Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

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O'Darby

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@O'Darby
Thanks for responding to the idiots I have on IGNORE. - LOL

/
I actually don't have anyone on Ignore, although a couple have sternly advised me that I've earned the honor. (Isn't telling me I'm on Ignore by definition not Ignoring me?)

The lads have, however, given me fodder for yet another blog entry: What does it mean to take this stuff "seriously"?

A slightly different perspective is not just that a gift isn't a gift if it must be earned but whether it's really a gift if the consequence of not accepting it are hideous. "Hey, kids, I just bought everyone a new Ford F-150. Get down to the dealer and pick it up or I'll have to slit your throats with this machete." Thanks, Dad!

Not a perfect analogy, but it makes a point.

If the Gospel were, in fact, the Good News, one might think the actual message would be more like this: God through Christ has redeemed the world - all of you slobs, Hindus and atheists alike. It's done. You don't have to do anything. Not accept, believe, convert - nothing. The kingdom is within you and among you. Now tell everyone else and start living like it's true.

That would be the genuine Good News and may, in fact, be the actual Gospel message. But we can't live with THAT, for crying out loud, so we turn it into the Highly Conditional Good News for Some and Ghastly News for Most. That's why atheists always complain that the God of Christianity wouldn't even qualify as a model human father.
 
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amigo de christo

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which scripture do you want to stick to amigo?
ALL .
Let us all understand something very simple .
From every warning , every Word GOD , JESUS , and the prophets and later apostels said
who were INSPIRED BY GOD , IS GOOD FOR OUR SOUL .
Let us learn to rightly divide , which means let us learn IF GOD INSPIRED IT , ITS TRUE , ITS TRUTH and its meant
for GOOD unto those who take heed unto it .
I cannot count the number of doctrines which contain partial truths and yet
and yet while truths are present THE LIE and the LIAR , the father of all lies who feeds the flesh of men
IS BEHIND IT .
In other words , WE GOTTA TAKE EVERY WORD JESUS SAID , as well as later wrote the apostels AS TRUTH .
We must truly take GOD at HIS WORD , HIS WORDS .
OH YEAH ITS BIBLE TIME .
for example if we knew and learned the truth we would easily have discerned when men and their doctrines came to lead us astray .
example . HOW MANY do you know that HAIL the hitler of the prosperity gospel .
and yet had we loved GOD , had we been in scripture we would have and could have seen
that though they spoke partial truth , they led and lead us astray from the simplicty in CHRIST .
for though it be not a sin to be blessed with riches , IT BE A SIN to desire to want to be rich .
to heap up and to store up and not rather to simply walk as DID JESUS
WHO I KNOW DID NOT live as do these prosperity leaders .
I mean THEY SEEM TO have much money , even planes and etc
and yet their flocks . TAKE HEED NOW , their flocks , those who sit under them
In no way live in luxury as do THEIR LEADERS . AND YET not only DID JESUS preach againt such
I NEVER SEEMED TO SEE HIM being carried in chariots , with great clothing , while his own walked .
I CAN DO THIS ALL DAY with so many other doctrines of men , IT WOULD MAKE YOUR HEAD SPIN .
For example
DID WE EVER SEE JESUS , and later the apostels
over look and even accept the sins of others . OOPS . WE DID NOT
did we see JESUS preaching COMMON GROUND with unbelievers and try and find a way to get along .
DID WE SEE the apostels doing any such thing .
OR
OR
DID we see the apostels having men to bow before them , to kiss their rings
to call them most holy father or reverand .
DID WE SEE ................................................................................
The problem is many CANNOT SEE and have chosen a love that cometh of the world
to fullfill the desires of what makes it best , easiest for THEM . WHAT SERVES them and yet offers up the idea they are saved .
DID WE SEE JESUS saying to the unbelieving jews , ITS OKAY , we all believe in the same GOD , just do some good works .
NOPE .
DID WE SEE GOD ever once say to the jews or to any , GO AHEAD and FIND COMMON GROUND
with the inhabitants of the land and their gods , cause they worship ME TOO in a different way .
YOU ALLL been DUPED .
DID we SEE where GOD , CHRIST , any prophet or any apostle
ever said go into the world and preach we serve the same GOD , find common ground with the unbeleivers
And DONT talk bout the dire neeed to believe on JESUS , just love em to GOD , we all worship the same GOD
in different ways as long as we love one another . HELL NO we didnt . THE DEVIL does this .
Yeah , you heard me right . TIS THE DEVIL feeding the flesh of men whose desires are of the flesh .
DID WE EVER SEE GOD say , MAN can lie with man so long as they be married .
DID WE EVER SEE GOD say OH its okay if a boy thinks he be a girl and etc .
DID WE EVER SEE GOD TRY and sell that WHICH REJECTS HIS WORDS , HIS TRUTH , as LOVE . HECK NOT WE DIDNT
BUT THE DEVIL WILL DO THIS .
DID we think that JESUS contradicts GOD .
DO WE THINK , oh boy , DO WE THINK that JESUS , that the LOVE OF GOD
contradicts HIS WORDS . WE GOTTY PROBLEMS . GOD , JESUS nor any apostel WOULD HOLD UP A RAINBOW flag
to honor SIN , to overlook error , to preach a love that came of the world TO DECIEVE all who were OF THE WORLD
and REJECTED THE TRUE CHRIST . CAUSE many do that . many do that . oh boy DO MANY DO THAT . BIBLE TIME .
i know it angers folks to see me constantly saying BIBLE TIME . OH WELL . ITS BIBLE TIME .
 
