saved by the blood of Jesus, not by any particular belief. You can deny the trinity and still be saved. But, it is difficult to not believe that God is in heaven, the Son of God was on Earth, and God dwells within you as the Holy Spirit.

 

[APAK]

My sentiments exactly although I might not have used your words to say the Father and the Son are in the heavenlies where the Son was once on the earth, and the Father's Spirit is within us, those that are saved...Blessings..APAK

 

[Joseph77]

Once again, who does Jesus say is or is to be echad, one, with Jesus, the son, and one with the Father God, the same as Jesus and the Father are one ?

 

[tigger 2]

1. I gave a passage earlier. But no one has even responded to it
Is 48:
“Listen to Me, O Jacob And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The Lord loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

As you can see. Jesus is the one who is sent, He is also creator and sustainor. And he was sent by the Lord God (father) and his Spirit. two distinct entities of the godhead. who sent the third one.


2. Jesus himself stated. Before Abraham existed, He always was (the word I Am is ego eimi in the greek, which is exactly the same words used in the greek interpretation of the OT, also known as the Septuagint, Used by the lord when moses asked his name Gods response is "ego eimi" it is the reason that the jews fell back and threatened to stone him for blasphemy, as they understood, He was claiming to be God, and according to the law. Anyone who did this was to be stoned.

Is. 48:16 - Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD [Jehovah], and his spirit, hath sent me. - KJV.

Commenting on this scripture some trinitarians will say: "The speaker of Is. 48:16 is Jehovah as identified by context in the first part of the verse and as shown by his identification in verse 17 where he continues to speak. But notice that Jehovah, who is speaking, says: `The Lord GOD [Jehovah] ... hath sent me.' Therefore there must be at least two persons who are Jehovah!"

The answer to such "proof" is obvious: "speaker confusion." Isaiah, like most other Bible writers, often interspersed the conversation of one person with statements by others and often doesn't identify the new speakers. Very often they appear to be comments by Isaiah himself.

That this is very likely the case here is shown, not only by context, but by these Bible translations: The RSV and the NIV Bibles show by quotation marks and indenting that Isaiah himself made the final comment in Is. 48:16.

Quotation marks in NLT, ESV, TEV, Tanakh, Holman Christian Standard Bible, ICB, New Century Version, and THE MESSAGE also show the last part of Is.48:16 to be a new speaker (not Jehovah).

The NAB (1970 and 1991 versions) also indicates a new speaker there, and, in the St. Joseph edition of the NAB, a footnote for Is. 48:16 tells us that the final statement was made by Cyrus! And the very trinitarian Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version, World Bible Translation Center, 1992, comes right out and says at Is. 48:16,

" 'Come here and listen to me! ... from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.' "

The New English Bible (NEB), The Revised English Bible (REB), and the Bible translation by Dr. James Moffatt (Mo) consider the last statement of Is. 48:16 to be spurious and leave it out of their translations entirely.

Certainly these mostly trinitarian translations would have rendered this scripture (and punctuated it accordingly) to show a two-Jehovah meaning (or given such an alternate rendering in the footnotes) if their trinitarian translators had thought there was even the slightest justification for such an interpretation! (Also analyze Jer. 51:19 - Jacob is the former of all things - Jehovah of hosts is his name, according to this trinitarian-type "speaker confusion" reasoning!)

"The prophet himself [Isaiah], as a type of the great prophet, asserts his own commission to deliver this message: Now the Lord God (the same that spoke from the beginning and did not speak in secret) has by his Spirit sent me, v. 16." - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible, Isaiah Chapter 48 verse 16.

When trinitarian scholars and translators deny a trinity 'proof,' it is highly likely that said 'proof' is not a proof at all.

...............................

As for the statement that the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 uses ego eimi ('I am' in English) as God's name, here is what the Brenton Septuagint (Zondervan Publ.):

"And God spoke to Moses saying, I am (ego eimi) THE BEING (ho ohn - capitalization by translator Brenton)...."

If I said "I am Tigger2," surely no one would think my name is "I am"!

The Septuagint does not say that Moses was told God's name is "I Am."

 

[Joseph77]

Subject to testing. Not accepted unless proven truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is. 48:16 - Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD [Jehovah], and his spirit, hath sent me. - KJV.

Commenting on this scripture some trinitarians will say: "The speaker of Is. 48:16 is Jehovah as identified by context in the first part of the verse and as shown by his identification in verse 17 where he continues to speak. But notice that Jehovah, who is speaking, says: `The Lord GOD [Jehovah] ... hath sent me.' Therefore there must be at least two persons who are Jehovah!"

