Revelation 21:25 "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."No more day and night! Jesus is the light now.Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."One thing I noticed was that it says day and night forever and ever. day and night will not be forever and ever. So to me being a computer nerd, I would think of this statement as an if statementif(dayANDnight = true && foreverANDever = true) torment;I know thats weird but thats how I thought about that.
Is punishment in hell eternal?
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(Vindicated;50756)
Revelation 21:25 "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."No more day and night! Jesus is the light now.Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."One thing I noticed was that it says day and night forever and ever. day and night will not be forever and ever. So to me being a computer nerd, I would think of this statement as an if statementif(dayANDnight = true && foreverANDever = true) torment;I know thats weird but thats how I thought about that.
Good luck with that, but even the early church fathers don't agree with you:http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm"To the unbelieving and despisers...there will be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish. At the end, everlasting fire will possess such men." (Theophilus, c. 180)"All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery." (Clement of Alexandria, c. 195; from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)"We [Christians] alone make a real effort to attain a blameless life. We do this under the influence of... the magnitude of the threatened torment. For it is not merely long-enduring; rather, it is everlasting." (Tertullian, c. 197)"Some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire." (Justin Martyr, c. 160)"Eternal fire is prepared for sinners. The Lord has plainly declared this and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it." (Irenaeus, c. 180)You two are trying to swim up Niagara falls with this doctrine.
Revelation 21:25 "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."No more day and night! Jesus is the light now.Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."One thing I noticed was that it says day and night forever and ever. day and night will not be forever and ever. So to me being a computer nerd, I would think of this statement as an if statementif(dayANDnight = true && foreverANDever = true) torment;I know thats weird but thats how I thought about that.
Good luck with that, but even the early church fathers don't agree with you:http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm"To the unbelieving and despisers...there will be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish. At the end, everlasting fire will possess such men." (Theophilus, c. 180)"All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery." (Clement of Alexandria, c. 195; from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)"We [Christians] alone make a real effort to attain a blameless life. We do this under the influence of... the magnitude of the threatened torment. For it is not merely long-enduring; rather, it is everlasting." (Tertullian, c. 197)"Some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire." (Justin Martyr, c. 160)"Eternal fire is prepared for sinners. The Lord has plainly declared this and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it." (Irenaeus, c. 180)You two are trying to swim up Niagara falls with this doctrine.
I've been reading "Word Studies in the Greek New Testament" (Volume III) by Dr. Kenneth Wuest who was one of the NASB translators and was also a professor of Greek.I would be happy to xerox and mail anyone a copy of pages 34 to 43 but he quotes Moulton and Milligan's "Vocabulary of the Greek Testament", Grimm-Thayer, Webster's International Dictionary, Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Gree, by Herman Cremer, D.D., the LXX, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D., Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (classical).Wuest says "Matthew 25:41 tells us that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. The word 'prepared' in the Greek is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of a past complete action that has present results."-p.40 (second section of books bundled together in one book)Wuest also writes "As to Mark 3:29, the best Greek texts have 'sin' instead of 'damnation,' which latter word appears in the A.V., as translation of a Greek word meaning 'judgment," and which is a rejected reading. The words 'in danger of' are from a Greek word which refers to anyone 'held in anything so that he cannot escape.' Thus the one who committed the sin referred to in this passage in the grasp of an eternal sin, the sin being eternal, not in the sense of eternally repeating itself, but in that it is eternal in its guilt. Such a sin demands eternal punishment. In II Thessalonians 1:9 we have 'everlasting destruction.' The Greek word translated 'destruction' does not mean 'annihilation.' Moulton and Milligan define its first century Biblical usage as follows: 'ruin, the loss of all that gives worth to existence.' Thayer in his lexicon gives the meanings 'ruin, destruction, death.' The word comes from the verb meaning 'to destroy.' But to destroy something does not mean to put it out of existence, but to ruin it, to reduce it to such form that it loses all that gave worth to its existence. One may burn down a beautiful mansion. The materials which composed it are still in existence, a heap of ashes, but it is in such form that it has lost all that gave worth to its existence as a mansion. The eternal condition in which the soul lives forever in a state devoid of all that makes existence worthwhile."-p. 41
When I saw the title of this thread, I was reminded of a debate I recently read. Here is something the Christian Universalist wrote
"Samuel Cripps")
Aionios and the Biblical Concept of EternityMy opponent has stated that Hellfire is eternal. I agree. Many might find this an odd thing for a Scriptural Universalist to say, but I have no reservations in admitting as much. To be sure, there have been a number of Christian Universalists who have insisted that the Greek word aionios never means “eternal” and that it always, in the Bible at least, pertains to an indefinite period of time. While it is true that aionios is, at times, used in contexts where “eternal” is impossible if not unlikely, I cannot, in good conscience, adopt this narrow view. Scholarship and context have proven that this rich Greek word indeed carries the meaning of eternity. Does aionios mean ‘eternal’ in the verses (Matthew 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Jude 1:7) cited by my opponent? I believe that it does. Does this prove that some will never be saved? Not at all!My opponent insists that eternal punishment consists in being punished forever. Does his interpretation represent the only viable application of the term aionios? No, it is not, for consider:“Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].” Hebrews 9:12Does this verse mean that the redeeming process lasts forever? Of course not! Rather, it is the end result of the process which is everlasting. Seeing that the word “eternal” is applied in this manner in Hebrews 9:12, my opponent must demonstrate why “eternal punishment” refers to an everlasting punitive process rather than referring to the final result of the punishing process.What is the Biblical concept of eternity? First it must be noted that God is the only eternal being in the primary sense. That is to say, only God is eternal by virtue of being who He is. All other things are eternal only insofar as they derive their eternality from God. Our eternal life, for instance, is participatory; we partake in the life of Christ. Eternal destruction, I thus propose, is eternal by virtue of originating in God. In other words, to suffer eternal destruction is to