Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[ReChoired]

... Don't misunderstand I'll never speak out against a person or organization that exercises their right to their interpretation of scriptures. ...

I shall, as it is scriptural to do so, since no man, or organization has the right to interpret the scriptures (which is "private interpretation", the very definition of 'heresy'), as that prerogative belongs to God (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 28:10,13; Luke 24:32,45; Daniel 2:28, etc), and we are to "Amen" what God defined and stated, based upon His good reasoning:

Rev_2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Rev_2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev_2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Mat_3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat_12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luk_3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Mat_22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.​

Lucifer, in Heaven, sought to interpret the Law of God for himself.

The persecution comes when a person or organization that disagrees with that interpretation of the scriptures and are judged as a heretic or a heresy. ...

You just made all doctrine and all faiths equal, and erased any distinction from 'error', 'false', 'heresy', 'heretic' and that which is True, by what you have just said.

Yet scripture makes the distinctions clear, between light and darkness, truth and error.

Tit_3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Act_24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

God's word is clear, that a Christian may indeed 'judge' by the word of God all teachings, beliefs, practices and demonstrate truth from error and call heresy, error, falsehood, etc by its right name, as well as truth, righteousness, equity by theirs.

You are in error, again, Barney.

All that person or organization has done is exercised their right to disagree and are judged for it.

And depending upon circumstance, rightly or wrongly so. The WTS is in much error, and is an dangerous heretical organization in many things., even denying their LORD. Demonstrable upon request again from scripture.

When you judge anyone or any organization in any way or sense for exercising their right to disagree that is persecution.

No, that is your 'private interpretation' of "persecution", which is nothing of the sort. It is in effect attempting to call Good - Evil, and Evil - Good.

You're basically telling them they will be judged for exercising their rights.

You give "rights" where none were granted. You are in effect giving persons the 'devil's freedom', which is no freedom at all.

God said, God defined:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

the devil reinterpreted, redefined, "die":

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

By your present "private interpretation" of "persecution", you just implicated JEHOVAH in "persecuting" the devil/Lucifer for his "private interpretation" of the word of God, "die".

 

[brakelite]

It is Barney's attitude, that everyone can believe what they like and have the right to be left alone in their error, which shall give rise Babylon and the final reign of Antichrist... Only that ecumenical mish mash of heresies will not tolerate truth, but persecute those who hold to scripture and repudiate false tradition and error.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I shall, as it is scriptural to do so, since no man, or organization has the right to interpret the scriptures (which is "private interpretation", the very definition of 'heresy'), as that prerogative belongs to God (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 28:10,13; Luke 24:32,45; Daniel 2:28, etc), and we are to "Amen" what God defined and stated, based upon His good reasoning:

Rev_2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Rev_2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Rev_2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Mat_3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat_12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luk_3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Mat_22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.​

Lucifer, in Heaven, sought to interpret the Law of God for himself.

You just made all doctrine and all faiths equal, and erased any distinction from 'error', 'false', 'heresy', 'heretic' and that which is True, by what you have just said.

Yet scripture makes the distinctions clear, between light and darkness, truth and error.

Tit_3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Act_24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

God's word is clear, that a Christian may indeed 'judge' by the word of God all teachings, beliefs, practices and demonstrate truth from error and call heresy, error, falsehood, etc by its right name, as well as truth, righteousness, equity by theirs.

You are in error, again, Barney.

And depending upon circumstance, rightly or wrongly so. The WTS is in much error, and is an dangerous heretical organization in many things., even denying their LORD. Demonstrable upon request again from scripture.

No, that is your 'private interpretation' of "persecution", which is nothing of the sort. It is in effect attempting to call Good - Evil, and Evil - Good.

You give "rights" where none were granted. You are in effect giving persons the 'devil's freedom', which is no freedom at all.

God said, God defined:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

the devil reinterpreted, redefined, "die":

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

By your present "private interpretation" of "persecution", you just implicated JEHOVAH in "persecuting" the devil/Lucifer for his "private interpretation" of the word of God, "die".

