Is my understanding of the timeline of end-times events accurate?

[Davy]

The soul currently is not immortal, but it does leave the body when the body dies.

Gen 35:16 And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
Gen 35:17 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Gen 35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Here the soul is leaving body at death.

1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Here we have a dead child whose soul has left body. After prayer, allows soul to return to child and child comes back to life. The body dead if soul is not present.


Isa_53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Again we see that the soul being "poured out" results in a death.

The problem with Jewish tradition is that they rely on the Genesis 2:7 verse meaning that the 'soul' is created WITH the flesh. They don't understand that the 'soul' is immaterial, of that other dimension of Spirit.

And even today, many brethren are 'scared' to even think... about the existence of that other dimension of Spirit, the Heavenly dimension where God and the angels live, simply because to them it is like an 'unknown', and people fear the unknown.

Yet that Heavenly dimension is written of in God's Word and revealed in many Scriptures, even by those you posted above, but 'something'... has put the fear in them to not want to think about that other dimension. I chalk it up mostly to false Hollywood movies and TV fabrications. Even lately the actor Russel Crowe is playing a Catholic priest exorcist in a re-run of the old movie The Exorcist with a different title. I guess when you get older as an actor you have to take whatever's available to keeping working.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The problem with Jewish tradition is that they rely on the Genesis 2:7 verse meaning that the 'soul' is created WITH the flesh. They don't understand that the 'soul' is immaterial, of that other dimension of Spirit.

This is not Jewish tradition....it is taught in Jewish scripture. The ancient Jews (as opposed to more modern day Judaism) had no belief in an immortal soul because their scripture never mentioned it. They believed only in resurrection. Jesus demonstrated what a resurrection is by bringing the dead back to life. They never went anywhere.
Read the account about Lazarus...Jesus said he was “sleeping”, and waking him up.....(John 11:11-14)

To understand the resurrection, you have to understand what death is. It is the very opposite of life....nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures is there any verse that says the soul is immortal or that the dead live on in another form, in another realm. The Greeks promoted that idea and it appealed to humans, who are not programmed for death at all.
If death takes us to a better place, then why do we grieve.....? What don’t we rejoice when someone dies?
Our loved ones are not meant to be taken away from us.....losing them leaves scars that sometimes never heal.

And even today, many brethren are 'scared' to even think... about the existence of that other dimension of Spirit, the Heavenly dimension where God and the angels live, simply because to them it is like an 'unknown', and people fear the unknown.

Fear has been used all through time by the devil to encourage gullible people to comply with his will. Fear of death is his greatest weapon. Inventing hellfire was a masterstroke on his part.

God never uses fear, but encourages love to draw people to him. Jesus was his Father’s representative and portrayed a loving, compassionate and just Father in his own personality. Anyone who saw Jesus knew what his Father was like as he reflected him in every way. (Col 1:15)

Yet that Heavenly dimension is written of in God's Word and revealed in many Scriptures, even by those you posted above, but 'something'... has put the fear in them to not want to think about that other dimension.

The desire to go to heaven is unnatural because humans have a strong connection to the earth, which was created for them to enjoy for all eternity. When humans sinned they lost their paradise but were still confined to the earth. Life outside the garden was a harsh contrast to the life they had enjoyed in the garden. They now had to work for their food and the ground was cursed so that it would yield little for their hard work. Mankind descended from the first rebels so they never got to see or to experience what that paradise was like...they never even got a glimpse of it because God barred the way back to the garden.

But our earthly paradise is not gone forever....what God starts, he finishes (isa 55:11) His first purpose for mankind will be reinstated after a detour that was designed to give all God’s children, both in heaven and on earth a first hand experience as to what it means to leave God out of their decisions.

I chalk it up mostly to false Hollywood movies and TV fabrications. Even lately the actor Russel Crowe is playing a Catholic priest exorcist in a re-run of the old movie The Exorcist with a different title. I guess when you get older as an actor you have to take whatever's available to keeping working.

Hollywood is notorious for its evil influence, and nowhere is that more obvious than in the range of satanically inspired movies that are currently screening....the more graphic the violence or the sex, the better the box office profits....supernatural themes are fed to children so that spiritistic things are an accepted norm. Nothing seems to have shock value anymore.