suffer destruction at the hands of God, as opposed to destruction at the hands of mortals (this idea is articulated in Matthew 10:28). Likewise, eternal life is that sort of life which is peculiar to God, in contrast to mortal life. Eternity, according to the Bible, is without beginning nor end, and thus transcends time (Revelation 1:8 , 22:13). As mentioned before, the Greek word translated “eternal” in many places in the Bible is aionios. From its first known appearance in Greek literature (see the works of Plato, e.g. Timaeus 37d), aionios was used of that which transcends the physical world of time. This sense is retained in the New Testament, as is evident considering that this word is routinely used in the New Testament contexts in which its juxtaposition to things perishable and material is manifest. "For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1 Here aionios is used of the indissoluble things of Heaven in contrast to the things of the mundane world of corruption. "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal." -2 Corinthians 4:18 In this verse, aionios describes the eternal truths which human eyes and ears have not seen nor heard, for these truths belong to the unseen realm of God as opposed to the visible world of change.. "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 Aionios here refers to that Heavenly life which does not fade nor falter; It is the very life of Christ in contradistinction to the perishable life that humanity has in Adam. This life that Christ gives - the very life of God - is not of this world, but is of the unseen realm of Spirit: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." - John 3:6 So then, what do we make of those verses which speak of "eternal destruction" and "eternal punishment"? I suggest that it is the sort of destruction/punishment which originates in the eternal God. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" - 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 Here we read that the wicked will be destroyed by Heavenly fire (note that the Greek word apo does not signify that the destruction consists in being away from God, but that the destruction comes from God). Eternal destruction, evidently, is none but destruction from on high, just as eternal punishment is simply that sort of perfect parental punishment which originates in the Heavenly Father. “In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7The word aionios here serves to make the point that the fire and punishment in view is not ordinary, but rather from God. The eternal fire is God Himself (Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:29). If punishment by the fire of God precludes salvation, then we are all in big trouble, for Scripture declares that all believers will reap the consequences of what they have sown in the flesh (as opposed to things which they have sown in the Spirit) by being subjected to the trying fire of God (1 Corinthians 3:15; Galatians 6:7).
"Samuel Cripps")Aionios and the Biblical Concept of EternityMy opponent has stated that Hellfire is eternal. I agree. Many might find this an odd thing for a Scriptural Universalist to say, but I have no reservations in admitting as much. To be sure, there have been a number of Christian Universalists who have insisted that the Greek word aionios never means “eternal” and that it always, in the Bible at least, pertains to an indefinite period of time. While it is true that aionios is, at times, used in contexts where “eternal” is impossible if not unlikely, I cannot, in good conscience, adopt this narrow view. Scholarship and context have proven that this rich Greek word indeed carries the meaning of eternity. Does aionios mean ‘eternal’ in the verses (Matthew 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Jude 1:7) cited by my opponent? I believe that it does. Does this prove that some will never be saved? Not at all!My opponent insists that eternal punishment consists in being punished forever. Does his interpretation represent the only viable application of the term aionios? No, it is not, for consider:“Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].” Hebrews 9:12Does this verse mean that the redeeming process lasts forever? Of course not! Rather, it is the end result of the process which is everlasting. Seeing that the word “eternal” is applied in this manner in Hebrews 9:12, my opponent must demonstrate why “eternal punishment” refers to an everlasting punitive process rather than referring to the final result of the punishing process.What is the Biblical concept of eternity? First it must be noted that God is the only eternal being in the primary sense. That is to say, only God is eternal by virtue of being who He is. All other things are eternal only insofar as they derive their eternality from God. Our eternal life, for instance, is participatory; we partake in the life of Christ. Eternal destruction, I thus propose, is eternal by virtue of originating in God. In other words, to suffer eternal destruction is to suffer destruction at the hands of God, as opposed to destruction at the hands of mortals (this idea is articulated in Matthew 10:28). Likewise, eternal life is that sort of life which is peculiar to God, in contrast to mortal life. Eternity, according to the Bible, is without beginning nor end, and thus transcends time (Revelation 1:8 , 22:13). As mentioned before, the Greek word translated “eternal” in many places in the Bible is aionios. From its first known appearance in Greek literature (see the works of Plato, e.g. Timaeus 37d), aionios was used of that which transcends the physical world of time. This sense is retained in the New Testament, as is evident considering that this word is routinely used in the New Testament contexts in which its juxtaposition to things perishable and material is manifest. "For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1 Here aionios is used of the indissoluble things of Heaven in contrast to the things of the mundane world of corruption. "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal." -2 Corinthians 4:18 In this verse, aionios describes the eternal truths which human eyes and ears have not seen nor heard, for these truths belong to the unseen realm of God as opposed to the visible world of change.. "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 Aionios here refers to that Heavenly life which does not fade nor falter; It is the very life of Christ in contradistinction to the perishable life that humanity has in Adam. This life that Christ gives - the very life of God - is not of this world, but is of the unseen realm of Spirit: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." - John 3:6 So then, what do we make of those verses which speak of "eternal destruction" and "eternal punishment"? I suggest that it is the sort of destruction/punishment which originates in the eternal God. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" - 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 Here we read that the wicked will be destroyed by Heavenly fire (note that the Greek word apo does not signify that the destruction consists in being away from God, but that the destruction comes from God). Eternal destruction, evidently, is none but destruction from on high, just as eternal punishment is simply that sort of perfect parental punishment which originates in the Heavenly Father. “In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7The word aionios here serves to make the point that the fire and punishment in view is not ordinary, but rather from God. The eternal fire is God Himself (Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:29). If punishment by the fire of God precludes salvation, then we are all in big trouble, for Scripture declares that all believers will reap the consequences of what they have sown in the flesh (as opposed to things which they have sown in the Spirit) by being subjected to the trying fire of God (1 Corinthians 3:15; Galatians 6:7).
