Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Oh what a shame I wasn’t there at the time you were dancing your jig. I’d have been wheelchair jigging and praising the Lord with you. Two nuts in one shell. Let the Lord be praised @amigo de christo
Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Just a general observation if I may.
The Reformation handed us a few slogans that we typically defend. I do it myself. But the gospel is a bit more nuanced than our slogans would seem to indicate. And so I commend you for taking the time to explore them and I thank you for inviting us to participate.
What does it mean to be "saved"? How does one get saved? During the days of the American evangelists, getting "saved" amounted to a sinners prayer and a passing grade on a true/false test. Faith? I already did that, what's left to do?
Søren Kierkegaard lived in Denmark during a time when those in Denmark believed that citizenship in Denmark automatically made someone a Christian, and that "faith" was something a child did during confirmation. He challenged his countrymen to rethink their shallow concept of faith, whether faith was more than a one-time confession; rather faith is a walk with the Lord and the walk of faith itself defined a believer's existence.
In America today, faith and patriotism have become so closely associated with each other, one can barely squeeze a credit card between them. I don't think we Americans believe that patriotic citizenship automatically qualifies one as a Christian, but I wonder where this is headed. How many of us are praying that Biden will be saved? (1 Timothy)
Anyway, sorry for meandering.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Two things:
First, the fact that salvation is freely given to those who want it doesn't necessitate universalism. The Bible teaches that God chooses whom to save. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." Second, since salvation is a free gift, then obedience is not a condition for salvation, it remains both a consequence and an obligation of salvation.
In other words, those whom God is saving will freely obey him because of the indwelling of the spirit.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
James is not suggesting that we have two requirements for salvation: faith + obedience. James would agree with Paul that we are justified by faith apart from works. James is focused on the claims of those who say they have faith.
Faith is a spiritual matter, hidden within the heart of every believer. As such it remains invisible to everyone else. James is dealing with those who claim to have faith, but James sees no evidence that might corroborate that claim.
Suppose a man told me that a bomb is going to destroy our city next month. But what if the man made no effort to leave town? Does he really believe what he said? Does he make any effort to remove himself and his family from danger?
James might question the man's belief in impending danger if he takes no effort to protect himself. People can claim to believe all kinds of things but the question remains, "What impact does his belief have on his life?"
James isn't talking about obedience. His point is completely different. He is not talking about religious devotion, sacramentalism, rites, tithing, church attendance, confession, eucharist, genuflexion, smoke, baptism, or anything of that sort. James is talking about the "everyday" actions we take based on the teachings of Jesus that we affirm.
Jesus tells me, for instance, that I should love my brother, (even love my enemies.) But what if James followed me around for a week? What would he see? How do I treat my wife? How do I treat my kids? How do I treat the little kids in the neighborhood? Do I pay my rent on time? Do I deal honestly with my clients? Do I steal from my employer? Do I flirt with other women? If someone in my church needs a bit of cash to get through the month, do I give him some cash?
James is not talking about obeying the direct commandments of God, though that is important too. James is talking about the "everyday" ways in which I demonstrate my trust in God. He doesn't need to tell me what to do. I should already know what to do.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Faith 'results' in obedience to Jesus' New Testament commandments which are summed up in love. (John 13:34; Romans 13:8-10) This is the fruit of faith (Matthew 7:17; 12:33) but not the very essence of faith. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not defined as multiple acts of obedience/works.
Faith that 'remains alone' apart from obedience IS NOT (authentic) FAITH. (James 2:14) That is a bare profession of faith.
That is slander. My faith trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (which is saving faith - Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and has not remained alone - "apart from obedience/works" so your false accusation is unmerited. The big difference between you and me is I am trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and you are trusting in works for salvation. Mere mental assent belief in Jesus which falls short of trusting exclusively in Him for salvation is not saving faith no matter how much so-called obedience that you attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. Refusing to believe the gospel is disobedience which condemns. (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
I have read 1 John 3:23-24 numerous times. By placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we have obeyed God's commandment to believe in Him. Trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is believing in Him. (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 16:31) Yet you continue to believe in/have faith in/trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Works-righteousness.
