Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

But you see, to be a JW you must believe as they believe or how can you be one of them, so you believe what they tell you beleieve just like all the other religions.

I agree with them if that's what you're trying to say. They don't force anyone to believe anything if that's what you're trying to say or imply. But listen what your saying to me. You and others are telling me I must listen to you and believe what you believe or tell me to believe. Otherwise I'm not a true Christian like you and others who believe the same. It seems to me you're speaking out against the JW for doing the same thing you're doing. Not that I agree what you're trying to say about the JW.

 

[mjrhealth]

I must listen to you and believe what you believe or tell me to believe.

Just Jesus, but that is your choice... He doesnt force anyone.

 

[ReChoired]

You honestly think I worry about what people think of WTS.

Yes. The evidence is clear. It's why you defend it rather than truth.

 

[ReChoired]

...For all you know, I'm one of the 144,000. ...

I know for a fact, you are not right now, simply based upon the description of the 144,000 in scripture.

The 144,000 stand upon the Sea of Glass, for one, and that is understood here -

Sea of Glass (Powerpoint) (Sabbath, March 30th, 2019)

Most of Christianity doesn't teach or live Revelation 14:6-7,12. If they repent and come out of her, and join with the remnant which keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus and His testimony, then they have opportunity.

Most teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17). They are not found to be in harmony with what the scripture defines as "servants of ... God". They know nothing of the Seal of the Living God (JEHOVAH Elohiym). They are not "virgins" as defined in scripture. They are excluded then.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.​

 

[ReChoired]

If we're asking for God's will to take place on earth as in heaven, ask yourself is it Gods will to empty heaven for even a temporary time? It's always been God's purpose for planet earth to have humans on it.

Already addressed:

After the earth is hit with the 7 last plagues, the wrath of God, and His fierce anger, and the massive earthquake and the tearing away of the first heaven [the atmosphere], and already having the other curses still upon it from the beginning [massive ocean, that vast water desert, from the global flood of Noah; ice poles, ice deserts/wastes, scorched earth, earthy and sandy deserts], this earth will have returned to a chaotic wilderness, filled with darkness, waters, earth and no life [except for Satan and his angels, the dragon and owls [unclean night birds of the air]], for 1,000 years, and after those "many days", then shall the wicked be visited in their prison, and the final resurrection of the wicked take place. It will in effect, have been brought back to its state/condition as seen in Genesis 1:2, during those 1,000 years, and thus the 'earth', is indeed the 'bottomless' 'pit', just as Isaiah (24) stated:

Jeremiah 4:23 - I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24 - I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 - I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26 - I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4:27 - For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jeremiah 4:28 - For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jeremiah 25:15 - For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

Jeremiah 25:16 - And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

Jeremiah 25:17 - Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:

Jeremiah 25:18 - To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

Jeremiah 25:19 - Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people;

Jeremiah 25:20 - And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod,

Jeremiah 25:21 - Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon,

Jeremiah 25:22 - And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,

Jeremiah 25:23 - Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners,

Jeremiah 25:24 - And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,

Jeremiah 25:25 - And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,

Jeremiah 25:26 - And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Jeremiah 25:27 - Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

Jeremiah 25:28 - And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.

Jeremiah 25:29 - For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jeremiah 25:30 - Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

Jeremiah 25:31 - A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 25:32 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

Jeremiah 25:33 - And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jeremiah 25:34 - Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.

Jeremiah 25:35 - And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape.

Jeremiah 25:36 - A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.

Jeremiah 25:37 - And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

Jeremiah 25:38 - He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.

 

[ReChoired]

If we're asking for God's will to take place on earth as in heaven, ask yourself is it Gods will to empty heaven for even a temporary time? It's always been God's purpose for planet earth to have humans on it.

Already addressed:

Zephaniah 1:2 - I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.

Zephaniah 1:3 - I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.

