Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

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Hobie

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Bible scholars are very clear on this issue, take a look...

"1st. It shows that Sheol of the Old Testament, and Hades of the New, both translated by our English word hell, did not originally signify a place of misery for the wicked, but simply the state of the dead , without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery. It follows, of course, that wherever these two words are used in Scripture, though translated by the word hell, we ought not to understand a place of misery to be meant by the inspired writers.


2d. It establishes, also, that our English word hell, in its primitive signification, perfectly corresponded to Hades and Sheol, and did not, as it now does, signify a place of misery. It denoted only what was secret or concealed. What we wish to be noticed here, is, that people, generally, have connected the idea of misery with the word hell; but it is evident that it is a very false association. It is beyond all controversy that the word is changed from its original signification to express this idea.

3d. It is also obvious from the above quotation, and from other authors which might be quoted, that Gehenna is the word which is supposed to express the idea of a place of endless misery. The correctness of this opinion we shall consider afterwards. At present it need only be observed, that if the opinion be correct, it is somewhat surprising that the English word hell must assume a new sense to accommodate it with a name. Nor was this the original sense of the term Gehenna, as I shall show afterwards.

4th. I add, in regard to the statements made in the above quotation, that they are not opinions broached by a Universalist in support of his system. No; they are the statements of Dr. Campbell, who was not a Universalist. Nor are they his opinions alone, but admitted as correct by learned orthodox critics and commentators. In Mr. E. J. Chapman’s critical and explanatory notes, we find very similar statements made, on Acts 2: 27, which, to save room, I forbear transcribing.

5th. It is now generally conceded that the doctrine of endless punishment is not taught in the Old Testament. Mr. Stuart does not pretend that it is taught there; but thinks that probably future punishment may be taught in five texts. Was it then brought to light by the Gospel? The doctrine of endless punishment was current among the heathen nations long before the appearance of Christ. But who revealed it to heathen nations, yet left the Jewish nation in ignorance concerning it? If it is said it originated in early revelations which are now lost, I ask, how happened it that the heathen knew so much and the Jews so little about it?"...http://creationismonline.com/Studies/1325.PDF
 
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Hobie

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Many want to go with preconceived ideas, rather than what we have in scripture. Here is from my buddy Amo...

2 Peter 2: 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

...God has proved beyond all question, through His Son, that He is not a vindictive God. On the other hand, He certainly will not excuse the guilty.

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

...I do not believe a God who says that He is love, could burn countless billions of people in hell for all eternity, this is not the deciding factor of my conviction. You are simply wrong about there being no evidence for what I believe in the bible. To the contrary, there is far greater scriptural evidence for what I believe, than for those who believe in eternal torment.

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. It is one thing to disagree, it is another to make false accusations against those whom you disagree with.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 

Timtofly

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Please get events in the proper sequence. The people devoured by fire falling from Heaven in Revelation 20:9 are not the same people thrown into the Lake of Fire in verse 15. Come now, this isn't rocket science.

First there is the conflict inspired by Satan as soon as he's released after being imprisoned for a thousand years. Those who actively support him are destroyed by fire from Heaven. Then the Devil is finally disposed of, being thrown in the Lake of Fire; and then the dead are judged. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The last chapter of the book tells us the people thrown into the Lake of Fire earlier are now outside the Holy City, unable to enter. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

Emphatically both body and soul can be destroyed in hell. Completely. Totally out of existence. That does not mean both physical body and soul are being tortured eternally.

I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. Nowhere in the Bible is the soul said to be immortal. Soul is used to describe the animating force of the body; and animals have soul too. The Bible says animals have soul. If people behave like animals -- or worse than animals even -- their souls certainly will not be preserved or made immortal. Why would God make wicked souls immortal?

How is the soul not immortal? For one the soul is not even physical. Thus immortality dealing with a fleshly body has nothing to do with the soul. We are not our body, thus not immortal. Jesus has an Immortal body, because His body never decayed nor had to be replaced. Enoch has an Immortal body and there are assumed sons of God still in immortal bodies.

God says a soul does die. Meaning that yes, some souls will stop existing in God's knowledge, ie dead. The Lake of Fire is where God says it will happen. Probably should just wait until that happens to define it, or God defines it at any time other than calling it The Lake of Fire.
 

