Little Johnny will most assuredly feel the pain of his punishment for the rest of eternity; for now the only way that he will have any money is if he works at a job...never again will he receive free money from his parents as a benefit of being their child.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I believe differently about the word soul than you do. From what I get from the scriptures I am a soul I don't have one, the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Ge 1:20; 2:7; Nu 31:28;1Pe 3:20; ) In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. I can agree with using such terms as “life,” “creature,” “person,” “one’s whole being," but I see nothing in scripture that says I have a soul that separates at death. I also don't believe the word spirit is some intelligent spiritual thing inside me. The scriptures show that man and animal's have the same spirit.
The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.—Ex 35:21; Ps 104:29;Mt 12:43; Lu 11:13. I believe when the dead both righteous and unrighteous are resurrected they will be souls, flesh and blood persons. Since the scriptures show that Satan and his demons who are spiritual beings and the unrighteous humans will be thrown into the lake of fire and also death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire to me that means not only death and hell will be destroyed out of existence forever but also Satan his demons and the unrighteous humans will be destroyed out of existence forever. So I don't agree with the unrighteous dead having a nightmare while they sleeping in death. There's too much evidence that shows God will destroy evil out of existence that he will also destroy death and Hell out of existence. Other people can believe what they want but from the scriptures they haven't proved to me that what they believe is true, not even that nightmare belief.
Destruction would be everlasting wouldn't it? And it would most assuredly be a punishment. Just not constant punishing.
After reading your series of responses to this thread my only conclusion is that your theology, eschatology, soteriology, and any other ology you care to name is so close to the edge, that if the earth was flat a cat would have knocked it off a long time ago.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I disagree mainly because you choose to look at these scriptures that have phrases like, "wailing and gnashing of teeth" literally which certainly is your right I just disagree with taking them literally. I just believe that people who take such phrases literally and believe in a fiery torment make God out to be some torturous person and I'm not going to believe that about God. God doesn't torture person's. I honestly believe if God has a choice of sending a person to a place where he or she will be tortured or simply destroying them out of existence I believe he'll destroy them out of existence. I'm suppose to believe that God will destroy hell and death out of existence but he'd rather torture person's. I don't think so. God has the power to destroy out of existence what he has brought into existence so no I don't think God tortures people.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Is there a difference?....I think not. Perish, damnation, death....all mean the same thing.
You have a confusion of the "torment" which is finite, limited, with the ending, death, which is final and for ever. Notice please, that Jesus, who suffered for sins, then after suffering, died:
[1] suffering, torment and "time"
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
1Pe_3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Mat_8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
[2] death, finality, endless (eternal punishment, from which there is no possibility of resurrection unto life)
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Thus it is suffering/torment (road) "unto"(second) death (destination).
God is "long suffering" with the wicked, and unreprentant, not 'endlessly suffering' them to live.
We can see how the Bible uses the word "perish":
Num_17:12 And the children of Israel spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish.
Deu_8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.
Deu_28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
1Sa_26:10 David said furthermore, As the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish.
Est_7:4 For we are sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the enemy could not countervail the king's damage.
Job_34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Job_36:12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
Psa_37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa_41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
Psa_49:10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
Psa_68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Mat_9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Joh_11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Deu_8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.
Deu_28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
1Sa_26:10 David said furthermore, As the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish.
Est_7:4 For we are sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the enemy could not countervail the king's damage.
Job_34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Job_36:12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
Psa_37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa_41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
Psa_49:10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
Psa_68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Mat_9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Joh_11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
etc.
Humans, with the less than desirable moral integrity, still finds absolutely abhorrent the concept of torture and tyranny. If taken man can have the capacity to recognise the such behaviour is deplorable and an abomination, how much more would God consider such practices being applied to Him, to be even more an abomination. But such is the perverted nature of man that they can ascribe to God a similar nature as belonging to the worst of dedpots. There is nothing logical, just, or godly in the concept of eternal torment.
That everlasting contempt is what the redeemed carry as an attitude toward the lost... Not a character trait of the lost giving rise to the idea that they live forever.
Yes. They die what is known as the second death... From which there is no resurrection.