(Vindicated;50175)
Is punishment of the soul in Hell eternal?Mattew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.kill (G615){1) to kill in any way whatevera) to destroy, to allow to perish2) metaph. to extinguish, abolisha) to inflict mortal death
to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell/* (im a bit confused by the concordanance, it says its a metaphor for eternal misery in hell, BUT the rest of the meanings mean to destroy or perish) */}// end killdestroy (G622){1) to destroya) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render uselessc) to killd) to declare that one must be put to deathe) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hellf) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed2) to destroya) to lose}// end destroy/* Confused here. Does this mean that God literally will destroy the soul (G5590) or is it a metaphor for hell and eternal torment? */Relelation 20:14-15And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death./* Notice how it says have their part? Does that mean after they serve some sentence they will cease to exist? So my point is, do these souls get destroyed? Or do these people burn forever? Am i taking the word destroyed in the wrong context? insight here? */
Vindicated, The term ttranslated HELL is some Bibles is actually a corruption of the Greek word HADES. To understand what Hades is, we must compare it with what the Bible says, At Ps 16:10 and Acts 2:27,31. At Ps we have a prophecy about the death of the Messiah,or Christ Jesus. AT Acts 2:27,31 we have Peter telling about the actual death of Jesus. Notice that Jesus was in HELL or HADES for parts of three days. If Hell or Hades were a place of torment or torture for sins committed, Jesus would surely NOT have gone into Hades. The Greek word translated Hell and the Hebrew word Sheol mean the common grave of mankind. In the grave they are dead, Ecc 9:5,6,10, Ps 146:3,4. Jesus told about a great resurrection of all the people who are in the Memorial Tombs, Hades, John 5:28,29. So, those in Hades will be brought back to life. Jesus also warned people about another place, Matt 5:22,29,30, Mark 9:43-48. Since all were going into Hades this was a warning about a worse place. As described by Matthew and Mark, this word Gehenna is the same place as The Lake of Fire, The Second Death, a fire that cannot be put out. No one is resurrected from The Lake of Fire, but billions will be resurrected from HELL, HADES, Acts 24:15.
Is punishment of the soul in Hell eternal?Mattew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.kill (G615){1) to kill in any way whatevera) to destroy, to allow to perish2) metaph. to extinguish, abolisha) to inflict mortal death
Vindicated, The term ttranslated HELL is some Bibles is actually a corruption of the Greek word HADES. To understand what Hades is, we must compare it with what the Bible says, At Ps 16:10 and Acts 2:27,31. At Ps we have a prophecy about the death of the Messiah,or Christ Jesus. AT Acts 2:27,31 we have Peter telling about the actual death of Jesus. Notice that Jesus was in HELL or HADES for parts of three days. If Hell or Hades were a place of torment or torture for sins committed, Jesus would surely NOT have gone into Hades. The Greek word translated Hell and the Hebrew word Sheol mean the common grave of mankind. In the grave they are dead, Ecc 9:5,6,10, Ps 146:3,4. Jesus told about a great resurrection of all the people who are in the Memorial Tombs, Hades, John 5:28,29. So, those in Hades will be brought back to life. Jesus also warned people about another place, Matt 5:22,29,30, Mark 9:43-48. Since all were going into Hades this was a warning about a worse place. As described by Matthew and Mark, this word Gehenna is the same place as The Lake of Fire, The Second Death, a fire that cannot be put out. No one is resurrected from The Lake of Fire, but billions will be resurrected from HELL, HADES, Acts 24:15.
(RaddSpencer;50556)
What can I say, I think the English translations are correct --- and the convey the information correctly
I'm sorry, RaddSpencer, but I have to disagree with you on this... one has to look at the original text in order to understand what Paul, Peter, or John really said... I'll use Revelation 3:10 and 2 Peter 2:9 as an example to make it a little easier (yes, I know this si a bit off topic, but it has to do with to how we look at "forever and ever", so please bear with me):in English, Revelation 3:10 says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV)in English, 2 Peter 2:9 says "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (KJV)now, if we do read this without any study whatsoever, then yes, one can come to beleive "that there indeed is a pre-tribulation rapture...okay, now here is the same two passages in it's original Greek text:Revelation 3:10οτι ετηρησας τον λογον της υπομονης μου καγω σε τηρησω εκ της ωρας του πειρασμου της μελλουσης ερχεσθαι επι της οικουμενης ολης πειρασαι τους κατοικουντας επι της γης2 Peter 2:9οιδεν κυριος ευσεβεις εκ πειρασμου ρυεσθαι αδικους δε εις ημεραν κρισεως κολαζομενους τηρεινthe thing we have to look at in these two verses is the term "εκ"... this is found in both of these verses... the term "εκ" is actually a Greek preposition...governs only one case (the Genitive), and denotes motion from the interior. See under apo" (Number iv, above, and diagram at right). It is used of time, place, and origin. It means out from, as distinguished from "apo" (Number iv, above), which means off, or away from. "Ek" marks the more immediate origin, while "apo" marks the more remote origin; of expressing the intermediate meanings.