Timtofly

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Bible scholars are very clear on this issue, take a look...

"1st. It shows that Sheol of the Old Testament, and Hades of the New, both translated by our English word hell, did not originally signify a place of misery for the wicked, but simply the state of the dead , without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery. It follows, of course, that wherever these two words are used in Scripture, though translated by the word hell, we ought not to understand a place of misery to be meant by the inspired writers.


2d. It establishes, also, that our English word hell, in its primitive signification, perfectly corresponded to Hades and Sheol, and did not, as it now does, signify a place of misery. It denoted only what was secret or concealed. What we wish to be noticed here, is, that people, generally, have connected the idea of misery with the word hell; but it is evident that it is a very false association. It is beyond all controversy that the word is changed from its original signification to express this idea.

3d. It is also obvious from the above quotation, and from other authors which might be quoted, that Gehenna is the word which is supposed to express the idea of a place of endless misery. The correctness of this opinion we shall consider afterwards. At present it need only be observed, that if the opinion be correct, it is somewhat surprising that the English word hell must assume a new sense to accommodate it with a name. Nor was this the original sense of the term Gehenna, as I shall show afterwards.

4th. I add, in regard to the statements made in the above quotation, that they are not opinions broached by a Universalist in support of his system. No; they are the statements of Dr. Campbell, who was not a Universalist. Nor are they his opinions alone, but admitted as correct by learned orthodox critics and commentators. In Mr. E. J. Chapman’s critical and explanatory notes, we find very similar statements made, on Acts 2: 27, which, to save room, I forbear transcribing.

5th. It is now generally conceded that the doctrine of endless punishment is not taught in the Old Testament. Mr. Stuart does not pretend that it is taught there; but thinks that probably future punishment may be taught in five texts. Was it then brought to light by the Gospel? The doctrine of endless punishment was current among the heathen nations long before the appearance of Christ. But who revealed it to heathen nations, yet left the Jewish nation in ignorance concerning it? If it is said it originated in early revelations which are now lost, I ask, how happened it that the heathen knew so much and the Jews so little about it?"...http://creationismonline.com/Studies/1325.PDF

Jesus said: Luke 16:23
“In Sh’ol, where he was in torment, the rich man looked up and saw Avraham far away with El‘azar at his side."

Seems pretty evident there is torment.
 

Joseph77

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Tradition controls more people's beliefs than truth does, apparently or obviously.
 

Hobie

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Jesus said: Luke 16:23
“In Sh’ol, where he was in torment, the rich man looked up and saw Avraham far away with El‘azar at his side."

Seems pretty evident there is torment.
Well lets go over the story again, as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.

Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.

While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)

Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.

Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.

Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.

Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.

1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.

2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.

3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."The rich man and Lazarus - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software
 

Hobie

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How is the soul not immortal? For one the soul is not even physical. Thus immortality dealing with a fleshly body has nothing to do with the soul. We are not our body, thus not immortal. Jesus has an Immortal body, because His body never decayed nor had to be replaced. Enoch has an Immortal body and there are assumed sons of God still in immortal bodies.

God says a soul does die. Meaning that yes, some souls will stop existing in God's knowledge, ie dead. The Lake of Fire is where God says it will happen. Probably should just wait until that happens to define it, or God defines it at any time other than calling it The Lake of Fire.
Thats what crept into the church, but its not from Gods Word. The apostate church then tried to force this false idea to be accepted, as we see Pope Leo X who on December 19th, 1513 issued a Bull (Apostoloici regimis) declaring:
"We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal."

"Damnamus et reprobamus omnes assertentes animam intellectivam mortalem ess."

This bull was directed against the growing "heresy" of those who denied the natural immortality of the soul, and avowed the conditional immortality of man. [H.J. Schroeder, Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils, 1937, pp. 483, 487.]

But many still spoke the truth...

Pietro Pomponatius of Mantua, a noted Italian professor and leader among the Averrorists, who denied the immortality of the soul, issued a book in opposition to the papal bull titled, Treatise on the Immortality of the Soul, 1516. This book was widely read, especially in Italian universities. [Pietro Pomponatius, Treatise on the Immortality of the Soul, 1516.]