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Marvelloustime

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ALL .
Let us all understand something very simple .
From every warning , every Word GOD , JESUS , and the prophets and later apostels said
who were INSPIRED BY GOD , IS GOOD FOR OUR SOUL .
Let us learn to rightly divide , which means let us learn IF GOD INSPIRED IT , ITS TRUE , ITS TRUTH and its meant
for GOOD unto those who take heed unto it .
I cannot count the number of doctrines which contain partial truths and yet
and yet while truths are present THE LIE and the LIAR , the father of all lies who feeds the flesh of men
IS BEHIND IT .
In other words , WE GOTTA TAKE EVERY WORD JESUS SAID , as well as later wrote the apostels AS TRUTH .
We must truly take GOD at HIS WORD , HIS WORDS .
OH YEAH ITS BIBLE TIME .
for example if we knew and learned the truth we would easily have discerned when men and their doctrines came to lead us astray .
example . HOW MANY do you know that HAIL the hitler of the prosperity gospel .
and yet had we loved GOD , had we been in scripture we would have and could have seen
that though they spoke partial truth , they led and lead us astray from the simplicty in CHRIST .
for though it be not a sin to be blessed with riches , IT BE A SIN to desire to want to be rich .
to heap up and to store up and not rather to simply walk as DID JESUS
WHO I KNOW DID NOT live as do these prosperity leaders .
I mean THEY SEEM TO have much money , even planes and etc
and yet their flocks . TAKE HEED NOW , their flocks , those who sit under them
In no way live in luxury as do THEIR LEADERS . AND YET not only DID JESUS preach againt such
I NEVER SEEMED TO SEE HIM being carried in chariots , with great clothing , while his own walked .
I CAN DO THIS ALL DAY with so many other doctrines of men , IT WOULD MAKE YOUR HEAD SPIN .
For example
DID WE EVER SEE JESUS , and later the apostels
over look and even accept the sins of others . OOPS . WE DID NOT
did we see JESUS preaching COMMON GROUND with unbelievers and try and find a way to get along .
DID WE SEE the apostels doing any such thing .
OR
OR
DID we see the apostels having men to bow before them , to kiss their rings
to call them most holy father or reverand .
DID WE SEE ................................................................................
The problem is many CANNOT SEE and have chosen a love that cometh of the world
to fullfill the desires of what makes it best , easiest for THEM . WHAT SERVES them and yet offers up the idea they are saved .
DID WE SEE JESUS saying to the unbelieving jews , ITS OKAY , we all believe in the same GOD , just do some good works .
NOPE .
DID WE SEE GOD ever once say to the jews or to any , GO AHEAD and FIND COMMON GROUND
with the inhabitants of the land and their gods , cause they worship ME TOO in a different way .
YOU ALLL been DUPED .
DID we SEE where GOD , CHRIST , any prophet or any apostle
ever said go into the world and preach we serve the same GOD , find common ground with the unbeleivers
And DONT talk bout the dire neeed to believe on JESUS , just love em to GOD , we all worship the same GOD
in different ways as long as we love one another . HELL NO we didnt . THE DEVIL does this .
Yeah , you heard me right . TIS THE DEVIL feeding the flesh of men whose desires are of the flesh .
DID WE EVER SEE GOD say , MAN can lie with man so long as they be married .
DID WE EVER SEE GOD say OH its okay if a boy thinks he be a girl and etc .
DID WE EVER SEE GOD TRY and sell that WHICH REJECTS HIS WORDS , HIS TRUTH , as LOVE . HECK NOT WE DIDNT
BUT THE DEVIL WILL DO THIS .
DID we think that JESUS contradicts GOD .
DO WE THINK , oh boy , DO WE THINK that JESUS , that the LOVE OF GOD
contradicts HIS WORDS . WE GOTTY PROBLEMS . GOD , JESUS nor any apostel WOULD HOLD UP A RAINBOW flag
to honor SIN , to overlook error , to preach a love that came of the world TO DECIEVE all who were OF THE WORLD
and REJECTED THE TRUE CHRIST . CAUSE many do that . many do that . oh boy DO MANY DO THAT . BIBLE TIME .
i know it angers folks to see me constantly saying BIBLE TIME . OH WELL . ITS BIBLE TIME .
It’s Bible time indeed. Praise the Lord.
 