Zephaniah 1:14 - The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zephaniah 1:15 - That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zephaniah 1:16 - A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Zephaniah 1:17 - And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Zephaniah 1:18 - Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Isaiah 2:6 - Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Isaiah 2:7 - Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:

Isaiah 2:8 - Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Isaiah 2:9 - And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

Isaiah 2:10 - Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.

Isaiah 2:11 - The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isaiah 2:12KJB - For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 2:13KJB - And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

Isaiah 2:14KJB - And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

Isaiah 2:15 - And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

Isaiah 2:16 - And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

Isaiah 2:17 - And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isaiah 2:18 - And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

Isaiah 2:19 - And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isaiah 2:20 - In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

Isaiah 2:21 - To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isaiah 2:22 - Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Isaiah 11:4 - But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 24:2 - And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

Isaiah 24:3 - The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

Isaiah 24:4 - The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

Isaiah 24:5 - The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 24:6 - Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 24:17 - Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

Isaiah 24:18 - And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

Isaiah 24:19 - The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Isaiah 24:20 - The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Isaiah 24:21 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Isaiah 24:22 - And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

 

[ReChoired]

If we're asking for God's will to take place on earth as in heaven, ask yourself is it Gods will to empty heaven for even a temporary time? It's always been God's purpose for planet earth to have humans on it.

Already addressed:

Isaiah 34:1 - Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Isaiah 34:2 - For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Isaiah 34:3 - Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 34:4 - And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isaiah 34:5 - For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Isaiah 34:6 - The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Isaiah 34:7 - And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Isaiah 34:8 - For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34:9 - And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Isaiah 34:10 - It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 34:11 - But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

Isaiah 34:12 - They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

Isaiah 34:13 - And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Isaiah 34:14 - The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Isaiah 34:15 - There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

Isaiah 34:16 - Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Isaiah 34:17 - And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

The reign takes place in Heaven. Most people have a misunderstanding of the word "reign" in that context, but scripture defines that "reign" for us.

Look at the passages in Revelation, which speak of "reign", and notice the location, of each:

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].
​

Did you notice the two "reigns"?

[1] limited in time, 1,000 years
[2] infinite in time, 'for ever and ever'
​

It's kinda like an ascension year, and the full reign afterward.

For instance, look at these texts, and ask yourself, do they say anywhere, in their text or its contexts, that the "reign" spoken of in it, it takes place on earth:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

Remember, John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc, speak of Jesus second advent:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

The saints, translated and resurrected, go "up" and return with Jesus back unto the Father in Heaven, for the duration of the 1,000 years, while the earth remains broken down by the seven last plagues, greatest earthquake, sun and moon being moved out of their places, and the atmosphere being torn asunder, and all the cities broken down and mountains uprooted, seas turned to blood, etc.

It is not until after the 1,000 years that all the saints with Jesus and New Jerusalem return to earth and come down:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.​

Two Jerusalem's will face each other. Old Jerusalem to the west of the Mount of Olives, and New Jerusalem, which will have come down with Jesus and the saints, to the East of Old Jerusalem.

There is no text in scripture which states that the saints "reign" upon the earth for 1,000 years, and every text which shows that they cannot.

WTS do not address those scriptures presented, and never have them fulfilled in their theology.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Just Jesus, but that is your choice... He doesnt force anyone.

I see, so when you tell me what I should believe it's Jesus talking? but what, when JW tell me what I should believe it's just what JW are saying, not Jesus? I myself agree with what JW teach and that it's from the scriptures. You nor anyone else has to agree with that, just as long as you understand I don't agree that what a lot of people are trying to convince me to believe is from the scriptures, which is my right and I will exercise that right. If anyone wants to persecute me for exercising that right so be it, but you certainly won't convince me you're truly one of God's servants. By the way JW don't force anyone to become a baptized JW.