Dr. Martin Luther posted his Theses on October 31, 1517 in Wittenberg. In his 1520 published Defence of 41 of his propositions, Luther cited the pope's immortality declaration, as among "those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals." [
Martin Luther, Assertio Omnium Articulorum M. Lutheri per Bullam Leonis X. Novissimam Damnatorum (Assertion of all the articles of M. Luther condemned by the latest Bull of Leo X.), article 27, Weimar edition of Luther's Works, Vol. 7, pp. 131,132.]

The 27th proposition read:

"However, I permit the Pope establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful - such are:
a) That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament;
b) that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated;
c) that the soul is the substantial form of the human body;
d) that he (the pope) is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god;
e) that the soul is immortal;
and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals - in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish." [Martin Luther, Assertio Omnium Articulorum M. Lutheri per Bullam Leonis X. Novissimam Damnatorum (Assertion of all the articles of M. Luther condemned by the latest Bull of Leo X.), article 27, Weimar edition of Luther's Workds, Vol. 7, pp. 131,132 (a point by point exposition of his position, written Dec. 1, 1520, in response to requests for a fuller treatment than that given in his Adversus execrabilum Antichristi Bullam, and Wider die Bulle des Endchrists.]


William Tyndale (1484-1536), British Bible translator, came to the defense of the revived teaching of conditional immortality. This, as well as other teachings brought him in direct conflict with the papal champion, Thomas More, who strongly objected against Tyndale and Luther who, in the words of More, said, "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday". In 1530 Tyndale responded vigorously saying,

"And ye, in putting them (the departed souls) in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection ... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?" [William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's dialogue, Parker's 1850 reprint, Bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180,181.]

Tyndale pressed his contention even further showing that the papal teaching on the subject is in conflict with St. Paul:

"`Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection?" [Ibid., p. 180.]

John Frith, associate of Tyndale stated his views similarly to those of Tyndale. He wrote:

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise; ... and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." [John Frith, An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester.]

George Wishart (1500-1546), Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox. Wishart was charged with attacking aurricular confession, transubstantiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints (who couldn't hear their supplications anyway), and purgatory.

Charge "XVI" stated: "Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." [Blackburne, Historical View, p. 21.]
 
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Timtofly

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The hell that Lazarus went to stopped being the way you describe as untenable at the cross. The fact there was torment is not based on your arguments but on Jesus' Word. Quoting a bunch of theology and speculation does not change the simple facts of a literal story.

The story was for those listening as reality, and all the Words of Jesus have a warning in them about avoiding the world and what the world offers.

Saying God copied what God created and designed before the first act of creation, and taken from human understanding of this creation is backwards. God trumps any human explanation.
 

Joseph77

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Lazarus "went to" the grave. The idea he went to hell, came from myths from babylon or from the Saducees or Pharisees Jesus spoke to, exposing their false teachings and false beliefs..
 

quietthinker

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The hell that Lazarus went to stopped being the way you describe as untenable at the cross. The fact there was torment is not based on your arguments but on Jesus' Word. Quoting a bunch of theology and speculation does not change the simple facts of a literal story.

The story was for those listening as reality, and all the Words of Jesus have a warning in them about avoiding the world and what the world offers.

Saying God copied what God created and designed before the first act of creation, and taken from human understanding of this creation is backwards. God trumps any human explanation.
This is confusion Timtofly.
 
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101G

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Good topic, just scanned a few responses. not saying that any are right or wrong, but consider this. Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations".

question, "God knows, or knew all of us before he formed us in our mothers wombs, but did we consciously knew, or know him, ... before?". if anyone did please post it.

PICJAG.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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It is Barney's attitude, that everyone can believe what they like and have the right to be left alone in their error, which shall give rise Babylon and the final reign of Antichrist... Only that ecumenical mish mash of heresies will not tolerate truth, but persecute those who hold to scripture and repudiate false tradition and error.

What you talk about as Babylon and the Antichrist, well the Antichrist was already here in the world during the time the Apostles were living. If your talking about Babylon the great that global organization began growing even before the Babylonian Empire ruled. It basically represents the world Empire of false religion. So Jehovah's witnesses had nothing nor will have nothing to do with bringing to rise of Babylon or the Antichrist, since these two organizations have been in existence for many centuries.
 