People have their beliefs, such as, "The Trinity Doctrine, immortality of the soul, hellfire doctrine." These are just a few of the beliefs that many people who call themselves Christians believe in. I haven't found these beliefs that people believe, in scripture. However, people take certain scriptures and interpret those scriptures to try to confirm their beliefs. So, since I can't find any scriptures that confirm the Trinity the Trinity being defined as: "In the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ The Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”⁠
I have not found this anywhere in the scriptures. I also haven't found in scripture where a man has a immortal soul. I've found in scripture that the righteous humans who get a resurrection like Jesus when resurrected are rewarded with immortality but they didn't have that immortality before they died. Also, nowhere in the scriptures does it say the unrighteous are given immortality. So since I can't find these beliefs in the scriptures but I do see people taking a scripture or scriptures and twist them or take them out of context to try and prove what they believe, that's them interpreting those scriptures to go along with what they believe. According to you, that's heresy.

 

[ReChoired]

People have their beliefs ...

Around in circles goes the WTS/JW. Every time, I have engaged with such persons, they, without fail, at present, always go off topic, never addressing the points made, circling, and circling, and shift the discussion from the original point to always try to attack the false doctrine of the Roman Catholic "trinity". Not the OP Barney. Make a differing OP, and I will be glad to show not only the Roman Catholic doctrine in error, but the error of the WTS/JW as well on it, and you will do the same thing there, shift the topic from one thing to another, circling around and around.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, since I can't find any scriptures that confirm the Trinity the Trinity being defined as: "In the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ The Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”⁠

I suggest you study the scriptures that I have laid out in the following thread:

True Trinity.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Around in circles goes the WTS/JW. Every time, I have engaged with such persons, they, without fail, at present, always go off topic, never addressing the points made, circling, and circling, and shift the discussion from the original point to always try to attack the false doctrine of the Roman Catholic "trinity". Not the OP Barney. Make a differing OP, and I will be glad to show not only the Roman Catholic doctrine in error, but the error of the WTS/JW as well on it, and you will do the same thing there, shift the topic from one thing to another, circling around and around.

So you answer like this because you know I'm right, you can't show anywhere in scripture that what you believe is written down. You only interpret from the scriptures what you believe. So according to you what you believe is heresy.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I suggest you study the scriptures that I have laid out in the following thread:

True Trinity.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

You're not going to find any scriptures written down black and white that say the Only Begotten Son and the Father are the same person or that they are equal in authority etc. I don't have to study any of the scriptures you laid out to know that the Trinity, immortality of the Soul, or the hellfire doctrine that many believe in, isn't in the scriptures. Since ReChoired has said people interpreting the scriptures is heresy then what people are believing in when they believe such things as hellfire doctrine, the Trinity, immortality of the Soul is heresy, because you can only interpret from the scriptures to convince yourself and others they are scriptural.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't have to study any of the scriptures you laid out to know that the Trinity, immortality of the Soul, or the hellfire doctrine that many believe in, isn't in the scriptures.

Obviously, you are not going to find that these doctrines are in the holy scriptures, as long as you don't study the holy scriptures.

In order to find them, you would have to look for them.

And the scriptures that I laid out in the thread in question were primarily on the Trinity. I notice that you still haven't responded to that thread; in spite of the fact that I tagged you in it. Cat got your tongue?

True Trinity.

 

[ReChoired]

You're not going to find any scriptures written down black and white that say the Only Begotten Son and the Father are the same person

See what I mean? You cannot help yourself. As a WTS/JW member, you cannot but help present the strawman argument of Oneness doctrine, which I do not believe, nor teach. Of course the Father and the Son are not the "same person". That is ridiculous and absurd nonsense. You will not once have found me to teach such a thing on these forums, or in any place, ever.

Yet, around and around in circles you go. Even when I tell this to you here and now, later, if we discuss it, you will again refer to this false strawman as if I believed and taught it, as though I had said nothing to you about it.

or that they are equal in authority etc.