When Jesus said that the time of his return would be “just like the days of Noah”...(Matt 24:37-39) he wasn’t kidding.....violence, sexual immorality and demonic activity are very evident in today’s world and the majority see no problem with it.....the people of Noah’s day must have been brainwashed in the same manner....only Noah found favour in God’s eyes.

The world is so saturated with satan’s thinking that only true Christians will work hard not to be influenced in their thinking, words and actions. They must stand out as different....like Noah, whom Peter said was a “preacher of righteousness”.....a lone voice in his day.....and his strict obedience to the commands of his God despite the ridicule and derision they received, saved his whole family.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It’s amazing to me how thoroughly Satan has indoctrinated people with this immortal soul nonsense.

It's amazing to me how he has fooled you into thinking otherwise. I showed you a passage where John saw the souls of physically dead believers and they were conscious. Why did you not address that? Because you can't? You'd rather respond with your useless rhetoric instead?

It was never something taught to the Israelites and therefore not taught by Jesus or the apostles who were all Jewish and used the Hebrew Scriptures exclusively.

Belief in an immortal soul that escapes from the body to live on is NOT a Bible teaching. The Jews believed in resurrection, which was a restoration to life, not a continuation of it.

The Jews were mistaken about a lot of things. Most of them did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. So, don't act as if what they believed dictates what I should believe. That is nonsense.

Where did Jesus say that his friend Lazarus was before he raised him from his grave?

John 11:11-14...
“These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. (NKJV) “Dead” = “sleep”. There is no consciousness in death. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10) Ability to think or plan as well as all emotions, cease...even “love”.

John 3:13 tells us that no one went to heaven before Jesus....so where did all those “souls” go, who died before Jesus did?

Abraham's bosom. Have you never read Luke 16:19-31? You're being lazy. Read the whole Bible instead of just reading the parts out of context that you think support your false doctrine.

When you don’t have the truth, you have invent scenarios...like places for souls to go when they die....?

You don't have the truth, so you are contradicting the scriptures which teach that the souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

This passage makes it very clear that you don't have to be in your body in order to be with the Lord. Paul very clearly taught here that he would prefer to be away from the body in order to be at home with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In heaven. So, Paul clearly believed that when his body died, his spirit and soul would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

That is what he indicated here as well:

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Paul was torn between wanting to physically die so that he could "depart and be with Christ" and wanting to remain physically alive so that he could serve the people that needed his help. He concluded that it was "more necessary" for them that he "remain in the body".

You do understand that the Revelation was presented in symbolisms.....? Just read it and see that symbolism is everywhere. Hardly anything is literal.

Yes, I am well aware of that, but John did see the souls of the dead. That part is not symbolic. If it was, then what would the souls of the dead he saw symbolize? I don't believe they are literally under a literal altar, but it does imply that they are in heaven and are conscious.

The “souls” are the symbolic “lives” of those who were martyred, unless you believe that what John saw was in reality a bunch of executed souls sitting under the alter...?

Symbolic lives? That's nonsense. Do you deny that people have souls or something? We have a spirit, a soul and a body.

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When you read scripture without pre-conceived ideas planted by someone other than God, you can read scripture as it is written......not reading it with whatever ideas you want to find...and God will not stop you from doing so. Hearts respond to the truth....or they don’t.....God is observing all of us who read his word and who are searching for the truth....they will be directed to the diamond in a large pile of broken glass. (John 6:65)

Have you ever read 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 or Philippians 1:21-24? If so, why do you not believe what scriptures like those teach?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's amazing to me how he has fooled you into thinking otherwise. I showed you a passage where John saw the souls of physically dead believers and they were conscious. Why did you not address that? Because you can't? You'd rather respond with your useless rhetoric instead?

I responded but you obviously read right over what was said. Very little of the Revelation is literal....the "souls" were not alive and living under the alter for the last two thousand years crying out for justice.....that is ridiculous! Is that how you imagine heaven?
Their crying out to God is the very same as that which God spoke about in Genesis regarding the blood of Abel crying out to him for justice. (Gen 4:8-10) Do you not know what symbolism is?