so as we see here, Revelation 3:10 and 2 Peter 2:9 are talking about God delivering one out of temptation by bringing one through it... that preposition explains it clearly.so looking at the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew writings is very important when it comes to studying the Word of God... it keeps us from being led astray by man made doctrines
What can I say, I think the English translations are correct --- and the convey the information correctly
I'm sorry, RaddSpencer, but I have to disagree with you on this... one has to look at the original text in order to understand what Paul, Peter, or John really said... I'll use Revelation 3:10 and 2 Peter 2:9 as an example to make it a little easier (yes, I know this si a bit off topic, but it has to do with to how we look at "forever and ever", so please bear with me):in English, Revelation 3:10 says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV)in English, 2 Peter 2:9 says "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (KJV)now, if we do read this without any study whatsoever, then yes, one can come to beleive "that there indeed is a pre-tribulation rapture...okay, now here is the same two passages in it's original Greek text:Revelation 3:10οτι ετηρησας τον λογον της υπομονης μου καγω σε τηρησω εκ της ωρας του πειρασμου της μελλουσης ερχεσθαι επι της οικουμενης ολης πειρασαι τους κατοικουντας επι της γης2 Peter 2:9οιδεν κυριος ευσεβεις εκ πειρασμου ρυεσθαι αδικους δε εις ημεραν κρισεως κολαζομενους τηρεινthe thing we have to look at in these two verses is the term "εκ"... this is found in both of these verses... the term "εκ" is actually a Greek preposition...governs only one case (the Genitive), and denotes motion from the interior. See under apo" (Number iv, above, and diagram at right). It is used of time, place, and origin. It means out from, as distinguished from "apo" (Number iv, above), which means off, or away from. "Ek" marks the more immediate origin, while "apo" marks the more remote origin; of expressing the intermediate meanings.
so as we see here, Revelation 3:10 and 2 Peter 2:9 are talking about God delivering one out of temptation by bringing one through it... that preposition explains it clearly.so looking at the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew writings is very important when it comes to studying the Word of God... it keeps us from being led astray by man made doctrines
am still waitng for a reasonable explanation of how the same greek word used in context in the same sentence MUST mean "age" in one case but HAS to mean (agreed by all here) eternal or ever lasting in the other. Especially when the writer obviously presented these concepts as parallel. Remove the "eternal" or "everlasting" from one concept and you alter/remove/revise what the writer obviously intended - a parallel contrast. Age and eternal are not parallels BTW.My guess would be that it is not a logical response but an emotional one; one that insists God cannot allow eternal punishment, therefore the same word MUST have two meanings end of subject. So my emotions tell me I must be right and therefore I am free to use that in understanding these verses.I can see how changing the meaning of a word used twice in the same text (and with parallel reference to each other) just to sooth my emotions couldt be comforting/appealing to me. Especially if my understanding of the alternative view of God on this does not sit well with me emotionally.But my logical side would still ask how could I possibly ignore/destroy the parallel contrast being presented by the writer here simply to sooth/appeal to my emotions. Got to go with the Radd side here and I think many presented it well, with supporting scripture too! Good on ya all. And nice to see it civil.
(waquinas;55357)
am still waitng for a reasonable explanation of how the same greek word used in context in the same sentence MUST mean "age" in one case but HAS to mean (agreed by all here) eternal or ever lasting in the other. Especially when the writer obviously presented these concepts as parallel. Remove the "eternal" or "everlasting" from one concept and you alter/remove/revise what the writer obviously intended - a parallel contrast. Age and eternal are not parallels BTW.My guess would be that it is not a logical response but an emotional one; one that insists God cannot allow eternal punishment, therefore the same word MUST have two meanings end of subject. So my emotions tell me I must be right and therefore I am free to use that in understanding these verses.I can see how changing the meaning of a word used twice in the same text (and with parallel reference to each other) just to sooth my emotions couldt be comforting/appealing to me. Especially if my understanding of the alternative view of God on this does not sit well with me emotionally.But my logical side would still ask how could I possibly ignore/destroy the parallel contrast being presented by the writer here simply to sooth/appeal to my emotions. Got to go with the Radd side here and I think many presented it well, with supporting scripture too! Good on ya all. And nice to see it civil.
