Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[Taken]

Jesus tells a story about a rich man in "hades" who is in torment. It is said he is in torment from the fire. Go figure. It looks a lot like how the Jews describe gehenna to me who say gehenna and Paradise are next door to each other.

Regardless of the language...
Hebrew, Greek, English...Scripture reveals;

There IS a PLACE IN the Center of the Earth, reserved for UNSAVED living souls to go and Be Separated From God....AND WAIT (in extreme discomfort; torture).....UNTIL
Judgement Day.

Human men, have talked about this Place, tried to Imagine this Place, and used their Native Language to Describe this Place.

Gehenna is a description of what men...
Did see and compared it to Hell.

Men throwing their LIVING Children INTO blazing fires, (burning them to Death) IN the VALLEY of Hinnom on the edge of Jerusalem was a mans VISUAL compared to what they invisioned Hell would be Like.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Base12]

Or do the wicked perish instead?

See?

This is why you folks will keep debating this over and over and never see the Light.

The correct answer is not even a choice!

 

[07-07-07]

Or do the wicked perish instead?

Jesus answered the question.

Luke 16
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Hobie]

Jesus tells a story about a rich man in "hades" who is in torment. It is said he is in torment from the fire. Go figure. It looks a lot like how the Jews describe gehenna to me who say gehenna and Paradise are next door to each other.

Well lets go over the story as it was clearly a parable. Josephus left on record a “Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades,” which illuminates Jesus’ Dives and Lazarus story. Not only does it parallel Christ’s narration, showing that it was based on a current Jewish belief, but it amplifies and explains the contemporary concepts and expressions of the Jews, frankly drawn from Platonism. So it had been spread by those following Hellenistic ideas as it was prevalent at this time.

Jesus used parables to unfold truth to the people. He placed a simple story alongside a profound truth, and the hard to understand was illumined by the simple. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of a group of parables addressed particularly to the Pharisees. The fact that Jesus talked with what they considered outcasts and sinners drew sharp censure from the scribes and Pharisees. They murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them" (Luke 15:2). Their attitude became the occasion for a group of moving stories, one of which is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The first of these is the story of the lost sheep, followed by that of the lost coin, next of the lost son, and then of the unjust steward.

While each of these stories emphasizes vital points of our Lord's gospel, the underlying lesson of each is the same. Coming to the climax of the story of the lost sheep, our Lord says, "Even so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7) In this parable we see Christ finishes with, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 15:31)

Here is a good explanation..."Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken literally. For example, we do not all have wool and four feet like sheep. We are not metal like a silver coin. The question in each parable is what the great moral lessons are. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson Jesus is trying to teach.

Let’s assume that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal story. Do people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? Can those in heaven see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable? Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

To take the parable literally is to create huge problems. Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends.

Why did Jesus use this story? What lessons was He trying to teach? The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom and eternal loss going to destruction.

Jesus used this story to teach three lessons.

1. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor at all.

2. The parable describes a great gulf fixed. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny.

3. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one rising from the dead."The rich man and Lazarus - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software

 

[07-07-07]

The story of the rich man in hell is not a parable; this is a real account given by Jesus because Jesus never used real names when speaking in parables. In the story of the rich man in hell, Jesus used real names, so it's a real account.

 

[Base12]

Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death.

Actually, Jesus taught the opposite.

 

[Hobie]

Regardless of the language...
Hebrew, Greek, English...Scripture reveals;

There IS a PLACE IN the Center of the Earth, reserved for UNSAVED living souls to go and Be Separated From God....AND WAIT (in extreme discomfort; torture).....UNTIL
Judgement Day.

Human men, have talked about this Place, tried to Imagine this Place, and used their Native Language to Describe this Place.

Gehenna is a description of what men...
Did see and compared it to Hell.

Men throwing their LIVING Children INTO blazing fires, (burning them to Death) IN the VALLEY of Hinnom on the edge of Jerusalem was a mans VISUAL compared to what they invisioned Hell would be Like.

Glory to God,
Taken

God never gave immortality to man, that is not scriptural. We need to read the scripture and understand. The wicked will not receive the truth, and certainly do not want to be with God, and will perish...

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
"8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The wicked will destroyed in the end like tares burned in the fire...

Matthew 13:39-40
"39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

They will receive the reward for their works at the end, they are not in hell with some pitchfork wielding devil....
Revelation 22:12
"12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

They will perish as they will be burned up and nothing will remain, just ashes.

Malachi 4:1-3
"1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

And the wicked do not burn forever, they will be consumed by the fire at the end and vanish like smoke....

Psalm 21:9
"9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them."

Psalm 37:10
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.."

Isaiah 1:28
“And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed”

They will receive the opposite of everlasting life and perish, or ceasing to exist....

John 3:16
"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[Hobie]

Take a look at what the fire of God did on Mt Carmel...

1 Kings 18:30-38

"30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down.
31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench."