St. SteVen

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A slightly different perspective is not just that a gift isn't a gift if it must be earned but whether it's really a gift if the consequence of not accepting it are hideous. "Hey, kids, I just bought everyone a new Ford F-150. Get down to the dealer and pick it up or I'll have to slit your throats with this machete." Thanks, Dad!

Not a perfect analogy, but it makes a point.
Yes. That's essentially what I am saying. No loving father would do it that way.

If the Gospel were, in fact, the Good News, one might think the actual message would be more like this: God through Christ has redeemed the world - all of you slobs, Hindus and atheists alike. It's done. You don't have to do anything. Not accept, believe, convert - nothing. The kingdom is within you and among you. Now tell everyone else and start living like it's true.
That's essentially Christian Universalism in a crude form. - LOL

That would be the genuine Good News and may, in fact, be the actual Gospel message. But we can't live with THAT, for crying out loud, so we turn it into the Highly Conditional Good News for Some and Ghastly News for Most. That's why atheists always complain that the God of Christianity wouldn't even qualify as a model human father.
The atheists make a good point.
I have often asked why Christian think God holds us to a higher standard of conduct than himself.
If we were to be more godly, what would that look like? Incinerating your enemies? Yikes!

/
 

amigo de christo

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Ignore is a coward's refuge.
So what does it mean if a man is one of the most ignored . most folks are fast to put me on ignore .
And yet they will debate , debate , debate even those who call them names and etc . and yet i do not .
IS there a reason why i am so quickly put on ignore . THERE IS . BIBLICAL TRUTH cannot be overcome
and thus ITS IGNORE that man who does so . Beleive me i am very used to this . it happens often and on every site i go too .
I can only pray for them . BUT THIS LAMB WONT BUDGE FROM THE BIBLE . not gonna do it . and expose
the doctrines of men , I WILL DO . NO matter the cost to me for doing so .
 

ScottA

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Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.

Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

A gift is only a gift, if received. If it is not received, it is just an offer.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.
A gift is only a gift, if received. If it is not received, it is just an offer.
An offer sounds like an exchange to me. Not a gift.
But perhaps we are both guilty of semantics to a degree. ???

A gift could be rejected, I suppose.
Of course, salvation isn't a gift in the physical sense.

But biblically speaking, I think salvation is only a gift in the sense that you can't earn it.
Other than that, there's nothing free about it. Very expensive, actually.

Luke 14:33 NIV
In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

/
 

ScottA

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St. SteVen said:
What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

An offer sounds like an exchange to me. Not a gift.
But perhaps we are both guilty of semantics to a degree. ???

A gift could be rejected, I suppose.
Of course, salvation isn't a gift in the physical sense.

But biblically speaking, I think salvation is only a gift in the sense that you can't earn it.
Other than that, there's nothing free about it. Very expensive, actually.

/

I should think the semantical definition of what a "gift" is, is defined by Him who gives it, and not by him who rejects it. Indeed, to those who reject the gift of salvation, it would not be defined the same. But who are they to say? ;)
 

St. SteVen

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I should think the semantical definition of what a "gift" is, is defined by Him who gives it, and not by him who rejects it. Indeed, to those who reject the gift of salvation, it would not be defined the same. But who are they to say? ;)
You seem to be on both sides of the definition. - LOL
Above you say, "... a "gift" is, is defined by Him who gives it, and not by him who rejects it."
Before that you wrote:

ScottA said:
A gift is only a gift, if received. If it is not received, it is just an offer.

/
 

Duck Muscles

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If we proceed in consideration of the original question, and concur with teachings that assure us God is eternally knowledgeable regarding his creation,and is divinely sovereign in that realm, I submit the answer would have to be , no.

God's plan of salvation could not have proceeded as it did if God conceded it would be nullified or augmented by those lesser beings God had intended it for.
 
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ScottA

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You seem to be on both sides of the definition. - LOL
Above you say, "... a "gift" is, is defined by Him who gives it, and not by him who rejects it."
Before that you wrote:

ScottA said:
A gift is only a gift, if received. If it is not received, it is just an offer.

/

That's because there are two sides to the salvation gift-versus-offer equation.
 
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MA2444

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St. SteVen said:
What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

An offer sounds like an exchange to me. Not a gift.
But perhaps we are both guilty of semantics to a degree. ???

A gift could be rejected, I suppose.
Of course, salvation isn't a gift in the physical sense.

But biblically speaking, I think salvation is only a gift in the sense that you can't earn it.
Other than that, there's nothing free about it. Very expensive, actually.