The are none unless you believe that death doesn't mean death, which would not be surprising considering the bulk of Christendom had for a long time accepted Satan's theory on the state of the dead as opposed to God's word. Ye shall not surely die...
Actually...DEATH has several meanings...
Dependant upon:
A Carnal Minds Understanding
AND
A Spiritual Understanding.
Death in the Carnal sense, means secession of physical Life.
Death in the Spiritual sense, also means secession of physical Life.
Death in the Spiritual sense, also means separation from God.
Death in the Spiritual sense, also means a Temporary separation from God.
Death in the Spiritual sense, also means a Permanent separation from God.
Damination means exclusively a Permanent separation from God.
Perish means to suffer a violent death.
A man WHO submits to experiencing a DEATH with Christ, is Crucified with Christ.
Crucifixion IS a Violent Death, Yet Jesus' BODY suffered that VIOLENT DEATH, in our stead....and a man does not suffer that SAME violent DEATH to Become Crucified WITH Christ.
And when a man submits to being Crucified With Christ...that man is submitting to being IN Christ...and FOREVER ALIVE...
thus that man IS NEVER Subjected to the Spiritual Death of Separation from God.....Nor Perishing...Nor Damnination.
God Bless,
Taken
If you go with the ideas of man, that at the moment of death we go to heaven, then what need is there of Christ.
This is the correct interpretation in my opinion.
The only thing I would add is this...
Whenever something is 'destroyed', there are always leftover bits and pieces.
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I recognize the ideas of men and never said I accept the ideas of men pertaining to Spiritual things.
DEAD things do not go to Heaven.
Human Bodies Do Not go to Heaven.
Saved souls and Quickened spirits Go to Heaven.
The need of Christ IS He is the Savior of souls and the Quickener of spirits.
Glory to God,
Taken
I see. Fair enough.
For me personally, I interpret the following verse as showing Body, Soul and Spirit as a Trinity and as separate distinct entities...
1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
I'm a big Trinity fan... so sue me lol.
I would like to offer my view on the word 'destroyed', based on not only Scripture but the world around us.
Whenever something is 'destroyed' it's never 100%. There is always something left over.
For example: When a building is destroyed, it doesn't magically disappear. There is rubble left over.
When an object is burned, generally speaking, ashes are left behind.
In Science, Energy is not destroyed but transferred...
"This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another"
Conservation of energy - Wikipedia
Thus, the point I'm making is that whatever gets thrown into the Lake of Fire has a 'remnant' piece leftover that God now has to do something with.
I believe that remnant piece is the Spirit (after Body and Soul are destroyed).
It's what God does with the leftovers that, in my humble opinion, is the Elephant in the Room no one wants to talk about.
Scripture says it gets transferred. In other words, it gets re-purposed...
Ecclesiastes 1:9
"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun"
We are caught in an endless cycle. A loop of time if you will. If One takes the above verse literally (as I do), then that means we were here before. We didn't 'cut the mustard'. We were re-purposed... just as Jesus teaches.
The only thing different this time around is that we found the escape route.
Scripture calls this re-purposing 'Mystery of Iniquity'.
Jesus is the way out. Amen.
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If I might be so bold to suggest another purpose?
KJV Malachi 4
God's Judgement on the Wicked
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
To suggest that God has another purpose is to suggest perhaps that He may resurrect those unsaved in some manner, which would mean we have a remnant of sin still extant in the universe. I do not believe that is a tenable position at all. God's purpose is to eradicate sin altogether, that affliction shall not arise a second time. To eradicate sin, sinners need to be gone completely. Even the ashes that remain (which reference in Malachi I believe to be metaphorical) will not even be a part of the new earth. Behold, I make all things new.
The bodily resurrection of Christ proclaims God’s triumph over the forces of evil, and its clear what will happen when He comes again.
Look at what is says...
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Acts 4:33
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
I never did, but hey... congratulations on putting words into my mouth I never said.
Great, keep going with the deception. That is NOT my position.
Of course.
Be careful what you wish for. We are ALL sinners here.
If you wish to be gone completely, that's none of my business.
By the way...
Your earlier post towards me was very insulting. If you disagree with what I said, then post verses to back it up as I do.
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