Is Spiritual Israel The Woman In Revelation 12?

[Keraz]

It's my understanding that the "woman" is Jesus's church here on earth, but I won't swear my soul on it.

That is the correct understanding, now.
Originally, the 'woman' was the 12 tribes of Israel, but out of them came Jesus, so it is now only His faithful believers, who qualify, as in; Revelation 12:6

 

[ewq1938]

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Many claim Jesus will literally rule RIGHT NOW In A "Millennium" this being false Amill in deception. Anyone can see we cannot be in the Millennium now nor have been.

 

[Truth7t7]

Many claim Jesus will literally rule RIGHT NOW In A "Millennium" this being false Amill in deception. Anyone can see we cannot be in the Millennium now nor have been.

Those seen in Revelation 20:1-6 are in the Lord's spiritual realm (The Souls) (The Dead)

Those seen are in the (One Day Is A Thousand Years) No Literal Time

There won't be a future millennial kingdom as you have been shown several times to your denial

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

There won't be a future millennial kingdom as you have been shown several times to your denial

And Rev 20 proves you wrong.

 

[Truth7t7]

And Rev 20 proves you wrong.

Revelation 20:1-6 proves you wrong, no kingdom or moral humans on this earth are seen "Fact"

 

[jeffweeder]

It's my understanding that the "woman" is Jesus's church here on earth, but I won't swear my soul on it.

Rev 12
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went off to wage war on the rest of her children (seed), those who keep and obey the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [holding firmly to it and bearing witness to Him].


The woman is the faithful Israel of old and the Gentiles who embrace the testimony of Jesus also.

The only appropriate title to give to this phenomenon is Spiritual Israel.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:1-6 proves you wrong, no kingdom or moral humans on this earth are seen "Fact"

No, all of Rev 20 proves you wrong, showing a future Millennium full of mortal humans. Sure are tons of mortals on this Earth immediately after the Mill ends too.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is much debate about this, with the Church as Spiritual Israel as much of a contender as some believe an alternative would be OT Israel in this description. But why can't it simply be a representation of Spiritual Israel, or the Church itself consisting of saved Jews and Gentiles both, Symbolically thru Mary, but not just Mary, but Symbolically thru the Church / Spiritual Israel as well?

I'll try here a different take on it--again, just a thought and nothing dogmatic. I think the Woman with 12 stars may be the Early Church, the beginnings of Christianity, which started in Israel. She is the Mother, in a sense, of the entire international Church, though she began as the nation Israel. The 12 stars identifies her as Israel, having the 12 apostles, or perhaps even the 12 tribes.

Her child was Christ and as such, this "Woman" began in the OT, before Christ was born. But it became the glorious Church after Christ came and ascended into his glory. Her "other children" are Christians. And the Woman, going into the wilderness, are Christians who, like Israel, are seeking to escape world powers that harass them. Or, it could be Israel, who is seeking escape from the deluge being spewed out against them by Satan.

It's a very difficult passage for me. And I'm sure it's highly symbolic. I'm certainly missing a variable in the equation, which could make it more certain for me!

 

[Truth7t7]

No, all of Rev 20 proves you wrong, showing a future Millennium full of mortal humans. Sure are tons of mortals on this Earth immediately after the Mill ends too.

Wake up, your having a bad dream again

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 12
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went off to wage war on the rest of her children (seed), those who keep and obey the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [holding firmly to it and bearing witness to Him].


The woman is the faithful Israel of old and the Gentiles who embrace the testimony of Jesus also.

The only appropriate title to give to this phenomenon is Spiritual Israel.

The woman in Revelation 12:6 represents the "Remnant Church" seen in Roman's chapter 11, they will be in Israel's wilderness during the 1260 day tribulation, as Jerusalem is in desolation

You will closely note Micah 7:13-18 is a detailed description of Revelation 12:6, the Remnant will be in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, and Gilead, they will be fed "Manna" from heaven as in the days of coming out of Egypt, the world will watch in "Fear" of the Lord's power

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:13-18KJV
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

 

[Illuminator]

I'll try here a different take on it--again, just a thought and nothing dogmatic. I think the Woman with 12 stars may be the Early Church, the beginnings of Christianity, which started in Israel. She is the Mother, in a sense, of the entire international Church, though she began as the nation Israel. The 12 stars identifies her as Israel, having the 12 apostles, or perhaps even the 12 tribes.