The answer to such "proof" is obvious: "speaker confusion." Isaiah, like most other Bible writers, often interspersed the conversation of one person with statements by others and often doesn't identify the new speakers. Very often they appear to be comments by Isaiah himself.

That this is very likely the case here is shown, not only by context, but by these Bible translations: The RSV and the NIV Bibles show by quotation marks and indenting that Isaiah himself made the final comment in Is. 48:16.

Quotation marks in NLT, ESV, TEV, Tanakh, Holman Christian Standard Bible, ICB, New Century Version, and THE MESSAGE also show the last part of Is.48:16 to be a new speaker (not Jehovah).

The NAB (1970 and 1991 versions) also indicates a new speaker there, and, in the St. Joseph edition of the NAB, a footnote for Is. 48:16 tells us that the final statement was made by Cyrus! And the very trinitarian Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version, World Bible Translation Center, 1992, comes right out and says at Is. 48:16,

" 'Come here and listen to me! ... from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.' "

The New English Bible (NEB), The Revised English Bible (REB), and the Bible translation by Dr. James Moffatt (Mo) consider the last statement of Is. 48:16 to be spurious and leave it out of their translations entirely.

Certainly these mostly trinitarian translations would have rendered this scripture (and punctuated it accordingly) to show a two-Jehovah meaning (or given such an alternate rendering in the footnotes) if their trinitarian translators had thought there was even the slightest justification for such an interpretation! (Also analyze Jer. 51:19 - Jacob is the former of all things - Jehovah of hosts is his name, according to this trinitarian-type "speaker confusion" reasoning!)

"The prophet himself [Isaiah], as a type of the great prophet, asserts his own commission to deliver this message: Now the Lord God (the same that spoke from the beginning and did not speak in secret) has by his Spirit sent me, v. 16." - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible, Isaiah Chapter 48 verse 16.

When trinitarian scholars and translators deny a trinity 'proof,' it is highly likely that said 'proof' is not a proof at all.

...............................

As for the statement that the Septuagint at Exodus 3:14 uses ego eimi ('I am' in English) as God's name, here is what the Brenton Septuagint (Zondervan Publ.):

"And God spoke to Moses saying, I am (ego eimi) THE BEING (ho ohn - capitalization by translator Brenton)...."

If I said "I am Tigger2," surely no one would think my name is "I am"!

The Septuagint does not say that Moses was told God's name is "I Am."

A problem with this like of thinking is the one who says come near unto me, he says I have told you from the beginning. The beginning is interpreted as what was told in the passage earlier

elohime translated Gods, is the plural form of the word God, like in Genesis one where it says God created the heavens and the earth, Jehovah (yhwh) was not used their elohime was.

jehova (the singular word used for God) could be used for any of the members of the godhead

as for moses

Ego eimi literally means I have always existed,

that is exactly what Jesus said when he declaired before abraham existed I have always existed, or I always was.

The fact jesus said he existed before abraham was born, proves Jesus was not a created being born of mary,

 

[FollowHim]

I see you cannot use the word of God and just your own feelings, wishes and thoughts for knowing our Christ. You give yourself away when I read words you used like, "Jesus needs to be God..."

Thanks anyway, and peace always be with you that is also in Christ because of our common Father

Bless you,

APAK

Here is the problem, we choose our perspectives. I know why I believe Jesus is God.

Jesus declares only the Father can reveal this to us. So I am not here to argue. If you want a complex layered view you can make it.

Jesus impressed me with His love.
If Jesus is not God, it all makes no sense.

 

[FollowHim]

Sin is our problem, the actions that bring death. Only forgiveness and healing can solve this, communion with God.

It is only God who could open that door of friendship, Jesus, God's eternal word in human form. Love only works when we see it and respond. He loved us so much to die for us. Unless we saw this and knew it, we would not give up our lives.

God bless ypu

 

[tigger 2]

Eternally Grateful wrote:
"elohime translated Gods, is the plural form of the word God, like in Genesis one where it says God created the heavens and the earth, Jehovah (yhwh) was not used their elohime was.

jehova (the singular word used for God) could be used for any of the members of the godhead

as for moses

Ego eimi literally means I have always existed,

that is exactly what Jesus said when he declaired before abraham existed I have always existed, or I always was.

The fact jesus said he existed before abraham was born, proves Jesus was not a created being born of mary,"

A little study of the Hebrew word elohim shows that it was sometimes used as a numerical plural in scripture, but by far, it was used in a numerically singular, but plural of majesty sense. Jehovah was called elohim hundreds of times in the OT. Look it up in a number of trustworthy sources.

'Jehovah' (YHWH) was used only for the Most High Almighty God (Psalm 83:18, KJV) who is the Father in heaven (Is. 64:8).

Ego eimi literally means "I am"!! Did the ex-blind man at John 9:9 really mean he had always existed??