Depends on what you mean, for the Father and Son share the same Throne of Eternal Deity, though the Son is eternally subject to the Father, as it is written (even in type):

Gen_41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.​

Yet, even so, it is also written:

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

And still further, though the Son has "All power" (very definition of Omnipotent = 'all power/authority') "in heaven and in earth", and is subject to His Father (Exodus 20:12), Eternally Honouring His Father, doing His will (John 4:34, 5:30, 6:38; Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 10:7, etc), this does not negate His Eternal Nature as Deity/God (Philippians 2:6-8), not the person of the Father (Hebrews 1:3), but that of the Son. Thus the Son and Father are equal in their Nature (Hebrews 1:3,8-13, 13:5-8, etc).

Yet, you will continue as though I said nothing in this regard, and later, come full circle to the false strawman of Oneness doctrine, which was never my burden at any point. It is guaranteed (and when I see it so, I will mark it so).

I don't have to study any of the scriptures you laid out

See what I mean? You refuse to address any of the texts I cited, and merely fall back onto a non-sequitur subject, that has nothing to do with the topic we were speaking on. Every WTS/JW member I have ever personally came across, does this. When I approach a subject they are unfamiliar with, and they do not know how to respond, they default to their strawman circles.

to know that the Trinity

None of the texts, or subjects I presented, were ever about the false doctrine of 'Roman Catholicism/Orthodoxy' in 'trinity'. I do not teach, nor believe in such false doctrine and am very vocal about its error. Yet, what do you do? Accuse me of that which was never my burden, simply because you refuse to address the texts I cited on the subject at hand.

, immortality of the Sou/

And yet, the WTS/JW does teach this in at least one major area, aka their false understanding of the 144,000, as they teach that some persons when they died, went to heaven without an resurrection. ...

or the hellfire doctrine that many believe in, isn't in the scriptures.

Actually hellfire doctrine is in the scriptures, but eternal conscious torment is not. Hell and hellfire, lake of fire is throughout the whole of scripture. It is that eternal conscious torment is not in those texts.

Since ReChoired has said people interpreting the scriptures is heresy then what people are believing in when they believe such things as hellfire doctrine, the Trinity, immortality of the Soul is heresy, because you can only interpret from the scriptures to convince yourself and others they are scriptural.

Your equation is faulty, for if you would actually read what I presented here, you would see that and re-adjust the equation to that which is true, rather to that which is merely imaginative and non-existent.

 

[farouk]

Already addressed.

The koine Greek of the text actually reads thus in the GNT TR:

Revelation 20:10 GNT TR - "... εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων ..."​

Transliterated into English letters: "... [h]eis touS aiwnaS twn aiwnwn ..." [whereas "w" is transliterated Greek "o-mega", and "S" being a final ending 's'], reading a very harsh literal, 'into the [or that] aeon [of] the aeon', which carries the meaning of the English word - "throughout" [being continuous, without reprieve], or 'period to period', 'age to age', 'moment to moment', 'epoch to epoch', 'era to era', etc. When connected with the words "ημερας και νυκτος" [day and night], it means that the devil/satan will suffer in his torments/punishment [as his works, according to his deeds, etc, shall he be punished] continuously throughout day and night, on this earth, without relief, until he is smoke and ashes, as per texts already cited. He is not an eternal being, and never will be, and God will never sustain such a being through all eternity, especially in endless suffering, it is against His very character of Justice, Mercy and Love. The text deals with torment, not the ending, death. It reveals that Satan shall not escape the torment of the fire, and shall burn continuously until he is ashes, and not be "any more".

Eze_27:36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more.

Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.​

For satan desired to be "I AM", and through this, "never shalt ... be any more".

Again, it is not the words or the translation of "for ever and ever" [they're perfect] [in any such translation, you could list 100 such same translations, it doesn't matter, that is not the issue, the words are perfectly fine, and I agree with them, and the argument is not about the 'beast' or the 'false prophet', I already agree about their position and where they were during the 1,000 years [a limited time, for this world and all wickedness and sinners will pass away], etc], but [the issue is] what the words mean scripturally [KJB]. God gave the words, and thus gets to define the words, for God knows what they mean and what is intended to convey by giving them, and even ties the word "devoured" in the previous verse [9]. The very next verse after 20:15 KJB is:

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

My question remains. Where is the devil, and all of the finally impenitent when they receive their fiery punishment? Where? Will there be any "place" found for the wicked in the New Heavens and New Earth?