Her child was Christ and as such, this "Woman" began in the OT, before Christ was born. But it became the glorious Church after Christ came and ascended into his glory. Her "other children" are Christians. And the Woman, going into the wilderness, are Christians who, like Israel, are seeking to escape world powers that harass them. Or, it could be Israel, who is seeking escape from the deluge being spewed out against them by Satan.

It's a very difficult passage for me. And I'm sure it's highly symbolic. I'm certainly missing a variable in the equation, which could make it more certain for me!

You make some good points.
[For literary critics] the concept of polyvalence is different. Literary critics use polyvalence to refer to the way stories are understood or interpreted by people who have had different experiences.

You may or may not be interested in the more technical aspects of this distinction. In short, grammarians would say a word is polysemous when authors use the same word with different intended meanings. So one author intends her readers to think of an animal when she uses the word “duck.” Another author uses the word and intends his readers to picture someone stooping down to avoid being hit. But literary critics would say a story is polyvalent because readers interpret or understand it differently. And whatever an author might have intended, readers will inevitably understand a story in different ways.

Revelation 12:1 is a polyvalent verse. It has 3 meanings and I accept all three. It cannot be isolated from Rev. 11:19. There were no chapter and verse numbers in the Bible until the 12th century, and not published until the 15th century. This is how it would look for over a millennium: (KJV)

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Looking at the verses with this perspective, the ark of his testament and a woman clothed with the sun is one and the same, a combination of OT and NT archetypes, the latter a fulfilling quantum leap from the former; there is a lot of dots to connect along the way.
The woman is Mary
The woman is the Church
The woman is Israel.

By overemphasizing one you risk diminishing the other two. "clothed with the sun" means the light is not her own, for she is a creature. It is the light of Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You make some good points.
[For literary critics] the concept of polyvalence is different. Literary critics use polyvalence to refer to the way stories are understood or interpreted by people who have had different experiences.

You may or may not be interested in the more technical aspects of this distinction. In short, grammarians would say a word is polysemous when authors use the same word with different intended meanings. So one author intends her readers to think of an animal when she uses the word “duck.” Another author uses the word and intends his readers to picture someone stooping down to avoid being hit. But literary critics would say a story is polyvalent because readers interpret or understand it differently. And whatever an author might have intended, readers will inevitably understand a story in different ways.

Revelation 12:1 is a polyvalent verse. It has 3 meanings and I accept all three. It cannot be isolated from Rev. 11:19. There were no chapter and verse numbers in the Bible until the 12th century, and not published until the 15th century. This is how it would look for over a millennium: (KJV)

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Looking at the verses with this perspective, the ark of his testament and a woman clothed with the sun is one and the same, a combination of OT and NT archetypes, the latter a fulfilling quantum leap from the former; there is a lot of dots to connect along the way.
The woman is Mary
The woman is the Church
The woman is Israel.

By overemphasizing one you risk diminishing the other two. "clothed with the sun" means the light is not her own, for she is a creature. It is the light of Christ.

I can't believe that the biblical authors, even under inspiration, would state truth, whether plain-spoken or symbolic, that is intended to be understood in several ways. It sounds so much like those who wish to take a middle position between two contrary positions, in order to "make peace" between them. In reality, one has to take a position, and at best can only see *some truth* in each contradictory position.

So what we read, whether with chapter and verse or not, is a single application, in my view. But in saying this it really helps me to focus on the connection between ch. 11 and ch. 12. As you quoted it, it appears that the opening of the temple in heaven, made possible at Christ's death, immediately leads to the birth of the Church, taking place right after Christ's death and resurrection. This seemingly fits ch. 11 and ch. 12 together seamlessly. And that appears to be helpful in interpreting this.

I don't think there can be any question that the Woman is the Church, since 1) she gives birth to the male child, or Christ, and 2) she is viewed as glorious, which can only take place when we believers don the garments of Christ.

Satan is portrayed in almost-cryptic symbolism, perhaps because that's how he is always portrayed biblically, whether as a serpent or a dragon. He is an unwelcome figure on the plane of earth's existence, and likely a trespasser on land originally given to Man. In the same way, the Christian Body is viewed in almost mysterious terms, assuming the attributes of Christ when formerly they were condemned under the system of Law as transgressors.