Obeying the commandment to believe in Jesus is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. That is the fictional idea in your confused mind. So, your definition of faith "is" works. Just like Roman Catholics, you basically make no distinction between faith AND works. You simply wrap BOTH faith AND works up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. I was saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone "apart from the merit of works" (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet my faith has not remained alone "apart from the presence of works." (James 2:24) You have the cart before the horse because you teach salvation by works. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was just as confused about faith and works as you are now.
I see a play on words here by Jesus in John 6:29 when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else it would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."
Now believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through believing, Christ is the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Good works which "follow" believing unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. According to your false gospel it's saved through faith AND works, in contradiction to saved through faith, NOT works.
Faith that 'results' in producing no obedience demonstrates that it's dead. Does faith produce obedience in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith? Does a fruit tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree? Think about it.
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
More slander. I have already stated multiple times that we are not saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone ' "barren of works" (James 2:14) yet you continue to falsely accuse me otherwise. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10) Is bearing false witness your idea of obeying Jesus' New Testament gospel commandments?
ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) No amount of obedience/works could wipe that away and earn our way into heaven. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) is a doctrine from the devil. Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which if followed by good works (Ephesians 2:10) is a doctrine from the Lord. Learn the difference because so far you have demonstrated that you DON'T understand the difference.
CONTINUED...
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, which demonstrates that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start.
I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church rose up in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry. The Roman Catholic church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility etc..
More slander. Where are these continued false accusations coming from? Your true colors are showing.
I NEVER once said that. You are demonstrating a loveless faith by continuing to slander me.
Define "keep." - I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
More slander. Show me where I said that? Where are these lies coming from? Your heart, which says a lot. (Luke 6:45)
Yet more slander which does not represent love. You are beginning to sound like another false accuser we read about in scripture. Who said I had a loveless belief apart from obedience? That is your false accusation.
1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. This love is not simply conjured up through the flesh.
Obedience to God's commandments as a believer is the demonstrative evidence of our love for God and is the fruit of salvation but not the means of obtaining salvation. Who is it that demonstrates obedience to God's commandments? Lost unbelievers or saved believers? There is the word "keeps" again. Those who keep His word demonstrate they are IN Him. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works demonstrates otherwise.
Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not obeying His commandments. (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Because you were water baptized? Because you have obeyed ALL of His commandments flawlessly? Because you attend the church of Christ? Because you have performed many wonderful works? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you have placed your faith in/are truly trusting in for salvation.
I NEVER said it did and that is not authentic faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)
An empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) that refuses to "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) God's commandments (1 John 2:4) is not authentic faith and is the doctrine of satan and is not the kind of faith that I teach saves. You are so determined to slander me that it's like you don't understand a word I say.
It's you who has been speaking lies and slandering me. Who is the father of that?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Where does God's word say that obeying God's commandments are conditions for receiving His grace? In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, which means we have already received His grace and are saved) if we keep His commandments. So, keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we already have come to know Him, received His grace and are saved, yet you put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works according to YOUR gospel.
How many conditions do you see in Ephesians 2:8,9 and in Romans 5:1-2 in regard to receiving God's grace? I see one condition.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; (plus obeying God's commandments? NO. Simply faith) and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Yet you seem determined to make salvation "of yourself" and boast in your works, namely, obeying God's commandments.
Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace (plus obeying Gods commandments? NO. Simply faith) in which we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Since you define faith "as" obeying God's commandments I can understand your confusion. Roman Catholics are also confused about this. I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." That same Roman Catholic also denied that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic contradicted himself and misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such:
Saved by grace through faith "infused" with good works, just not by works of the law. That sounds similar to what you teach.
So that Roman Catholic clearly teaches we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Sound familiar? The problem with that logic is you cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) That same Roman Catholic also made this erroneous statement below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..
His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above (yet at the same time denying that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works) is just sugar-coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.
Thanks for your post. Your comments are welcome anytime, brother.
We have these car shows in the Summer. I love to go occasionally and see the restored cars.
And will crane my neck to see them when they are out on the road with me. Very cool.
The point is, that in order to have those results, you have to disassemble the whole thing and
evaluate what needs to be repaired. Some parts are no good any more, and need to be replaced.
