But you have to read all of Gods word and ask for the Holy Spirit to lead you, not take what someone tells you or tradition or even 'private interpretation' and take the wide road to eternal destruction.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
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Excellent. Thank you for this.
Christians are taught that the Lake of Fire is the 'end of the story'. This is not true.
The Lake of Fire comes to us from the Old Testament and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom...
Jeremiah 32:35
"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin"
The verse above gives us a clue as to what happens to those tossed into the Lake.
Does it say anything about "burning for all of eternity"? Nope.
Those tossed into the Lake of Fire pass *through* it. This is one of the biggest Keys to understanding what happens to the unsaved.
There is a step by step process that the Christian must follow and read through the entire Bible in order to piece it together.
That is the false idea of "Purgatory", you have to let that go, its unscriptural and leads to ruin and destrution.
Then why are you pushing their false tradition, here is something I posted on this...
In Egypt, its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead, along with celebration of prayer and other services for the soul of the dead. They had elaborate ceremonies to prepare the dead as we see with the pharaohs for their next life, constructing massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the dead would use. The pagan Egyptian belief was when the body died, parts of its soul known as ka (body double) and the ba (personality) would go to the Kingdom of the Dead.
According to Herodotus, eventually the Greeks adopted from the Egyptians the belief in the immortality of the soul. He wrote: The Egyptians also were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal . . . This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own. The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul. Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato.......
In Greece the ideas picked up from the Egyptians by their mercenary's and philosophers who came into contact with them, was spread through the Greek mystery religions. Plato, speaking of the future judgment of the dead, holds out the hope of final deliverance for all, but maintains that, of "those who are judged," some must first "proceed to a subterranean place of judgment, where they shall sustain the punishment they have deserved." The ancient Greeks sacrificed on the thirteenth day (after death) to Mercury as the conductor of the dead, they also had sacrifice which, according to Plato, "was offered for the living and the dead, and was supposed to free them from all the evils to which the wicked are liable when they have left this world.
In ancient Rome, the pagan priests also picked up these ideas, but as a belief in the early church it was not immediately picked up. From earliest times Greek religious beliefs were a strong influence in Italy, and the Graeco-Roman world was essentially one in its religious and philosophic views of the afterlife. There was no mention of the doctrine during the first two centuries of the church, it has no basis in scripture, the apostles did not teach it, nor did Christ.
In all pagan religions you will find a similar description of a place after death where everyone can be absolved of their sin, not in any way connected to what the Bible says. The ideas which come from purgatory is purely pagan, and in no way from scripture as those who die in Christ no purgatory is or can be needed as it teaches that Christs blood cleanseth true believers from all sin, not fires of Hell or Hades. Scripture clearly teaches that immortality is not an innate human possession, but a conditional gift of eternal life given to believers at the resurrection.
In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture or worse paying to cleanse a dead person of sin as a way to heaven. Scripture leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The Roman church was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent tried to tie it to the apocryphal books not part of the canon of Scripture. These were a collection of uninspired books by writers influenced by the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul, prayer for the dead, and denial of the resurrection, who put these teachings what in what was known as the Apocrypha. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures and it was rejected outright in 90 A.D. at the Council of Jamnia (Jabneh). Clearly they saw the danger as it was obviously pagan myths and beliefs mixed into these apocryphal books and they clearly saw that God did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books.
So where do they go next?
They go to an entity called Moloch.
The Christian must now spend a great deal of time to understand who and what Moloch is to figure out what happens next to the unsaved.
The Truth may be too much for some here...
The Bible does not teach that the Soul is immortal, however...
Scripture does teach that the Spirit is immortal.
Show me one verse that shows the Spirit being destroyed.
OK Hobie. I will take a break from this thread.
I don't wish to upset you.
I will leave you with these verses...
Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
and...
Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"
Long story short, the verses are literal. Children... that means ALL OF US HERE... came from Hell.
Hell is a parable for the 'pit' from which we are born. We were all sent to the Lake at one time.
We came back.
God gave us another chance. Those with hatred in their Hearts will never admit to this.
Those with Love in their Hearts will see this Great Truth and pass the test. Good luck everyone.