This results in a cosmic battle, which began after the start of the Church in Israel, and will end with the deliverance of God's people from satanic attacks. A "flood" is often the imagery of an attacking army. So though I may disagree with your very subjective approach to biblical interpretation here I am grateful for your emphasis on the seamless transition from ch. 11 to ch. 12. That appears to be very significant and key to understanding this passage, at least for me!

 

[Keraz]

One certainty is who the 'woman' is not.
She is NOT the citizens of Jewish Israel.

Revelation 12:17 clearly identifies who that Chapter in referring to. = Those who follow Christ and keep His Commandments.

 

[Illuminator]

One certainty is who the 'woman' is not.
She is NOT the citizens of Jewish Israel.

Revelation 12:17 clearly identifies who that Chapter in referring to. = Those who follow Christ and keep His Commandments.

Yes, the children of the Woman, who is Jewish, a personification of Israel, the Daughter of Zion. Those who follow Christ and keep His Commandments, the Church. No mention of any denomination. The ones who follow Christ and keep His Commandments are those who do the will of God, who are His mother and brothers. So logically, the Woman is the mother of all those who hear the Word of God, and keep it. So whether you believe it or not, Mary, who did the will of God perfectly, is your mother in Christ and model of faith. I don't see any way around it.

I can't believe that the biblical authors, even under inspiration, would state truth, whether plain-spoken or symbolic, that is intended to be understood in several ways. It sounds so much like those who wish to take a middle position between two contrary positions, in order to "make peace" between them. In reality, one has to take a position, and at best can only see *some truth* in each contradictory position.

So what we read, whether with chapter and verse or not, is a single application, in my view. But in saying this it really helps me to focus on the connection between ch. 11 and ch. 12. As you quoted it, it appears that the opening of the temple in heaven, made possible at Christ's death, immediately leads to the birth of the Church, taking place right after Christ's death and resurrection. This seemingly fits ch. 11 and ch. 12 together seamlessly. And that appears to be helpful in interpreting this.

I don't think there can be any question that the Woman is the Church, since 1) she gives birth to the male child, or Christ, and 2) she is viewed as glorious, which can only take place when we believers don the garments of Christ.

Satan is portrayed in almost-cryptic symbolism, perhaps because that's how he is always portrayed biblically, whether as a serpent or a dragon. He is an unwelcome figure on the plane of earth's existence, and likely a trespasser on land originally given to Man. In the same way, the Christian Body is viewed in almost mysterious terms, assuming the attributes of Christ when formerly they were condemned under the system of Law as transgressors.

This results in a cosmic battle, which began after the start of the Church in Israel, and will end with the deliverance of God's people from satanic attacks. A "flood" is often the imagery of an attacking army. So though I may disagree with your very subjective approach to biblical interpretation here I am grateful for your emphasis on the seamless transition from ch. 11 to ch. 12. That appears to be very significant and key to understanding this passage, at least for me!

There are only 2 passages in all of Scripture that have a woman and a dragon in the same verse. Genesis 3:15, and Revelation 12:17. Like I said, it's a quantum leap with lots in between.

...after urging the Israelites to repent of their sins, Zechariah also prophesies: “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come and I will dwell in the midst of you, says the Lord” (2:10).

We now fast-forward to Luke 1:28. Luke records the greeting of the angel: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” There are two keys to understanding this text in relation to Mary as the fulfillment of the ancient “daughter of Zion” prophecies.

1. The Greek word for hail is kaire, which can also be translated rejoice. In fact, the New King James Version of the Bible translates it as “rejoice, highly favored one!” Because this “new name”—kecharitomene—is in the feminine, we could also translate it as “Rejoice, favored woman.”

1. The angel does not say, “The Lord shall be with you”; he says, “The Lord is with you.”

Could this hearken back to the “daughter of Zion” prophecies of old? There is really no biblical way around it. The ancient prayer of Moses was definitively answered in and through what was likely to have been about a fifteen-year-old young woman named Mary, and in a way beyond the wildest imaginings of the ancient prophets. Because of her “yes,” after all of those centuries in waiting, God would finally dwell “in the midst of his virgin daughter of Zion.”