Well to be truthful, our emotions may lead us that to believe whatever it shows, but then I don't trust it cause emotions are just as wrong as by actions."If one is burning in Hell forever" How can he die for the second time? Does not our flesh cease to exist if we die the first death?How about this a log and a fire? We see that the log gets burned by fire. Does a log gets burned forever? or does the fire cease to exist overtime?
am still waitng for a reasonable explanation of how the same greek word used in context in the same sentence MUST mean "age" in one case but HAS to mean (agreed by all here) eternal or ever lasting in the other. Especially when the writer obviously presented these concepts as parallel. Remove the "eternal" or "everlasting" from one concept and you alter/remove/revise what the writer obviously intended - a parallel contrast. Age and eternal are not parallels BTW.My guess would be that it is not a logical response but an emotional one; one that insists God cannot allow eternal punishment, therefore the same word MUST have two meanings end of subject. So my emotions tell me I must be right and therefore I am free to use that in understanding these verses.I can see how changing the meaning of a word used twice in the same text (and with parallel reference to each other) just to sooth my emotions couldt be comforting/appealing to me. Especially if my understanding of the alternative view of God on this does not sit well with me emotionally.But my logical side would still ask how could I possibly ignore/destroy the parallel contrast being presented by the writer here simply to sooth/appeal to my emotions. Got to go with the Radd side here and I think many presented it well, with supporting scripture too! Good on ya all. And nice to see it civil.
Well to be truthful, our emotions may lead us that to believe whatever it shows, but then I don't trust it cause emotions are just as wrong as by actions."If one is burning in Hell forever" How can he die for the second time? Does not our flesh cease to exist if we die the first death?How about this a log and a fire? We see that the log gets burned by fire. Does a log gets burned forever? or does the fire cease to exist overtime?
Jag,you did not explain the problem of the contrasting parallel and altering my understanding such that the writers parallel is no longer valid.But I will answer your questions.How can someone die a second time? I suppose the same way people could be said to be born a second time. If death for some ultimately results in a transformation to a glorified being, then they are no longer what they were before, they have been transformed. I see nothing wrong with explaining a second death of those in an eternal fire in terms of a transformation to the opposite of those going the other way, which would be something no longer recognizable as human. If those in eternal fire are the opposite of what we could only describe as being "fully" human-those in Heaven, then seeing them as transformed by that "second death" into something else does not violate our definition of death. Just like the ashes of the log on the fire represent what is left of a tree can be seen as a transformation rather than an annihilation. Something remains, the tree was transformed to gas and carbons, it is certainly no longer a tree or anything resembling a tree but something does remain. Does our flesh cease to exist after our death?Of course, but we do not cease, we are not annihilated in that death. Why should we claim the second death requires annihilation while admitting the first death obviously does not? Obviously death does not HAVE TO mean annihilation in either of our views. We should also distinguish what the Bible clearly states is a corruptible body with the bodies that will be resurrected in the end. (most with our view assume everyone gets a new body)How about this a log and a fire? We see that the log gets burned by fire. Does a log gets burned forever? or does the fire cease to exist overtime? The analogy is not perfect. Lets start by saying no fire on earth in my experience is eternal, so no the fire does not burn the log forever. Neither is a tree seen as something immortal, as all humans are said to be. But even in this caseThe Bible clearly says this is an eternal fire, that never goes out. God does not create things with out purpose. If we believe He can make an eternal fire explicitly for the fate of unrepentant sinners, then there must be a reason for it burning eternally. Could God annihilate us all? Absolutely. However if it was created for their fate as an everlasting fire and they are immortal, then I cannot see the point of their being annihilated there.
well, tnhose two mean the same thing according to the Greek texts: 1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2. without beginning 3. without end, never to cease, everlasting it's that "forever and ever" term we have to look at more. just for the record, that term also has 3 different meanings: 1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2. the worlds, universe 3. period of time, age now from looking at this, I can definitely see what Kriss is saying, because just the mention of time and age, and how there will be 3 different earth ages... also, if God said there would no longer be sin in the new heaven and new earth, that wouldn't be possible if Satan were to still exist... in order for there to be no sin, it has to be destroyed, otherwise God said a lie, but we know that He is incapable of lying
(Super Kal;55363)
well, tnhose two mean the same thing according to the Greek texts: 1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2. without beginning 3. without end, never to cease, everlasting it's that "forever and ever" term we have to look at more. just for the record, that term also has 3 different meanings: 1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2. the worlds, universe 3. period of time, age now from looking at this, I can definitely see what Kriss is saying, because just the mention of time and age, and how there will be 3 different earth ages... also, if God said there would no longer be sin in the new heaven and new earth, that wouldn't be possible if Satan were to still exist... in order for there to be no sin, it has to be destroyed, otherwise God said a lie, but we know that He is incapable of lying
Yea, it is impossible for Death (Satan) to enter the Final Earth Age. (Third Earth Age) God said that a soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) Satan is judged to die already. (Ezekiel 28:18) After all, did not Christ say that Heaven and Earth shall pass away? (Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33) And God said that He shall create the "new Heaven and new Earth" and the former shall not be remembered. (Isaiah 65:17)As you can see, the second death has to be existed (Revelation 20:14) before the Final Earth Age to come.(waquinas;55362)
Jag,you did not explain the problem of the contrasting parallel and altering my understanding such that the writers parallel is no longer valid.But I will answer your questions.How can someone die a second time? I suppose the same way people could be said to be born a second time. If death for some ultimately results in a transformation to a glorified being, then they are no longer what they were before, they have been transformed. I see nothing wrong with explaining a second death of those in an eternal fire in terms of a transformation to the opposite of those going the other way, which would be something no longer recognizable as human. If those in eternal fire are the opposite of what we could only describe as being "fully" human-those in Heaven, then seeing them as transformed by that "second death" into something else does not violate our definition of death. Just like the ashes of the log on the fire represent what is left of a tree can be seen as a transformation rather than an annihilation. Something remains, the tree was transformed to gas and carbons, it is certainly no longer a tree or anything resembling a tree but something does remain. Does our flesh cease to exist after our death?Of course, but we do not cease, we are not annihilated in that death. Why should we claim the second death requires annihilation while admitting the first death obviously does not? Obviously death does not HAVE TO mean annihilation in either of our views. We should also distinguish what the Bible clearly states is a corruptible body with the bodies that will be resurrected in the end. (most with our view assume everyone gets a new body)How about this a log and a fire? We see that the log gets burned by fire. Does a log gets burned forever? or does the fire cease to exist overtime? The analogy is not perfect. Lets start by saying no fire on earth in my experience is eternal, so no the fire does not burn the log forever. Neither is a tree seen as something immortal, as all humans are said to be. But even in this caseThe Bible clearly says this is an eternal fire, that never goes out. God does not create things with out purpose. If we believe He can make an eternal fire explicitly for the fate of unrepentant sinners, then there must be a reason for it burning eternally. Could God annihilate us all? Absolutely. However if it was created for their fate as an everlasting fire and they are immortal, then I cannot see the point of their being annihilated there.