/

Havent you ever heard of a gift exchange before? The Lord promised you a gift but you havent seen it manifest yet, so you have doubts to it being free because He also wants you to work for Him?

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:.../KJV

12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God..../NLT

I think the NLT vesion is a better translation above. It is an offer. He has set before you life and death, therefore choose life. But in light of this verse I thik we should ask ourselves, did we receive eternal salvation when we said the sinners prayer and asked the Lord into our life? Everyone says yes but I'm not so sure. The scripture says that those people who receive Him have now been given the power to become the chidren of God..

In other words, we are not yet the children of God but that happens later. (prolly with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?) so we say the prayer and now get an oppurtunity to Audition for in a manner of speaking. Like try-outs to see if you can make the team.

But if you stay home and say I wont pay anything to try out and wont work or try to do good for the team or show up for the training sessions...then what good are you for the team? You have to receive the gift. You have to pick it up and carry it with you, show up for training exercises, quiet times, reading times, and all sorts of little stuff! (But this is what it takes to receive this gift.

This is the parable of the Talents. How much are 5 talents worth in the Bible days? Some calculate the talent in the parables to be equivalent to 20 years of wages for the common worker. Other scholars estimate more conservatively, valuing the New Testament talent somewhere between $1,000 to $30,000 dollars today.
He left 5 Talents with one man.
3 Talents with another man. 1 Talent with a third man.

You gave your Life to the Lord and His team upon signup, and so you are an employee. You start at the bottom most times, lol! Me too! But the Lord had to go out of town for somewhat over 2000 years and He thought, hmm, you might need some talent when I'm gone. Some got 5 talents, some got 3, some got 1. What's the point? We got no instruction with it, how to invest it. Ok, so we did in the Bible!

You've been given skills and tools and even the oppurtunites to go and do well for your family. Now you signed up for the Service, in God's Kingdom. Will you be a profitable employee or a useless employee? Would you want to show your teammates that you are an asset to the team?

You said, hey I dont want to get knocked around on the field or it isnt my version of being on the team. That might be ok to be on the team without being a team player? They do need Waterboys!

Scripture says to build up your treasures in Heaven. You do that by being a team player. Being a...Profitable Servant. I dont want to be the plumber again, in Heaven. I dont want to be above anyone or compete with anyone, but I want a better position in heaven than I did here. As long as I'm not the least in the kingdom of God is my goal!

I dont want to stand there on that day and have Jesus say, who are you? Oh yeah, we shook hands in church one time and then I never heard from you again so didnt get to know you...I'd rather hear Him say, oh yeah, you were that one who bigged me all the time! I know you!

I dont want to sit in the mail room. I dont want to have to dig up the sewer. So even if I were given 1 talent I want to show a profit for the Lord and show myself to be a valuable asset for the team. The I will get a better position in Heaven. If you say, it's not a free gift if I have to get up off the couch, then, are you burying your Talent? Why wouldn't you want to do good for the Team? You would show up alone? I want to be able to say, Lord, look who I brought with me!

I dont understand your line of reasoning about this topic. It seems backwards.
 

MA2444

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That's because there are two sides to the salvation gift versus offer equation.

There might be even more sides than that! Scripture talks about ankle deep, shin deep, waist deep, shoulder deep and swimming over your head!

And you dont get to go into the deep end until you show that you can swim. We all have a race to run. The gift is free but moving up is done though effort, faith, walking in it.

It puzzles a little but perhaps it becoming clearer. Scripture describes the Fathers house. It's like, 1500 miles wide X 1500 miles long X 1500 miles tall, right? (That's prolly enough room for everyone if they climb that high!), but it also talks about people who live outside also. I don't think scripture is exactly clear on who lives where, but it stands to reason that those who live outside are like, the commoners and the ones insde are the royalty? (They have a better position in heaven, more amenities perhaps?) All of them have eternal life, but some have it better than others.

I want to have a nice wardrobe in heaven. The fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. That's us. Living in town with a nice wardrobe sounds better than living on the outskirts in a shack.

What's the difference between Anointings and Mantles? There are greater aniontings which come to some after a success somewhere, a breakthrough. I hear them talk about putting on Mantles and stuff and it sort of sounds like sargeant stripes or something? To more who is given, more is required. So climbing the mountain of God get's more difficult the higher you get. And the higher you are if you slip and fall is the more damage that you have done by that fall. Get back up!
 
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MA2444

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You seem to be on both sides of the definition. - LOL
Above you say, "... a "gift" is, is defined by Him who gives it, and not by him who rejects it."
Before that you wrote:

ScottA said:
A gift is only a gift, if received. If it is not received, it is just an offer.

/

Do you mean that you wont pick up the gift and take it home with you? Wont use it tomorrow? Why not? Isn't that burying your Talent? If yes than why yes, if not why not?