The Jews were mistaken about a lot of things. Most of them did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. So, don't act as if what they believed dictates what I should believe. That is nonsense.

Again you are not reading what is written....I spoke of the scriptures that were given to Israel which as it states in 2 Tim 3:16-17, was "inspired by God". The Hebrew scriptures were all they had back then. Its got nothing to do with how they corrupted their faith or how they misinterpreted their scripture. The scriptures themselves were not at fault...they were. Just as it is in Christendom and her many interpretations.....take your pick.

Abraham's bosom. Have you never read Luke 16:19-31? You're being lazy. Read the whole Bible instead of just reading the parts out of context that you think support your false doctrine.

Oh dear.... its comments like these that demonstrate who doesn't understand what they read in their Bible....

This is a parable, not to be taken literally. It is highly symbolic of the two groups to whom Jesus gave a witness.
The rich man represented the Pharisees, who rejected Jesus because he exposed them as hypocritical frauds, bound for "gehenna". (Matt 23:13, 33) They plotted his death, whilst the poor beggar represented the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees were incorrigible and lost their place of favor with God, (that is "the bosom of Abraham") whilst the spiritually impoverished beggar gained what the rich man lost....God's favor was shifted to them because they did accept Jesus as Messiah.

Taken literally, would make the story ridiculous. Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Would a drop of water on a man's finger cool someone in a blazing fire?
The deaths are also symbolic, because Jewish scripture did not teach about life after death. Jesus preached to an exclusively Jewish audience so it has to be viewed through a Jewish lens.

You don't have the truth, so you are contradicting the scriptures which teach that the souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

This passage makes it very clear that you don't have to be in your body in order to be with the Lord. Paul very clearly taught here that he would prefer to be away from the body in order to be at home with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In heaven. So, Paul clearly believed that when his body died, his spirit and soul would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

Well, it doesn't actually....those chosen for a role as "kings and priests" in heaven with their Lord, (Rev 20:6) knew that being "born again" meant giving up their flesh, to be resurrected or "born again" in a spirit body...one capable of dwelling in heaven, in the presence of God.
Those who were anointed with God's spirit had a token given to them in advance of their heavenly reward.....they knew that they were going to heaven to be with Jesus and to fulfill the role for which they were chosen. They were impatient for the fulfillment of that promise but also knew that whilst in the flesh, there was work to do in the service of their Lord.

That is what he indicated here as well:

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Paul was torn between wanting to physically die so that he could "depart and be with Christ" and wanting to remain physically alive so that he could serve the people that needed his help. He concluded that it was "more necessary" for them that he "remain in the body".

Being torn between the two is exactly what these spirit anointed "brothers" of Christ experienced. This desire to go to heaven was powerful, but it had to override the natural desire of all humans to live in paradise on earth....the life for which we were 'programmed' because this was supposed to be our permanent home. People's vision of heaven is almost always like the garden of Eden.....
The earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven. It was already occupied by a large spiritual family that God created to live there.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued...

Yes, I am well aware of that, but John did see the souls of the dead. That part is not symbolic. If it was, then what would the souls of the dead he saw symbolize? I don't believe they are literally under a literal altar, but it does imply that they are in heaven and are conscious.

It was to symbolize that all those who gave up their lives for Christ would be vindicated.....justice would be served and their reward guaranteed by the one for whom they gave up their lives (souls). (Heb 11:6, Matt 10:39)

Symbolic lives? That's nonsense. Do you deny that people have souls or something? We have a spirit, a soul and a body.

1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again you don't read what is written....look at the context....to whom was this written?

"Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who labor among you and preside over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them most highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. 14 And we urge you, brothers and sisters, admonish the undisciplined, comfort the discouraged, help the weak, be patient toward all. 15 See that no one pays back evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good for one another and for all. 16 Always rejoice, 17 constantly pray, 18 in everything give thanks. For this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not extinguish the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 But examine all things; hold fast to what is good. 22 Stay away from every form of evil.