It is true, that we do not get annihilated after our first death. Besides our flesh body ain't our original body anyway. But souls who follow Satan will likely die the second death. Without the soul, our body can't move or operate.The second Birth is mentioned in John 3:5-6. What is born of the Spirit? It is referred to John 4:24. Likewise the second death is clearly referred in number of places. (Psalm 37:20, Psalm 68:2, John 3:16, Revelation 20:14 etc)
well, tnhose two mean the same thing according to the Greek texts: 1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2. without beginning 3. without end, never to cease, everlasting it's that "forever and ever" term we have to look at more. just for the record, that term also has 3 different meanings: 1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2. the worlds, universe 3. period of time, age now from looking at this, I can definitely see what Kriss is saying, because just the mention of time and age, and how there will be 3 different earth ages... also, if God said there would no longer be sin in the new heaven and new earth, that wouldn't be possible if Satan were to still exist... in order for there to be no sin, it has to be destroyed, otherwise God said a lie, but we know that He is incapable of lying
Yea, it is impossible for Death (Satan) to enter the Final Earth Age. (Third Earth Age) God said that a soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) Satan is judged to die already. (Ezekiel 28:18) After all, did not Christ say that Heaven and Earth shall pass away? (Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33) And God said that He shall create the "new Heaven and new Earth" and the former shall not be remembered. (Isaiah 65:17)As you can see, the second death has to be existed (Revelation 20:14) before the Final Earth Age to come.(waquinas;55362)
Jag,you did not explain the problem of the contrasting parallel and altering my understanding such that the writers parallel is no longer valid.But I will answer your questions.How can someone die a second time? I suppose the same way people could be said to be born a second time. If death for some ultimately results in a transformation to a glorified being, then they are no longer what they were before, they have been transformed. I see nothing wrong with explaining a second death of those in an eternal fire in terms of a transformation to the opposite of those going the other way, which would be something no longer recognizable as human. If those in eternal fire are the opposite of what we could only describe as being "fully" human-those in Heaven, then seeing them as transformed by that "second death" into something else does not violate our definition of death. Just like the ashes of the log on the fire represent what is left of a tree can be seen as a transformation rather than an annihilation. Something remains, the tree was transformed to gas and carbons, it is certainly no longer a tree or anything resembling a tree but something does remain. Does our flesh cease to exist after our death?Of course, but we do not cease, we are not annihilated in that death. Why should we claim the second death requires annihilation while admitting the first death obviously does not? Obviously death does not HAVE TO mean annihilation in either of our views. We should also distinguish what the Bible clearly states is a corruptible body with the bodies that will be resurrected in the end. (most with our view assume everyone gets a new body)How about this a log and a fire? We see that the log gets burned by fire. Does a log gets burned forever? or does the fire cease to exist overtime? The analogy is not perfect. Lets start by saying no fire on earth in my experience is eternal, so no the fire does not burn the log forever. Neither is a tree seen as something immortal, as all humans are said to be. But even in this caseThe Bible clearly says this is an eternal fire, that never goes out. God does not create things with out purpose. If we believe He can make an eternal fire explicitly for the fate of unrepentant sinners, then there must be a reason for it burning eternally. Could God annihilate us all? Absolutely. However if it was created for their fate as an everlasting fire and they are immortal, then I cannot see the point of their being annihilated there.
It is true, that we do not get annihilated after our first death. Besides our flesh body ain't our original body anyway. But souls who follow Satan will likely die the second death. Without the soul, our body can't move or operate.The second Birth is mentioned in John 3:5-6. What is born of the Spirit? It is referred to John 4:24. Likewise the second death is clearly referred in number of places. (Psalm 37:20, Psalm 68:2, John 3:16, Revelation 20:14 etc)
Jag,You still have not addressed the problem of the parallel.And I did not deny a second death or birth, or that the Bible mentions both or that IN THIS LIFE that which can "kill" the soul should be feared more than that which can kill the body. All of that is clearly stated.I should point out that fearing that which can "kill" the soul IN THIS LIFE obviously does not mean the soul dies in this life, it is speaking of the potential eternal consequences of actions in this life. Again just as death of the body does not mean my annihilation, I do not believe a second death can only mean annihilation. As some one smart once said, there are worse things than death. There are also far worse things than annihilation that would equally sastisfy a label of "death".