Joseph77

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question, "God knows, or knew all of us before he formed us in our mothers wombs, but did we consciously knew, or know him, ... before?". if anyone did please post it.
This is confusion, not God's Word.

No human was given life until conceived in the womb as God Says.

God KNEW everything, before creating ANY of the universe, or ANY life.
 

Hobie

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Good topic, just scanned a few responses. not saying that any are right or wrong, but consider this. Jeremiah 1:4 "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations".

question, "God knows, or knew all of us before he formed us in our mothers wombs, but did we consciously knew, or know him, ... before?". if anyone did please post it.

PICJAG.
We are not God, or have His power to see into the future or exist before we are formed, that should be clear to any who study the Bible.
 

101G

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We are not God, or have His power to see into the future or exist before we are formed, that should be clear to any who study the Bible.
first thanks for the reply, second, did I say we're "GOD?", or did I say we have his "POWERS?" or did I asked a question in response to Jeremiah 1:5.

so, did you consciously knew, or know him, ... before?..... that should be easy to answer. and it have nothing to do with us having any Godly powers either, ... lol.

REMEMBER, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Hobie

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first thanks for the reply, second, did I say we're "GOD?", or did I say we have his "POWERS?" or did I asked a question in response to Jeremiah 1:5.

so, did you consciously knew, or know him, ... before?..... that should be easy to answer. and it have nothing to do with us having any Godly powers either, ... lol.

REMEMBER, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Your post came with those implications whether stated directly or not.
 

Hobie

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The hell that Lazarus went to stopped being the way you describe as untenable at the cross. The fact there was torment is not based on your arguments but on Jesus' Word. Quoting a bunch of theology and speculation does not change the simple facts of a literal story.

The story was for those listening as reality, and all the Words of Jesus have a warning in them about avoiding the world and what the world offers.

Saying God copied what God created and designed before the first act of creation, and taken from human understanding of this creation is backwards. God trumps any human explanation.
Just look at the use of the 'bosom of Abraham', it was a parable with Christ using it to make a point, that is all.
 

Hobie

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What you talk about as Babylon and the Antichrist, well the Antichrist was already here in the world during the time the Apostles were living. If your talking about Babylon the great that global organization began growing even before the Babylonian Empire ruled. It basically represents the world Empire of false religion. So Jehovah's witnesses had nothing nor will have nothing to do with bringing to rise of Babylon or the Antichrist, since these two organizations have been in existence for many centuries.
Well there are many who have looked at this and we find a clue in 2 Thessalonians 2:7
2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
For more than 500 years, half a millennium, Rome was invincible. Its laws and legions stretched out from Rome and crushed those who would challenge it, but it too finally faded and it stopped holding back what prophecy had foretold.

Geneva Study Bible

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (7) He foretells that when the empire of Rome is taken away, the seat that falls away from God will succeed and hold its place, as the old writers, Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome explain and interpret it... He who is now in authority and rules all, that is, the Roman Empire

2 Thessalonians 2:7 He will surely be revealed; for the mystery - The deep, secret power of iniquity, just opposite to the power of godliness, already worketh. It began with the love of honour, and the desire of power; and is completed in the entire subversion of the gospel of Christ. This mystery of iniquity is not wholly confined to the Romish church, but extends itself to others also. It seems to consist of,
  1. Human inventions added to the written word.
  2. Mere outside performances put in the room of faith and love.
  3. Other mediators besides the man Christ Jesus.
The two last branches, together with idolatry and bloodshed, are the direct consequences of the former; namely, the adding to the word of God. Already worketh - In the church. Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors, heathen or Christian; the kings, Goths or Lombards; the Carolingian or German emperors.

Wesley's Explanatory Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:7 7 He will surely be revealed; for the mystery - The deep, secret power of iniquity, just opposite to the power of godliness, already worketh. It began with the love of honour, and the desire of power; and is completed in the entire subversion of the gospel of Christ. This mystery of iniquity is not wholly confined to the Romish church, but extends itself to others also. It seems to consist of, Human inventions added to the written word. Mere outside performances put in the room of faith and love. Other mediators besides the man Christ Jesus. The two last branches, together with idolatry and bloodshed, are the direct consequences of the former; namely, the adding to the word of God. Already worketh - In the church. Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors, heathen or Christian; the kings, Goths or Lombards; the Carolingian or German emperors.