23 Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. " (1 Thess 5:12-23)

It isn't saying what you assume it does. Paul is addressing the collective members of the congregation in Thessalonica.
Collectively, the spirit, the soul (life) and the body, mean something entirely different here. The 'spirit' is the motivating force that bolsters faith.....the 'soul' is the life that they collectively strive to maintain as a a united group...and the 'body' of Christ needs no explanation...they were all of that body.

Have you ever read 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 or Philippians 1:21-24? If so, why do you not believe what scriptures like those teach?

"Therefore we are always full of courage, and we know that as long as we are alive here on earth we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we live by faith, not by sight. 8 Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Cor 5:6-8)
Read now in the light of what it means to want to be "away from the body" of flesh and to be reborn with a spirit body to be "at home with the Lord" as co-rulers in his heavenly Kingdom, and to become priests under his High Priesthood, these verses take on a different connotation.

Not all Christians have "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1)
The Kingdom is the "New Heavens" (Christ and his anointed ones) ruling over the "New Earth" where righteousness is to dwell. (2 Pet 3:13)
Who were going to inherit the earth? The "meek" and teachable ones who can see why God put us here, and how he dealt with the abuse of free will that led us into sin and death.

What about Phil 1:21-24...?
"For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. 22 Now if I am to go on living in the body, this will mean productive work for me, yet I don’t know which I prefer: 23 I feel torn between the two, because I have a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far, 24 but it is more vital for your sake that I remain in the body."

Do you see the dilemma? He did not know what going to heaven would be like, and yet he had a strong desire to go there....You also see that the work that Jesus assigned for his disciples on earth was also very important, especially for the apostles. (Matt 28:19-20) All Christians have that assignment.....preaching about God's Kingdom, and what it will do for those who will live on earth forever. (Matt 24:14; Rev 21:2-4)

The Christian scriptures were written by the anointed, for the anointed and by extension in principle to those who will be ruled by them.
Those who do not have the anointing will not go to heaven.....it was never in God's original purpose to have humans live anywhere but here on this specially and lovingly prepared planet.

What do people expect to do in heaven? I haven't found anyone who knows exactly why they are going there....except the spirit anointed ones....and I have met very few of them, as most are already stationed in their positions ready for the Kingdom to take over control of this sad and sorry planet. (Dan 2:44)

 

[ewq1938]

Please read post # 35....its all explained there.

The soul "departing" means Rachel's life was ebbing away.

It also means what it and the other verses say, that the soul can leave the body, as well as return.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It also means what it and the other verses say, that the soul can leave the body, as well as return.

Since Jesus said in John 3:13...
"....no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
So if no one went to heaven before Jesus, then where did Rachel's 'soul' go when 'it' departed?
Where did the Jews believe that their dead ended up?
Lazarus' sister plainly stated what she believed about her brother.....
Jesus said...."
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep. But I am going there to awaken him.” 12 Then the disciples replied, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 (Now Jesus had been talking about his death, but they thought he had been talking about real sleep.)
14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died. . . . . .
So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will grant you.”

23 Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.” 24 Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies". (John 11:11-14, 20-25)

Where had Lazarus gone? Did Jesus say that he was in heaven...obviously not, because he referred to him as being "asleep" and he was going to "awaken him". How did Jesus do that? Did he call his disembodied soul to come back into his body? Did Lazarus appear to be disappointed upon arriving back on earth in the flesh, after being in a spirit body in such a wonderful place for four days?

What did Martha say was her hope for her dead brother? “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”
So what did she mean? "Come back to life"? Can it be said that you 'come back' to somewhere if you actually go somewhere else? What is "the resurrection on the last day"? Can you tell me?

There was no 'heaven or hell' scenario in Jewish scripture, so Jesus and the apostles never taught that there was an immortal part of man that left the body invisibly at death. When he raised Lazarus, Jesus brought him back to THIS life to be reunited with his family....in all the resurrections Jesus performed, he did the same thing....he didn't just talk about the resurrection.....he demonstrated it. He called a dead man out of his grave...alive. He restored the son of a widow to life, and gave him back to his grateful mother, and he raised a little girl and reunited her with her overjoyed parents. Did he bring them back from heaven? Is that what the Bible says?