Are you saying that the words, "forever and ever" in scripture [KJB], always means unending, having no time limit whatsoever? What if I show you other meanings, and other times [than eternal] from the same book?

So you mean that God ceases to be angry with sin eventually and even if ppl refuse the Gospel in unbelief God won't in the end hold them to account? this anyway seems the logic of your apparent position (unless I have missed something).

 

[ReChoired]

So you mean that God ceases to be angry with sin ...

No, you have it in reverse, for sin will cease to exist, as it is written:

Sin has a limit, and only temporary, as all sin is ultimately 'vanity':

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

It is not eternal, as God is.

Psa_7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.​

The devil is also not eternal, but merely a finite being, who also will soon come to his own end, and he knowing that he has but a "short time" (Revelation 12:12):

Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.​

But inspite of the many texts on this, people will choose their own carnal doctrine over that which is to God's own righteous character of perfect justice, love, mercy and glory; and yea, worse still, they will foist that evil upon God Himself. Woe unto them.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

 

[justbyfaith]

To be fair, @ReChoired, @BARNEY BRIGHT is having to deal with some as his opponents who believe in Oneness doctrine (yours truly). Though my particular take on the Trinity may not be defined specifically as Oneness; but as a cross between Oneness and the Trinity.

 

[farouk]

No, you have it in reverse, for sin will cease to exist, as it is written:

Sin has a limit, and only temporary, as all sin is ultimately 'vanity':

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

It is not eternal, as God is.

Psa_7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.​

The devil is also not eternal, but merely a finite being, who also will soon come to his own end, and he knowing that he has but a "short time" (Revelation 12:12):

Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.​

But inspite of the many texts on this, people will choose their own carnal doctrine over that which is to God's own righteous character of perfect justice, love, mercy and glory; and yea, worse still, they will foist that evil upon God Himself. Woe unto them.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

Are you really arguing that the unjustified can nevertheless stand before a holy God?

 

[Helen]

So you mean that God ceases to be angry with sin...

Isa 53 "He saw the travail of His soul ✟ and was satisfied ..."
He is outside of time...

The Last Lamb was perfect and Enough...

 

[ReChoired]

Are you really arguing that the unjustified can nevertheless stand before a holy God?

Sure, briefly, then the fire of God's love consumes them from above and below, one after the other - until there are none.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

Luk_19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.​

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

ReChoired quoted:
[Mat_28:18 -Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And still further, though the Son has "All power" (very definition of Omnipotent = 'all power/authority') "in heaven and in earth", and is subject to His Father (Exodus 20:12), Eternally Honouring His Father, doing His will (John 4:34, 5:30, 6:38; Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 10:7, etc), this does not negate His Eternal Nature as Deity/God (Philippians 2:6-8), not the person of the Father (Hebrews 1:3), but that of the Son. Thus the Son and Father are equal in their Nature (Hebrews 1:3,8-13, 13:5-8, etc).[/Quote\]

I disagree that Jesus is omnipotent like his Father and God whose name is YHWH(JEHOVAH/YAWAH). The scripture in Matthew 20:18 says Jesus was given all power and authority. No one has given the Father and God of Jesus power or authority. He has always had all power and authority. So to say that Jesus is equal to his Father and God as though Jesus has always had all power and authority, that's not what this scripture in Matthew says.
At Philippians 2:6-8 Jesus was in no way saying he was equal to God but instead the attitude and thinking he had about himself is that, "although he was in God's form he would never snatch at any thought that he was equal to God." The words deity and God do not only apply to the True God alone . So the deity that Jesus has, by his own thinking and attitude, was that he doesn't consider it to be equal with God. You can say Jesus is a mighty God but Jesus isn't Almighty God. Jesus Father and God is The Almighty God alone no one is equal to him.

ReChoired said:
And yet, the WTS/JW does teach this in at least one major area, aka their false understanding of the 144,000, as they teach that some persons when they died, went to heaven without an resurrection. [/Quote\]

You know nothing what the JW Teach on this subject. JW have always taught that everyone of the144,000 will die and get a resurrection like Jesus, being rewarded with immortality and inheriting incorruption.