A family situation led me to re-evaluate the hell issue. That process has led me to evaluate everything.
Like layers of an onion coming off as I peel away decades of questionable indoctrination.
Eat the meat, spit out the bones.
While reading this I had a mental image of a restored automobile.
We have these car shows in the Summer. I love to go occasionally and see the restored cars.
And will crane my neck to see them when they are out on the road with me. Very cool.
The point is, that in order to have those results, you have to disassemble the whole thing and
evaluate what needs to be repaired. Some parts are no good any more, and need to be replaced.
A family situation led me to re-evaluate the hell issue. That process has led me to evaluate everything.
Like layers of an onion coming off as I peel away decades of questionable indoctrination.
Eat the meat, spit out the bones.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
God imputes righteousness apart from works, not of works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Does God perform these works for us why we passively sit by or does man perform these works? So much for your sugar-coated double talk/smoke and mirrors argument. If we were saved by works, then these would be works of merit. Period. You can't have it both ways. Who is the liar now?
Exactly.
Good works are the RESULT, not the CAUSE of salvation.
Nor does a lack of works disqualify the GIFT.
Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.
And just to be clear, my restoration project is still in the garage on on the lift.
I don't have everything figured out. And perhaps that's how it should be.
Frankly, I had the same problem as a full-blown evangelical apologist,as I was raised to be.
There was always something missing, something that didn't add up. (sigh)
When I pull back to take stock, I had a revelation. This is faith.
To remain a believer EVEN THOUGH I don't have all the answers.
I run into my OLD self often on the forum. I do what I can to be loving to them.
But they need to be challenged as I was. Frankly, this doesn't happen enough in the church.
They prefer an echo chamber to glad-hand each other with no "dissenting" voices. (unbelievers)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I love your analogy. I can't do better but I have often thought about Bible study in terms of solving a jigsaw puzzle.
It's like this. We have a box filled with jigsaw puzzle pieces we need to assemble. But the enemy has loaded our box with jigsaw pieces from a hundred other pictures. We have pieces from this theological system and pieces from that theological system and hundreds more and they are all mixed together. Our task is to form a complete picture of the true gospel given all the mixed-up pictures in our box.
When we pick up a piece, we must decide two things: 1) is this piece actually part of the original picture? And 2) where does it fit into the true picture?
Is it worth it? I mean who has the time, really?
Once in a while, the Lord rewards our efforts with a corner piece.
I love that analogy as well.
And have been surprised when pieces from other puzzle sets fit the one I am trying to assemble.
Makes you wonder. Was it really from the enemy?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
James is simply saying faith that remains by itself "barren of works" demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)
In context, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous, which is confirmed in Romans 4:2-3. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works" in James 2:21. He was shown to be righteous.
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
See how you twist everything
I can absolutely say that faith apart from works is not faith also.
But that does not prove
but that is not what I accused you of. I accused you of teaching that we are saved by Faith Plus works. and since you can not answer straightly you as much as acknowledge I was correct.
Again, this just proves you teach faith plus works.
Take yourself out of the equation man, You can't save yourself. God will not accept your works as payment for sin. Saying he will mocks Christ. and his death
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DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?
This is somewhat of a follow-up to my previous topic from June 23, 2023: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/is-there-a-cure-for-my-religious-upbringing-other-than-atheism-i-mean.56346/ Here's another video that talks specifically about the process of deconstruction that Sara Martin...
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It is assumed Salvation is all about us being saved. While the redemption of humanity (some will debate this) is the result of God's activity, I think we err when we make it all about us.
I reflect on what the scriptures mean by, 'the lamb slain from the foundation of the World'? Wasn't the lamb Jesus and wasn't he slain at Calvary?
Revelation 13:8
'And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Could the answer to 'The gift of Salvation' find traction in the above quoted text.
So how do I understand '....slain from the foundation of the World'? because that doesn't sound like its all about us.
....further; if it's not all about us then who is it about and what are the issues giving birth to such statements?
Thanks.
You raise some interesting points.
While I read your post I was thinking about the word (Logos/logic/reason/plan/idea) that was from the beginning.
(Gospel of John, chapter one)
The word became flesh. That word that became flesh was the lamb slain...
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