I don't think there is any question it consumed everything down to the dust....

 

[Hobie]

The story of the rich man in hell is not a parable; this is a real account given by Jesus because Jesus never used real names when speaking in parables. In the story of the rich man in hell, Jesus used real names, so it's a real account.

So when you die, are you resurrected by father Abraham, of course not. That was a parable that Christ was using to teach a lesson, as the Jews all thought the rich were the ones who would be first and get the best places in heaven, and be foremost while the poor languished and were left out.

 

[Base12]

Abraham must have a large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there.

The Book of Revelation describes Abraham's Bosom in great detail...

Twenty Four Elders = Abraham's Ribs
Throne = Abraham's Heart
Seven Spirits = Abraham's Lungs
Lamb = Abraham's Blood

Mhp-0832

• Base12
• Dec 29, 2019

Here is a picture of those in Abraham's Bosom waiting for their Glorified Bodies...

Revelation 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

They are resting in his Bosom...

Revelation 6:11
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"

 

[Hobie]

The Book of Revelation describes Abraham's Bosom in great detail...

Twenty Four Elders = Abraham's Ribs
Throne = Abraham's Heart
Seven Spirits = Abraham's Lungs
Lamb = Abraham's Blood

Mhp-0832

• Base12
• Dec 29, 2019

Here is a picture of those in Abraham's Bosom waiting for their Glorified Bodies...

Revelation 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

They are resting in his Bosom...

Revelation 6:11
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"

I don't know where that idea comes from, not scriptural. The wicked perish, look at Gods word..:
Malachi 4:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
"1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

The wicked receive their recompense in the Lake of Fire, and they “will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," and we see who says it, "saith the Lord of hosts". All are punished according to their works or deeds.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
"14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

In the Lake of Fire the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch. Satan the root, and those who follow him, the wicked, are the branches. The full penalty of the law has been applied to the transgressors and the demands of justice have been met. The saints and the universe sees and declares that God is just in all He does, including the end of sin and sinners, and the earth is at rest.

Isaiah 14:7 King James Version (KJV)
“The whole earth is at rest and quiet: they [the righteous saints] break forth into singing.”

And the apostasy and corruption from Babylon is destroyed, sin is no more, and the saints will rejoice:

Revelation 19:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
"1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever."

God will take sin and sinners completely out of existence.

 

[Base12]

I don't know where that idea comes from, not scriptural.

Sure it is.

Human Anatomy is described in great detail all over the Bible...

Mhp-0707

• Base12
• Dec 28, 2019

Mhp-0709

• Base12
• Dec 28, 2019

The wicked perish, look at Gods word..:

The Body and Soul can perish...

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

...but never the Spirit. The Spirit always returns to God...

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

God can even give that Spirit another chance...

Mhp-0703

• Base12
• Dec 29, 2019

 

[Hobie]

But that has nothing to do with Abraham, that's a bit of a stretch..

 

[Base12]

God can even give that Spirit another chance...

Hence the Third Choice Satan does not want anybody to talk about.

I dare anyone to prove me wrong on this...

That is if I'm not censored myself.

 

[Base12]

But that has nothing to do with Abraham, that's a bit of a stretch..

It's not a stretch at all.

We all become Abraham's Seed..

Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise"

The saved in Abraham's Bosom also represent his Seed.

Sarah, Abraham's Wife, comes down from Heaven to join with the Seed...

Revelation 21:2
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband"

New Jerusalem becomes the Mother of us All...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"

 

[Base12]

The Book of Revelation Marriage Supper is a picture of Abraham and Sarah becoming One.

Abraham represents the Father of course.

We are their Heavenly Offspring.

This is Sarah BTW...

Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread.

 

[Hobie]

Hence the Third Choice Satan does not want anybody to talk about.

I dare anyone to prove me wrong on this...

That is if I'm not censored myself.

There is in scripture were it declares that God has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth. There is no other choice or way or path, sin comes to an end along with sinners....

Acts 17:31 King James Version (KJV)
"31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

 

[Hobie]

The Book of Revelation Marriage Supper is a picture of Abraham and Sarah becoming One.

Abraham represents the Father of course.

We are their Heavenly Offspring.

This is Sarah BTW...

Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread.

Be careful not to get banned with this idea, its way off....my friend.

 

[Hobie]

If you read in the book of Revelation 20:13-14 it says 'death is cast into the Lake of Fire', and you can't hurt death or burn it, fire here is a figurative symbol of complete destruction.... something completely gone, forever. And that's exactly what the next chapter, in Revelation 21:4, states about death... It will be "no more".

Revelation 21:4 King James Version (KJV)
"4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

 

[Base12]

Be careful not to get banned with this idea, its way off course....

It's OK.

If there is one thing I've learned about Forums is that Truth is usually too much to bear for folks, and the messenger is killed.

Kind of like this...

Acts 7:59
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"