Jesus will 'bring back to life' all those who 'sleep' in their graves today...only the elect will receive a heavenly resurrection and their resurrection is completely different to that which Jesus performed. They will undergo the same resurrection as Jesus himself experienced, "being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18)

The rest of mankind will see John 5:28-29 fulfilled...
"Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation."
Those in their tombs will hear Jesus call in the future.....Jesus said that "time was coming" not that it was already happening.....and they will come out of their tombs, just like Lazarus did...back to life on earth for the majority, once Jesus takes over world rulership. Even those who had done evil things in the past (likely due to ignorance), will have an opportunity to bring their lives into harmony with God...if they don't, condemnation will follow and their lives will be terminated.

So if you wish to believe something other than what the scriptures say.....then nothing I say will alter what you want to believe....we will all find out soon enough......some will come to great disappointment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I responded but you obviously read right over what was said. Very little of the Revelation is literal....the "souls" were not alive and living under the alter for the last two thousand years crying out for justice.....that is ridiculous! Is that how you imagine heaven?

I understand that it's not talking about them being literally under a physical altar, but it does imply that they are conscious. Just because something is written with symbolism doesn't make it fictional. It seems that you don't even understand that people have souls. Scripture teaches that we do. You are deceived.

Their crying out to God is the very same as that which God spoke about in Genesis regarding the blood of Abel crying out to him for justice. (Gen 4:8-10) Do you not know what symbolism is?

Yes, I know what symbolism is. And I know that people have souls, unlike you. You are deceived.

Again you are not reading what is written....I spoke of the scriptures that were given to Israel which as it states in 2 Tim 3:16-17, was "inspired by God". The Hebrew scriptures were all they had back then. Its got nothing to do with how they corrupted their faith or how they misinterpreted their scripture. The scriptures themselves were not at fault...they were. Just as it is in Christendom and her many interpretations.....take your pick.

You are putting your trust in Jews who mostly had no understanding of the scriptures they were reading. That's a bad idea. You are deceived.

Oh dear.... its comments like these that demonstrate who doesn't understand what they read in their Bible....

You clearly don't. Your arrogance is clouding your vision. You clearly rely entirely on your faulty intellect for understanding. You are deceived.

This is a parable, not to be taken literally. It is highly symbolic of the two groups to whom Jesus gave a witness.

It is NOT a parable. Parables do not reference people by name like Jesus did in Luke 16:19-31. If it was a parable then the beggar Lazarus would not have been named. The rich man specifically mentioned that he had five brothers. That type of detail is not something that would be included in a parable. And Abraham would not have been referenced by name if it was a parable, either. Jesus was giving insight into the spiritual realm there, but you think He was making up a story. You are deceived.

The rich man represented the Pharisees, who rejected Jesus because he exposed them as hypocritical frauds, bound for "gehenna". (Matt 23:13, 33) They plotted his death, whilst the poor beggar represented the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees were incorrigible and lost their place of favor with God, (that is "the bosom of Abraham") whilst the spiritually impoverished beggar gained what the rich man lost....God's favor was shifted to them because they did accept Jesus as Messiah.

You are making things up. The rich man was an actual rich man who had five brothers. Who did the beggar Lazarus represent if he was not an actual person? If he was only symbolic why was he given a name? That would make no sense. It's not a parable. You are deceived.

Taken literally, would make the story ridiculous. Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Would a drop of water on a man's finger cool someone in a blazing fire?

I am not saying it's all literal, but I am saying that it's not a parable and it gives some insight into the spirit realm. You can't read it and conclude that no one is conscious after death. That would be ridiculous since that is very strongly implied. How things are there in a literal sense is probably something we cannot currently fully comprehend, so that's why Jesus talked about it in the way He did. But, what He strongly implied is that people in heaven and hell are conscious. You are deceived.

Well, it doesn't actually....those chosen for a role as "kings and priests" in heaven with their Lord, (Rev 20:6) knew that being "born again" meant giving up their flesh, to be resurrected or "born again" in a spirit body...one capable of dwelling in heaven, in the presence of God.
Those who were anointed with God's spirit had a token given to them in advance of their heavenly reward.....they knew that they were going to heaven to be with Jesus and to fulfill the role for which they were chosen. They were impatient for the fulfillment of that promise but also knew that whilst in the flesh, there was work to do in the service of their Lord.