 

[mjrhealth]

I myself agree with what JW teach and that it's from the scriptures

And the catholics do the catholics, and the protestants the protestants and the SDA the SDA, and so on, what makes there religion wrong and yours right?? they read the same bible and get what they perceive to be true and start another religion. and you cannot see the foolishness it it all?? oh but thats because JW is what you like.., I guess thats why we are waiting for the scales to fall off. Funny thing is if you where a protestant you would be having exactly the same argument.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes. The evidence is clear. It's why you defend it rather than truth.

And its obvious you and those like you try to convince me you're infallible when it comes to your beliefs and how you interpret or reason on the scriptures. Like I said, only person infallible is God. If you and others just simply disagreed with JW, I could understand that but you judge people who don't agree with you. Which basically means you will persecute someone who exercises the same right as you, interesting.

 

[ReChoired]

And its obvious you and those like you try to convince me you're infallible when it comes to your beliefs and how you interpret or reason on the scriptures. Like I said, only person infallible is God. If you and others just simply disagreed with JW, I could understand that but you judge people who don't agree with you. Which basically means you will persecute someone who exercises the same right as you, interesting.

You think that when I quote scripture in refutation of error is "persecution".

 

[ReChoired]

Back to OP.

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

 

[mjrhealth]

Back to OP.

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

Pleas dont yell thats just arrogance and not needed.

 

[ReChoired]

Pleas dont yell thats just arrogance and not needed.

I didn't 'yell'. I simply CnP'ed the header and hit 'post reply'. Don't 'read into' that which isn't really there. Now back to OP.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You think that when I quote scripture in refutation of error is "persecution".

People go beyond disagreeing with other people and people go beyond just quoting scriptures. Many people quote scriptures but also give their interpretation of that scripture. What I mean is this, if a person quotes the scripture: Matthew 10:25 which says, " at that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes," but also give their interpretation of that scripture because they're using it to prove that Jesus is the only Lord of heaven and earth because they believe Jesus to be God, that's going beyond just quoting scriptures. Don't misunderstand I'll never speak out against a person or organization that exercises their right to their interpretation of scriptures. The persecution comes when a person or organization that disagrees with that interpretation of the scriptures and are judged as a heretic or a heresy. All that person or organization has done is exercised their right to disagree and are judged for it. When you judge anyone or any organization in any way or sense for exercising their right to disagree that is persecution. You're basically telling them they will be judged for exercising their rights.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't believe, as I said before, that God used his Holy Spirit to have something written down in black and white, that was a lie. When a scripture that is written down in black and white which says that Jesus was praying to his Father, who is the Lord of heaven and earth, that's what I'm going to believe, not someones interpretation of that scripture.

Just realize that Jesus said that the Father is the Lord in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21. And then that Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6 declares to us that there is only one Lord. Then, that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost.

Now, can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and Ephesians 4:5?

If you cannot, then you do not have the Holy Ghost.

I will wait for your answer.

Do you confess that Jesus is the Lord; knowing that there is one Lord and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth?

The 144,000 stand upon the Sea of Glass, for one, and that is understood here -

The 144,000 do not always stand on the sea of glass; for they are not born there. There comes a point in history wherein they are all standing on the sea of glass.

And its obvious you and those like you try to convince me you're infallible when it comes to your beliefs and how you interpret or reason on the scriptures. Like I said, only person infallible is God. If you and others just simply disagreed with JW, I could understand that but you judge people who don't agree with you. Which basically means you will persecute someone who exercises the same right as you, interesting.

@BARNEY BRIGHT,

I would only encourage you to read your Bibles in reliance on the Holy Spirit rather than on a committee.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BARNEY BRIGHT

True Trinity.

 

[Waiting on him]

Or do the wicked perish instead?

Have you ever considered that you were the wicked.... prior to salvation,
Now let me ask, did that perish???

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

justbyfaith said:
Just realize that Jesus said that the Father is the Lord in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21. And then that Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6 declares to us that there is only one Lord. Then, that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost.