(waquinas;55367)
Jag,You still have not addressed the problem of the parallel.And I did not deny a second death or birth, or that the Bible mentions both or that IN THIS LIFE that which can "kill" the soul should be feared more than that which can kill the body. All of that is clearly stated.I should point out that fearing that which can "kill" the soul IN THIS LIFE obviously does not mean the soul dies in this life, it is speaking of the potential eternal consequences of actions in this life. Again just as death of the body does not mean my annihilation, I do not believe a second death can only mean annihilation. As some one smart once said, there are worse things than death. There are also far worse things than annihilation that would equally sastisfy a label of "death".
What do you mean by "You still have not addressed the problem of the parallel."? For I only know His Word... it's true that it is impossible for a soul to die in this life, for only the flesh body can die. (Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 9:27) And the flesh body can not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. (I Corinthians 15:50)The soul won't die until the Melinneum Reign is over, like 1,000 years later after every single flesh body (human body) cease to exist.The worser thing of death, is the second death. (Cease to exist)
Jag,You still have not addressed the problem of the parallel.And I did not deny a second death or birth, or that the Bible mentions both or that IN THIS LIFE that which can "kill" the soul should be feared more than that which can kill the body. All of that is clearly stated.I should point out that fearing that which can "kill" the soul IN THIS LIFE obviously does not mean the soul dies in this life, it is speaking of the potential eternal consequences of actions in this life. Again just as death of the body does not mean my annihilation, I do not believe a second death can only mean annihilation. As some one smart once said, there are worse things than death. There are also far worse things than annihilation that would equally sastisfy a label of "death".
What do you mean by "You still have not addressed the problem of the parallel."? For I only know His Word... it's true that it is impossible for a soul to die in this life, for only the flesh body can die. (Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 9:27) And the flesh body can not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. (I Corinthians 15:50)The soul won't die until the Melinneum Reign is over, like 1,000 years later after every single flesh body (human body) cease to exist.The worser thing of death, is the second death. (Cease to exist)
Sorry I lost you Jag,We were speaking of Matthew chapter 25 where the writer specifically contrasts in PARALLEL the fate of the some over others. With your understanding of those verses, you would need to explain how the writer of Matthew 25 could make a parallel using the same Greek word and meant for us to understand one as a limited age and the other eternity. AGE does not PARALLEL ETERNITY, so trying to explain those verses with that understanding requires one to claim either the parallel is not being made or deny there is any parallel at all. The presumption of all the arguments for the limited fire view so far is that it must be this way simply because the greek word CAN have alternate meanings. There is no attempt to address why the writer would make a parallel of two fates using the same word for the time span if the span were not considered or understood to be relatively equal. Age and eternity are by no means understood as relatively equal, even if one suggests (as some did) that age could be a very long time.
("waquinas")
We were speaking of Matthew chapter 25 where the writer specifically contrasts in PARALLEL the fate of the some over others. With your understanding of those verses, you would need to explain how the writer of Matthew 25 could make a parallel using the same Greek word and meant for us to understand one as a limited age and the other eternity. AGE does not PARALLEL ETERNITY, so trying to explain those verses with that understanding requires one to claim either the parallel is not being made or deny there is any parallel at all. The presumption of all the arguments for the limited fire view so far is that it must be this way simply because the greek word CAN have alternate meanings. There is no attempt to address why the writer would make a parallel of two fates using the same word for the time span if the span were not considered or understood to be relatively equal. Age and eternity are by no means understood as relatively equal, even if one suggests (as some did) that age could be a very long time.
Why do you assume that aionios refers to a period of time in this verse? Perhaps the life and the punishment or aeonian in the sense that both originate in the eternal God?
We were speaking of Matthew chapter 25 where the writer specifically contrasts in PARALLEL the fate of the some over others. With your understanding of those verses, you would need to explain how the writer of Matthew 25 could make a parallel using the same Greek word and meant for us to understand one as a limited age and the other eternity. AGE does not PARALLEL ETERNITY, so trying to explain those verses with that understanding requires one to claim either the parallel is not being made or deny there is any parallel at all. The presumption of all the arguments for the limited fire view so far is that it must be this way simply because the greek word CAN have alternate meanings. There is no attempt to address why the writer would make a parallel of two fates using the same word for the time span if the span were not considered or understood to be relatively equal. Age and eternity are by no means understood as relatively equal, even if one suggests (as some did) that age could be a very long time.
Why do you assume that aionios refers to a period of time in this verse? Perhaps the life and the punishment or aeonian in the sense that both originate in the eternal God?
(Veronica Moser;55409)
Why do you assume that aionios refers to a period of time in this verse? Perhaps the life and the punishment or aeonian in the sense that both originate in the eternal God?
I do not need to assume, this has been the accepted view of those verses for thousands of years. The Greek word is used over 70 times in the Bible I think, and always as a reference to time. I also think there are much clearer and precise ways to express the idea that the justice administered here comes from God. Besides Matt 25 is speaking of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and in the final verses what the scene will be like at the final Judgment. In that context it goes without saying Who the Judge is and from where or whom the judgment comes. It is not ambigous or confusing in this regard. Of course the reward and punishment come from God, the reader of this text can see that God is the King and the justice comes from God. Mr Cripps have us believe we should renderAnd these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.to this:And these shall go away into God's punishment: but the righteous into God's life.Sorry, no I cannot imagine seeing this verse as a way of labeling/pointing out the source of Divine Justice. And before we accept his proposition, Mr Cripps would need to explain why we should take his word that in Mt 25.46 we should see aionios as a label for Divine Justice while using it every where else in the Bible as a reference to time.