Is this supposed to be a convincing argument? I hope not. It's pure gibberish. You are deceived. Paul very clearly indicated that being away from the body (physically/bodily dead) was to be present with the Lord (what else could be present with the Lord apart from the body except for one's spirit and soul?). You are deceived.

Being torn between the two is exactly what these spirit anointed "brothers" of Christ experienced. This desire to go to heaven was powerful, but it had to override the natural desire of all humans to live in paradise on earth....the life for which we were 'programmed' because this was supposed to be our permanent home. People's vision of heaven is almost always like the garden of Eden.....
The earth was never intended to be a training ground for heaven. It was already occupied by a large spiritual family that God created to live there.

Again, is this supposed to be a convincing argument? Not even close. Paul clearly was torn between remaining in the body (did you even read the text?!) or staying with them. He indicated that he was torn between departing his body and being with Christ, which he said was by far the better option for him, or staying alive with the people who needed him, which was the better option for them.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

It seems clear to me that you are not even reading this because what you're saying is not reflected in what Paul said at all. You are deceived.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It seems clear to me that you are not even reading this because what you're saying is not reflected in what Paul said at all. You are deceived.

Well, one of us is deceived....so won't it be interesting to find out who is telling the truth from the Bible, not doctrine?

Do those who are deceived KNOW that they are? Isn't that the purpose of deception? The deceived usually find out too late that the deceiver was having a lend of them for his own selfish purpose.

The truth will be vindicated, and so will those who uphold it. These are the "few" that Jesus spoke about...not the "many" who are all happily traveling the superhighway to destruction, with lots of company (Matthew 7:13-14).....unaware that it is a dead end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, one of us is deceived....

That would be you, just to be clear.

so won't it be interesting to find out who is telling the truth from the Bible, not doctrine?

I already know. I don't have to wait to find out. That you feel you have to wait to find out shows that you are not really sure about what you believe, which makes sense since what you believe is not something anyone should feel confident about.

Do those who are deceived KNOW that they are?

No, which is why you are not aware of it even though I have told you that you are. I didn't tell you so that you could know you are deceived, I told you so that you might reconsider what you currently believe.

Isn't that the purpose of deception?

Of course. I didn't say otherwise.

The deceived usually find out too late that the deceiver was having a lend of them for his own selfish purpose.

It doesn't have to be too late for you since I'm letting you know that you are deceived. You have time to do something about it. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[strepho]

Were in 5th trump. Satan as antichrist comes 6th trump to Jerusalem. Jesus returns 7th trump to Jerusalem. Theirs two different weddings. Majority will worship antichrist, go to wrong Wedding. Second thessalonians chapter 2, son of perdition arrives 6th trump in Jerusalem. This is satan in his role as antichrist. Those playing church will worship antichrist. They are spirtualty bankrupt. Lack knowledge. Proverbs, The just are delivered by knowledge. Oil is truth. God is sending strong delusions on those who love not the truth. Revelation chapter 13, this is one world political system. Near future, it receives deadly wound. Satan as antichrist will heal deadly wound by establishing world peace. It's 5 month period, read revelation chapter 9. God will test the world near future. Majority will flunk out. Those who have gospel armory on will be victorious. Ephesians chapter 6. Those who lack knowledge, will worship antichrist and go to sheol. What is sheol?? Its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. The saints are in paradise.

 

[ewq1938]

Since Jesus said in John 3:13...
"....no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
So if no one went to heaven before Jesus, then where did Rachel's 'soul' go when 'it' departed?

Souls can go to heaven, they are shown in the 5th seal in Rev.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It doesn't have to be too late for you since I'm letting you know that you are deceived. You have time to do something about it. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Well, thank you...that is my sincere wish for you also....its not too late to learn the truth, but you have to love it, and leave the lies behind.
I love what God is about to do for mankind on this earth. I have prayed for its success as I read the Lord's Prayer in the Bible. God's Kingdom will "come" so that God's will can be "done on earth as it is in heaven"...."the meek shall inherit the earth"...Jesus said its our inheritance.