Now, can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and Ephesians 4:5?[/Quote\]


The apostle Paul was referring to acceptable water baptism when he wrote: “One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.”—Eph. 4:4-6.

While on earth, Jesus Christ referred to himself as “Lord of the sabbath.” (Mt 12:8) Appropriately, he used the Sabbath for doing the work commanded by his heavenly Father. That work included healing the sick. (Compare Mt 8:16, 17.) Jesus knew that the Mosaic Law, with its Sabbath requirement, was “a shadow of the good things to come.” (Heb 10:1) In connection with those “good things to come,” there is a sabbath of which he is to be the Lord. (Sabbath day/Thousand Year Reign)

While Jesus Christ was on earth, persons besides his disciples called him “Lord,” or “Sir.” (Mt 8:2;Joh 4:11) In these cases the designation was primarily a title of respect or courtesy. However, to his apostles Jesus showed that calling him “Lord” involved more than this. Said he: “You address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and you speak rightly, for I am such.” (Joh 13:13) As his disciples, these apostles were his learners, or pupils. Thus he was their Lord, or Master.

Especially after Jesus’ death and resurrection did his title Lord take on great significance. By means of his sacrificial death, he purchased his followers, this making him their Owner. (Joh 15:13, 14; 1Co 7:23; 2Pe 2:1; Jude 4; Re 5:9, 10) He was also their King and Bridegroom to whom they were subject as their Lord. (Ac 17:7; Eph 5:22-27; compare Joh 3:28, 29; 2Co 11:2; Re 21:9-14.) When Jehovah rewarded his Son for faithfulness to the point of dying a shameful death on a stake, he “exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Php 2:9-11) Acknowledgment of Jesus Christ as Lord means more than simply calling him “Lord.” It requires that an individual recognize Jesus’ position and follow a course of obedience. (Compare Joh 14:21.)

Jehovah God also granted immortality to his faithful Son. Therefore, although many men have ruled as kings or lords, only Jesus Christ, the “King of kings and Lord of lords,” has immortality.—1Ti 6:14-16; Re 19:16.

Since Jesus has the keys of death and Hades (Re 1:17, 18), he is in position to release mankind from the common grave (Joh 5:28, 29) and from the death inherited from Adam. (Ro 5:12, 18) He is therefore also the ‘Lord over the dead,’ including King David, one of his earthly ancestors.—Ac 2:34-36; Ro 14:9.

The fact that Christians have only the “one Lord” Jesus Christ (Eph 4:5) does not rule out their applying “lord” (or, “sir”) to others as a title of respect, courtesy, or authority. The apostle Peter even cited Sarah as a good example for Christian wives because of her obedience to Abraham, “calling him ‘lord.’” (1Pe 3:1-6) This was no mere formality on Sarah’s part. It was a sincere reflection of her submissiveness, for she spoke of him as such “inside herself.” (Ge 18:12) On the other hand, since all Christians are brothers, it would be wrong for them to call one of their number “Leader” or “Lord,” viewing that one as a spiritual leader.—Mt 23:8-10

 

[justbyfaith]

The fact that Christians have only the “one Lord” Jesus Christ (Eph 4:5) does not rule out their applying “lord” (or, “sir”) to others as a title of respect, courtesy, or authority.

You have to ask yourself the question, of whether the Father deserves the the title of "lord" or whether the term "Lord" is more aptly applied to Him.

The reality is that the Father is the "Lord of heaven and earth" and that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost.

We must consider in what sense scripture teaches that there is one Lord. It is not only in context of baptism that Jesus is said to be the one Lord.

And the fact is, that the Father is said to be the Lord of heaven and earth and that we are not to diminish His nature and character by reducing Him to being merely a "lord".

Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

But we are in danger of derailing this thread. So, @BARNEY BRIGHT, if you want to continue this discussion concerning the Deity of Christ, let us take it over to the other thread (I will post a link shortly).

True Trinity.