Indeed, this verse becomes an excellent example of what Scripture scholars refer to as the polyvalent or multi-layered nature of Scripture. The angel’s greeting signals not only that Mary is “full of grace,” but also that she is the true “Daughter of Zion.”

 

[Keraz]

So logically, the Woman is the mother of all those who hear the Word of God, and keep it. So whether you believe it or not, Mary, who did the will of God perfectly, is your mother in Christ and model of faith. I don't see any way around it.

Sorry, but that idea is illogical and leads to the worship of the wrong entity.
Revelation 12:5 clearly says that the 'woman' gave birth to a man child and He is destined to rule the nations.

 

[Illuminator]

Sorry, but that idea is illogical and leads to the worship of the wrong entity.

Revelation 12:5 clearly says that the 'woman' gave birth to a man child and He is destined to rule the nations.

The earthly physical woman?
The woman as The Church?
The woman as a nation?

Please be clear.

 

[Illuminator]

The Flight into Egypt​

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”

14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”




FLIGHT TO EGYPT
Coloring project for children. Copy and print to hand out at church. Parents will stick them on the fridge with magnets or tape. Burning it as its idolatry is serious child abuse.

​

Here is an advanced photoshop oil on canvas painting of the same theme, FLIGHT FROM THE DRAGON



In our day, there's enough dead babies to fill a stadium. The spirit of Herod is alive and well in the abortion industry.

 

[Illuminator]

Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:

18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted,
Because they are no more.”

Project Rachel - HopeAfterAbortion.org

hopeafterabortion.com

nobody will ask you to join a church.

 

[Illuminator]

19 Now when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child’s life are dead.” 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.

22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee.

Why did the angel appear in a 3 times to Joseph, and not Mary, if she's so special??? Did have something to do with the father as the priest of the household? Perhaps the angel is not up-to-date on womens' rights.

 

[Illuminator]

Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2nd ed., edited by F. L. Cross & E. A. Livingstone, Oxford Univ. Press, 1983, p. 430, “Dulia” – italics added, here and below):

(Latinized form of Greek douleia, ‘service’). The reverence which, according to Orthodox and RC theology, may be paid to the saints, as contrasted with hyperdulia, which may be paid only to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and latria (Gk., latreia), which is reserved for God alone. In classical as contrasted with ecclesiastical usage douleia is a stronger term than latreia.

This is consistent with the Catholic understanding. This dictionary goes on to define latria as follows (p. 803):

As contrasted with dulia, that fullness of Divine worship which may be paid to God alone.

The standard non-Catholic lexical reference Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (eds. Gerard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; abridged edition by Geoffrey Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985) concurs:

The Word Group among the Greeks [doulos and cognates] . . . the group has no religious significance for the Greeks . . . The worshipper is philos rather than doulos, so that it makes no sense to describe service of the gods, or life under the eyes of the gods, as douleia. (p. 183)

Likewise, for latreia:

In Nonbiblical Greek. . . has such connotations as ‘service for reward,’ ‘labor,’ ‘bodily care,’ and ‘service to the gods.’ (p. 503)

Douleia can also be located in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, in volume 1, p. 139, under “Bondage,” and latreia in volume 3, p. 349, under “Service, Serving.”

Douleia is Strong’s word #1397. It appears five times in the New Testament, and is translated “bondage” in the KJV (Rom 8:15,21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15: none referring to God). It is related to the following cognates:

#1398 douleuo “to be a slave” 25 times in NT
#1399 doule “handmaiden” / “female slave” 3 times, including Mary’s description of herself: Lk 1:38,48
#1400 / 1401 doulon / doulos “servant” / “slave” 127 times
#1402 douloo: “make a servant” 8 times

Latreia is Strong’s word #2999. It appears 5 times in the New Testament, and is translated “service” or “divine service” in the KJV — in reference to God (Jn 16:2; Rom 9:4, 12:1; Heb 9:1,6). It is related to cognate latreuo, Strong’s word #3000, usually rendered “serve” or “service.” It appears 21 times in the New Testament.

So, as usual, so-called exclusively “Catholic” words are found to have a completely biblical basis, and to follow the distinction even present in the pre-biblical Greek etymology, since the Latin dulia and latria are directly derived from the Greek.