He has set up the means to guide us back to paradise....not heaven. No such thing was ever held out to Adam in the beginning.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, thank you...that is my sincere wish for you also....its not too late to learn the truth, but you have to love it, and leave the lies behind.
I love what God is about to do for mankind on this earth. I have prayed for its success as I read the Lord's Prayer in the Bible. God's Kingdom will "come" so that God's will can be "done on earth as it is in heaven"...."the meek shall inherit the earth"...Jesus said its our inheritance.

He has set up the means to guide us back to paradise....not heaven. No such thing was ever held out to Adam in the beginning.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[rwb]

All living creatures are called “souls” in the Bible. All souls breathe, but when breathing stops, the soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4).....only man was made in God’s image and designed for unending life. We have no “program” for death....it is still as foreign and dreaded by us as it always was. The majority of animals do not respond to death like we do.....they accept it as part of life...we don’t. We know it’s inevitable but something inside us is desperate to continue living. The human soul (person) is restored to life by resurrection.....it isn’t something invisible that departs from the body at death.

Yes, you're correct! It is not the soul that departs the body after death! It is the spirit that God gave that returns to Him when the body dies, and if he/she died in Christ that spirit then is a living soul without a body in heaven (Ecc 12:7). People of faith in Christ have no reason to fear death. I don't fear death, but I do fear suffering physically. Paul certainly did not fear death, because he knew that when he was absent from his body through death, he would be spiritually alive with Christ in heaven, because he was indwelt by the life-giving Spirit of Christ who would not depart from him.

You're also correct in understanding believers who have died in Christ shall be wholly restored when their bodies are resurrected from the graves to immortality & incorruption, and reunited with our living spirit, to be with Christ forevermore on the new earth.

I believe that you are confusing what Jesus said about “immortality” for his elect, because only the they are granted an immortal life when they are “born again” as spirit beings in the “first resurrection”. (Rev 20:6)

To be born again through His Spirit is to have eternal spiritual life to those who were spiritually dead, not immortal life that is also promised shall be of our physical body. We won't become whole again and immortal until the last trumpet sounds and our body is resurrected and changed. John writes those who reign with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years have part in the first resurrection, and are therefore called blessed and holy and have no fear of the second death. They are not included with those beheaded martyrs of vs 4 who had already lived and reigned with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. But they are still counted with them and are not of the rest of the dead who shall never have part in the first resurrection in time symbolized a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

Really? If you have access to a concordance look up the word "nep̄eš" (soul) and see how many meanings it has.....

Since Jesus used Jewish scripture exclusively, I don't think quoting the OT is offensive to anyone.

Sorry but you show that Bible study is not your forte'.
According to Strongs, "soul" can be translated as...

self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion.

1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual
5. seat of the appetites
6. seat of emotions and passions
7. activity of mind

The scriptures you quoted would then read....

"21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto Jehovah, and said, O Jehovah my God, I pray Thee, let this child's life come into him again.

22 And Jehovah heard the voice of Elijah; and the life of the child came into him again, and he revived."


Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [Gehenna]

Again, try doing some research and see what the words mean in their original languages.....

"Soul" in this verse is "psychē" which means.....

1. the breath of life
   
   
   1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
      
      
      1. of animals
      2. of men
2. life
3. that in which there is life
   
   
   1. a living being, a living soul."
      

A "soul" is a living, breathing creature. There is no such thing as an "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.
A "soul" is destroyed along with the "body" in "Gehenna"....which is not "hell". It is the lake of fire, which Jesus said was "the second death".....
Its not a literal lake, nor is the fire literal....it is the symbol of eternal death, which is the logical opposite of eternal life. Souls are "destroyed" in that place.

So you can deny what the scriptures say in ignorance, or you can do your homework and actually tell the truth as it is written....not as you assume it to be.

While you have understanding of 'soul' what of the 'spirit' in man, how do you explain 'spirit' that is the breath of life to our mortal body and together (body & spirit) became a 'living soul'? You cannot be a living breathing creature upon the earth without both body and spirit. The spirit in man that returns to God when our body breathes its last, can continue to live after physical death, if we have been born again having the Spirit from Christ in us. But the body without the spirit is altogether dead without the breath of life that is our spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[rwb]

Please read post # 35....its all explained there.