Do you mean that Jesus could not have existed before Abraham and still have been born to Mary? Why not? If one of the angels who came to earth in human form said he existed before Moses, would we have to believe he was lying?

 

[101G]

I was in the US military

A few times, I was sent to different places. And I would say I was sent by the president of the united states, My commander in chief. (or my military or whoever) To do whatever I was sent to do.

I could also easily say, I have come in the name of my president and commander in chief. I have come to perform this mission which basically means, I come in his name.

so you can see how wording depending on how a person decides to use it, You can say it both ways, and both ways would be correct.

I hope this helps..

Thanks for the reply. and thanks for being a fellow serviceman, so was I. and glad that you see what I was saying and I agree with you 100% in your example. for come, in the Greek is,
G2064 ἔρχομαι erchomai (er'-cho-mai) v.
ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai (e-lev'-tho-mai) [middle voice]
ἔλθω eltho (el'-thō) [active voice]
to come or go.
{in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively}
[middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur)]
KJV: accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set

“SENT”, is Past tense for to take, or cause to go, from one place to another.

so I agree with your assessment. I must use that example, which is a good one.

I see a teaching skill there of you.

Keep up the Good work and May God bless you.

PICJAG.

my source for the definition above, Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternally Grateful wrote:
"elohime translated Gods, is the plural form of the word God, like in Genesis one where it says God created the heavens and the earth, Jehovah (yhwh) was not used their elohime was.

jehova (the singular word used for God) could be used for any of the members of the godhead

as for moses

Ego eimi literally means I have always existed,

that is exactly what Jesus said when he declaired before abraham existed I have always existed, or I always was.

The fact jesus said he existed before abraham was born, proves Jesus was not a created being born of mary,"

A little study of the Hebrew word elohim shows that it was sometimes used as a numerical plural in scripture, but by far, it was used in a numerically singular, but plural of majesty sense. Jehovah was called elohim hundreds of times in the OT. Look it up in a number of trustworthy sources.

'Jehovah' (YHWH) was used only for the Most High Almighty God (Psalm 83:18, KJV) who is the Father in heaven (Is. 64:8).

Ego eimi literally means "I am"!! Did the ex-blind man at John 9:9 really mean he had always existed??

Do you mean that Jesus could not have existed before Abraham and still have been born to Mary? Why not? If one of the angels who came to earth in human form said he existed before Moses, would we have to believe he was lying?

lol

You seem to like to only take things that supports your view

the pharisees, who spoke fluent hebrew and greek, fell back and picked up stones to stone him for declaring himself to be god, that’s the only proof I need

so your saying Jesus was an angel?

 

[Brakelite]

@Joseph77
2000 years ago Jesus gave His life for all mankind. All men and women, past, present, and future, were at that time, justified by the blood of the Lamb. You, me, even Jehovah Witnesses. Now of course that doesn't necessarily mean everyone goes to heaven, or the new Earth because we all know that there are choices to be made.
But tell me. You tell the Jehovah witness here that he is deceived and accursed and a heretic because in your opinion he hasn't got his theology right when it comes to putting pen to paper in offering a definition you can agree with concerning the nature of God. But tell me. Name one man on this planet who you believe has got it exactly right regarding God's nature? Me, I don't think any of us has got everything exactly right, regarding anything in scripture. If we did, we would have nothing to learn about God in the future and life would be utterly boring. So do you think God is going to condemn a Jehovah's witness because he hasn't got stuff precisely correct, even though he follows his conscience and lives as best he can according to the light he has? Cos aren't you, me, and everyone else in the same boat?

 

[Joseph77]

This is a mute point - not found in Scripture. Why bring it up ?

Name one man on this planet who you believe has got it exactly right regarding God's nature?

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Not in my opinion, the jws false god, idolatry, false jesus, is well known worldwide, and was exposed clearly decades ago.
David Bercot recently , who was raised in a family as a jw, made this very clear also - they serve a god of this world, not the Creator.
Their teachings are false.

You tell the Jehovah witness here that he is deceived and accursed and a heretic because in your opinion he hasn't got his theology right when it comes to putting pen to paper in offering a definition you can agree with concerning the nature of God.

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He serves a false god, as shown in all his posts, his life, his character, as long as he thinks jws are right or good or can save him.

So do you think God is going to condemn a Jehovah's witness because he hasn't got stuff precisely correct, even though he follows his conscience and lives as best he can according to the light he has? Cos aren't you, me, and everyone else in the same boat?

If God permits, if he has a working living conscience, he knows deep down and is convicted by his conscience every time he hears the truth.
If he turns to God, to be healed, and repents (turns away from ) his sin, God may "heal his land"....