ReChoired said:
Actually hellfire doctrine is in the scriptures, but eternal conscious torment is not. Hell and hellfire, lake of fire is throughout the whole of scripture. It is that eternal conscious torment is not in those texts.[/Quote\]

I disagree, the hellfire doctrine isn't in the scriptures. Humans have nothing inside them, such as a soul that literally goes anywhere, because the scriptures teach you are a soul not that you have one. So the words, hell/hades/sheol are words that are to be looked at in a symbolic way. The Only thing that happens is that when humans die God knowing their minds and hearts judges them if they are deserving of a resurrection. So in actuality if you are rembered by God if he judges a person deserving of a resurrection it simply means a person is in God's mind.

 

[justbyfaith]

I disagree, the hellfire doctrine isn't in the scriptures.

You need to read the scriptures a little more instead of Watchtower publications.

 

[farouk]

Isa 53 "He saw the travail of His soul ✟ and was satisfied ..."
He is outside of time...

The Last Lamb was perfect and Enough...

Indeed, as regards those who trust in Him.

 

[Hobie]

It is Barney's attitude, that everyone can believe what they like and have the right to be left alone in their error, which shall give rise Babylon and the final reign of Antichrist... Only that ecumenical mish mash of heresies will not tolerate truth, but persecute those who hold to scripture and repudiate false tradition and error.

It is happening in ways you cannot imagine, as many of the truths are being taken down with these tools being used in the fight against 'fake news' from those trying to influence political issues.

 

[Hobie]

Here is a study that reads almost as a personal testimony I came across on this...
"There are numerous scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that there is no eternal life for the wicked (not even in Hell). Here are quite a few that I found from the PC Study Bible after doing a search for the words "eternal life" in the concordance...

Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

This man spoke of obtaining eternal life. It wasn't as if he already possessed it. Preachers today would probably say to him "Son, you already have eternal life; it's just a matter of where you will spend it." But Jesus never said that.

Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

They will inherit eternal life. This indicates that not everyone has it already.

Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but it is juxtaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal: there is no reversing it and no coming back from it. If Jesus meant for the punishment to last eternally, he probably wouldn't have contrasted it with the phrase "eternal life" which is clearly meant only for believers. If Jesus had intended what most churches believe he did with this verse, he should have said, "Both the righteous and the unrighteous will go away to eternal life, but the unrighteous will spend it being tortured while the righteous spend theirs in paradise."

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

This is the most quoted verse in the Bible and also one of the clearest accounts on the annihilation of the wicked. "...Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John didn't write that "...whoever believes in Him shall not have everlasting life in torment, but rather have everlasting life in Heaven." The way most churches interpret this, they mentally replace the very clear word "perish" with something that means nearly the opposite: "never perish."

John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Once again, the words "eternal life" and "life" are associated strictly with the righteous. The word "death" is reserved for the unrighteous, who will not go to Heaven. It takes a good bit of theological gymnastics to continually reinterpret these divinely inspired Words of God to mean the exact opposite of their natural meanings. Since when does "death" mean "eternal life away from God"? If John intended to say that, he should have used almost any other word instead of "death."
John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"

John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is another very popular verse which is quite clear in its teaching. "The wages of sin is death (not eternal life in torture), but the gift of God is eternal life..."

Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

Once again, "eternal life" is from the Spirit and "corruption" is reaped from the flesh.

Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Most Christians claim that all people, saved and unsaved, have eternal life abiding in them, but this is certainly not what the scriptures teach.

1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

Eternal life is only in God's son. The unrighteous do not have the gift of eternal life.

All of the above scriptures were reached in a search for the words "eternal life" in the PC Study Bible. The search actually returned 42 occurrences of the phrase in the NASU version of the Bible. I did not incorporate every single verse because many were essentially repeats of verses I did include (for instance, some of the Gospels record virtually the same teachings of Jesus) and a few others were slightly less clear. However, in the entire Bible, there is not a single verse that records anything to the affect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a matter of where each will spend it." Yet this is what most of the church today believes."...HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?