The soul "departing" means Rachel's life was ebbing away. Have you ever sat with a dying person...if you have, then you will know that the final stages of dying for many people is just that. Rachel had just given birth and obviously something went wrong, possibly a hemorrhage and she could feel her life slowly slipping away.

Elijah resurrected the widows son by asking God to restore his soul....which means his life.

Replace "life" for "soul" and you have the truth. There is no immortal part of man that departs from the body at death....but satan wants you to think it does, because that was his first lie....."you surely will not die".

When Scripture speaks of the soul departing from our body, it is simply saying the spirit or breath that gave our body physical life is leaving or has left us. Our body then shall return to dust, and our spirit or breath of life that God has given every living, breathing creature returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit that returns to God after physical death shall either return to Him spiritually alive through His Spirit in us, or it shall return to God without life, for it is the Spirit that gives life and the flesh profits nothing.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Galatians 6:8 (KJV) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[rwb]

I responded but you obviously read right over what was said. Very little of the Revelation is literal....the "souls" were not alive and living under the alter for the last two thousand years crying out for justice.....that is ridiculous! Is that how you imagine heaven?

These living souls indeed were alive after physical death, otherwise they could not cry out at all. They cry out to God because in their time of redemptive history Christ had not yet come to redeem them from death. To be under the altar symbolically means they had faith that a Messiah would come to redeem them and take them to heaven, just as the prophets of old foretold. After being sealed (144,000 thousand from all the tribes of the children of Israel) by the Holy Spirit, they are among the throng seen in heaven, a great innumerable multitude from every nation of the world. Later the same 144,000 are shown with the Lamb on Mount Sion, redeemed from mankind, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb.

These slain saints, after waiting for their fellowservants and Christ their brother to be slain as they were, ascended as living (spirit) souls with Christ to heaven after His cross and resurrection. The little season is not two thousand years as you assume. It was simply the time from Christ's cross to His resurrection in my opinion.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[rwb]

This is a parable, not to be taken literally. It is highly symbolic of the two groups to whom Jesus gave a witness.
The rich man represented the Pharisees, who rejected Jesus because he exposed them as hypocritical frauds, bound for "gehenna". (Matt 23:13, 33) They plotted his death, whilst the poor beggar represented the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees were incorrigible and lost their place of favor with God, (that is "the bosom of Abraham") whilst the spiritually impoverished beggar gained what the rich man lost....God's favor was shifted to them because they did accept Jesus as Messiah.

But the purpose for the parable was to give comfort to His faithful saints. They need not fear death, if in life they possess faith like that of poor Lazarus. God makes a distinction between those of faith in life and in death. Believers, after death, will never be numbered among the dead bound for the eternal flames. When we believe in Christ, we HAVE eternal spiritual life through Him and shall NEVER spiritually die. Because after death our spirit alive through His Spirit will now be carried by the angels to heaven, while the dead are simply cast into the grave to wait in silence and darkness until they are resurrected on the last day, in an hour coming, when they will be called to stand before the GWTJ to give account of their lives according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Then the eternally damned shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second and everlasting death.

 

[rwb]

23 Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. " (1 Thess 5:12-23)

It isn't saying what you assume it does. Paul is addressing the collective members of the congregation in Thessalonica.
Collectively, the spirit, the soul (life) and the body, mean something entirely different here. The 'spirit' is the motivating force that bolsters faith.....the 'soul' is the life that they collectively strive to maintain as a a united group...and the 'body' of Christ needs no explanation...they were all of that body.

We are created with body of the dust of the earth, and spirit, the breath of life that comes from God, and the two together become a living soul. Paul addresses the churches both collectively and individually. Because the church is made up of individuals. Every living person possesses a body and spirit, collectively called 'living souls'. It was Paul's desire that members of the body of Christ, called church, should heed the Spirit of Christ in them. If they did not we would not hear His voice speaking through our spirit. Our spirit is only WHOLE when the Spirit of God is within us, and we hear His voice instructing us of the ways and deeds of God. That's why Paul prays that God might make us complete and holy, so our spirit & body, complete soul, through Christ's Spirit would be whole and blameless before God at the coming of Christ.