Why do you assume that aionios refers to a period of time in this verse? Perhaps the life and the punishment or aeonian in the sense that both originate in the eternal God?
I do not need to assume, this has been the accepted view of those verses for thousands of years. The Greek word is used over 70 times in the Bible I think, and always as a reference to time. I also think there are much clearer and precise ways to express the idea that the justice administered here comes from God. Besides Matt 25 is speaking of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and in the final verses what the scene will be like at the final Judgment. In that context it goes without saying Who the Judge is and from where or whom the judgment comes. It is not ambigous or confusing in this regard. Of course the reward and punishment come from God, the reader of this text can see that God is the King and the justice comes from God. Mr Cripps have us believe we should renderAnd these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.to this:And these shall go away into God's punishment: but the righteous into God's life.Sorry, no I cannot imagine seeing this verse as a way of labeling/pointing out the source of Divine Justice. And before we accept his proposition, Mr Cripps would need to explain why we should take his word that in Mt 25.46 we should see aionios as a label for Divine Justice while using it every where else in the Bible as a reference to time.
("waquinas")
I do not need to assume, this has been the accepted view of those verses for thousands of years.
Accepted by who? The majority?
The Greek word is used over 70 times in the Bible I think, and always as a reference to time.
I humbly disagree. Eternity, according to the Bible, is without beginning nor end, and thus transcends time (Revelation 1:8 , 22:13). As mentioned before, the Greek word translated “eternal” in many places in the Bible is aionios. From its first known appearance in Greek literature (see the works of Plato, e.g. Timaeus 37d), aionios was used of that which transcends the physical world of time. This sense is retained in the New Testament, as is evident considering that this word is routinely used in the New Testament contexts in which its juxtaposition to things perishable and material is manifest. "For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1 Here aionios is used of the indissoluble things of Heaven in contrast to the things of the mundane world of corruption. "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal." -2 Corinthians 4:18 In this verse, aionios describes the eternal truths which human eyes and ears have not seen nor heard, for these truths belong to the unseen realm of God as opposed to the visible world of change.. "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 Aionios here refers to that Heavenly life which does not fade nor falter; It is the very life of Christ in contradistinction to the perishable life that humanity has in Adam.
I also think there are much clearer and precise ways to express the idea that the justice administered here comes from God.
Please explain.
Besides Matt 25 is speaking of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and in the final verses what the scene will be like at the final Judgment. In that context it goes without saying Who the Judge is and from where or whom the judgment comes. It is not ambigous or confusing in this regard. Of course the reward and punishment come from God, the reader of this text can see that God is the King and the justice comes from God.
Yet this logic works against you, too. It goes without saying that God is eternal, yet the phrase "aeonian Spirit" appears in the Bible.
Mr Cripps have us believe we should renderAnd these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.to this:And these shall go away into God's punishment: but the righteous into God's life.
Basically, yes.
Sorry, no I cannot imagine seeing this verse as a way of labeling/pointing out the source of Divine Justice.
Why not?
And before we accept his proposition, Mr Cripps would need to explain why we should take his word that in Mt 25.46 we should see aionios as a label for Divine Justice while using it every where else in the Bible as a reference to time.
See above.
I do not need to assume, this has been the accepted view of those verses for thousands of years.
Accepted by who? The majority?
The Greek word is used over 70 times in the Bible I think, and always as a reference to time.
I humbly disagree. Eternity, according to the Bible, is without beginning nor end, and thus transcends time (Revelation 1:8 , 22:13). As mentioned before, the Greek word translated “eternal” in many places in the Bible is aionios. From its first known appearance in Greek literature (see the works of Plato, e.g. Timaeus 37d), aionios was used of that which transcends the physical world of time. This sense is retained in the New Testament, as is evident considering that this word is routinely used in the New Testament contexts in which its juxtaposition to things perishable and material is manifest. "For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." - 2 Corinthians 5:1 Here aionios is used of the indissoluble things of Heaven in contrast to the things of the mundane world of corruption. "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal." -2 Corinthians 4:18 In this verse, aionios describes the eternal truths which human eyes and ears have not seen nor heard, for these truths belong to the unseen realm of God as opposed to the visible world of change.. "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 Aionios here refers to that Heavenly life which does not fade nor falter; It is the very life of Christ in contradistinction to the perishable life that humanity has in Adam.
I also think there are much clearer and precise ways to express the idea that the justice administered here comes from God.
Please explain.
Besides Matt 25 is speaking of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like and in the final verses what the scene will be like at the final Judgment. In that context it goes without saying Who the Judge is and from where or whom the judgment comes. It is not ambigous or confusing in this regard. Of course the reward and punishment come from God, the reader of this text can see that God is the King and the justice comes from God.
Yet this logic works against you, too. It goes without saying that God is eternal, yet the phrase "aeonian Spirit" appears in the Bible.
Mr Cripps have us believe we should renderAnd these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.to this:And these shall go away into God's punishment: but the righteous into God's life.
Basically, yes.
Sorry, no I cannot imagine seeing this verse as a way of labeling/pointing out the source of Divine Justice.
Why not?
And before we accept his proposition, Mr Cripps would need to explain why we should take his word that in Mt 25.46 we should see aionios as a label for Divine Justice while using it every where else in the Bible as a reference to time.
See above.
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