I don't wish to upset you.
I will leave you with these verses...
Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
and...
Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"
Long story short, the verses are literal. Children... that means ALL OF US HERE... came from Hell.
Hell is a parable for the 'pit' from which we are born. We were all sent to the Lake at one time.
We came back.
God gave us another chance. Those with hatred in their Hearts will never admit to this.
Those with Love in their Hearts will see this Great Truth and pass the test. Good luck everyone.
Lets go over scripture and gain understanding, not just try to shoehorn ideas of man..
So lets look at what is meant by spirit and soul:
Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?
If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!
If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.
Soul (Nephesh)
To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.
The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.
The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.
Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.
So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.
The living creature who sins…
The person who sins…
The individual who sins…
The Spirit (Ruach)
On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.
For example
Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.
Genesis 7:15
Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.
Psalm 104:29
When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.
When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7
Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.
Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.
John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.
Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.
English Name | Hebrew Name
The Spirit of God | Ruach Elohim
The Spirit of the Lord | Ruach Adonai
The Holy Spirit | Ruach Hakkodesh
The Spirit of the Lord God | Ruach Adonai Elohim
The Spirit of God | Ruach-El
Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself.
reformed1689
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Helen
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As I just said to someone else...you are free to believe what and how you like...nevertheless it does not make what you believe the truth.
Every done a original meaning word study on.. Eternal,... everlasting,..ever and ever, .. eon, ...ages etc etc
Helen
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Abraham's bosom is not Heaven!!
Therefore "hell" is not the lake of fire...
As judgement day is not yet here....this is not about the final judgment of mankind.
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Helen
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Hello there
Interesting...then why , when it talks about 'an appointed time' ...and an appointed Day... do people talk so freely about - " People being in heaven" and " people being in hell"...as if the appointed time , day and hour is past not ahead for all?
As I see it...NO ONE has yet be 'sent to heaven' or 'sent to hell'....the time is not yet come...
Helen
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![thumbup1[1].gif](https://www.christianityboard.com/data/attachments/34/34639-3c6b26485b350618916838a7a8f4387e.jpg "thumbup1[1].gif"){kind=small}
Where did you get the concept that Abraham resurrected anyone? Again, Jesus did not use real names in parables; the story of the rich man is a real account with real names. Lastly, the rich man did not go to hell because of his money, but because he ignored the Scriptures and lived his life as he wanted.
Luke 16
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Helen
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Well I was 'with you ' for a while there....but now you seem to be complicating something which is simple...and building a doctrine of complicated steps and hoops!!
When the simplicity of Christ goes out of the window...it is usually because of the pride of man.
We all all aware now that you are here on this forum as a platform to teach us something ...with all your graphs and coloured pictures ...obviously out of your wealth of files and previous teachings....
You may have a platform for a short while , and our Mods are not heavy handed or controlling, they are great...but soon or later when members start hitting the 'report' button your days may be numbered.
Maybe drop the graphics and 'just post' like any regular member...you may last longer here.
Take care...H
ScottA
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Time is created. Everything with God (or without) is eternal. The scriptural description is true.
Again, there are those who will be relegated to everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The nature of this punishment is declared in the following verses:
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
As for the contention that everlasting does not mean for ever (because the Greek word aion is used); it does not bode well for our interpretation of such verses as the following:
Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Here Jesus is promising that you will live for precisely one aion; and then perish: if the interpretation of everlasting that is applied, be applied to this verse.
And if we are going to be honest with the holy scriptures, we should apply definitions across the board.
The gospel itself is therefore compromised by the contentions of Universalism; it would end up being that everyone in the Universe will simply live for a very long time; but that all will eventually perish.
Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The nature of this punishment is declared in the following verses:
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
As for the contention that everlasting does not mean for ever (because the Greek word aion is used); it does not bode well for our interpretation of such verses as the following:
Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Here Jesus is promising that you will live for precisely one aion; and then perish: if the interpretation of everlasting that is applied, be applied to this verse.
And if we are going to be honest with the holy scriptures, we should apply definitions across the board.
The gospel itself is therefore compromised by the contentions of Universalism; it would end up being that everyone in the Universe will simply live for a very long time; but that all will eventually perish.
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