Is the Holy Spirit needed to believe initially?

[friend of]

Acts of the Apostles 7:51
"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

If Irresistible Grace is true, then why are people being exhorted to stop resisting the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't God deliver them from all such resistance for their own good?

 

[Hidden In Him]

however they are still responsible... It does not say that God has ordained all men ever born to seek Him.

And they are still responsible precisely because He has determined "that they should seek the Lord." Your above statement directly contradicts the scripture you yourself have now quoted, twice, which means you apparently see no problem in doing so.

Believe as wish, Anthony. But citing scriptures and turning around and teaching the exact opposite of what they say is something you may be held accountable for in eternity.

Best wishes,
Hidden

 

[mjrhealth]

using this reasoning, Lazarus had to resurrect himself before he heard Jesus and came out of the tomb

What has that to do with anything, He was resurrected because of what Christ did to glorify God, nothing to do with his faith.

 

[Dave L]

I don’t believe it’s a lack of study.

Point out one difference in something I've said and historic Baptist or Reformed theology where I haven't pointed it out myself. I don't think you know what either of these teach.

 

[Dave L]

I'm sinful and I believe, I also have faith. With faith comes trust. I also have trust. Before I believed I had nothing. Believing came first.

How so? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

@Anthony D'Arienzo

How does your position deal with scriptures like:

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'

How do Calvinists explain these verses in light of Unconditional Election and Irresistable Grace?

Hello Friend of,
We believe those verses just as they are written.
GOD reveals that He does not delight or take pleasure in the death of the wicked....nevertheless each and every sin will be punished.
If every person on the planet wanted to repent and believe the gospel nothing is stopping them .
They are bound in sin and spiritually dead in Adam. They love sin rather than God.
Election and irresistible grace does not stop sinners from coming in repentance and faith. Sin does.
Election and irresistible grace guarantees a multitude of sinners will be eventually made willing by God psalm110:3.
They are born resisting God as in Eph2....but God....in vs.4 has mercy upon them and draws them saving my.
GOD does not prevent them,sin does and there comes a time when turkey are hardened in their sin.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Probably. Do you understand it? You didn't elaborate. Why?

Do you want me to explain it?
If I explain it will you believe the teaching, or do you have additional objections?
I like to help if people want an answer. Many just plan on resisting no matter what is said.
Jn6:37-44 is so explicit that it makes people look foolish who attempt to explain it away.
All that are given by the Father come to Jesus. Everyone of them.
They do not try and come, they actually come to Him. We find out they come because He seeks them by the Spirit.
No man can come unless the Father who sent the Son draws the person.
No man can.....do you see Jesus saying this? Only those given by the Father to the Son are enabled to come being drawn.
Jesus explained why He came down from heaven and For whom He came to save......No more, no less...It is a multitude that is a fixed number.
Jesus as the mediator and Great High Priest is their surety...ie, their guarantee . This is known as the Covenant of Redemption made before the world was by the trinity. It is the Everlasting Covenant.heb13:20.

The context of Jn12 is different altogether.
Jews believed that the Messiah was only coming for them.
Jesus explains that Him going to the cross,Israel rejecting Him, would lead to the gospel going to all the nations...ie, all men....not Israel only.
It cannot mean all men ever born, because multitudes were already dead before Jesus came to earth.
Missionaries go because most have never even heard of Jesus yet, and they are dying worldwide.

 

[Jeff Wiebe]

How so? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

How can you have faith in anything if you don't believe in it? We receive faith after believing. As we grow stronger in Christ so does our faith in him. That's what Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit means. Jeremiah 29:13.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I suppose this thread is aimed more at Calvinists and their doctrine of total depravity, which inferrs that the inception of faith in Christ is solely the work of the Holy Spirit convincing one of the truth about Christ.

John 7:37-39

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

This passage shows that people believed in Jesus before receiving the Holy Spirit (aparently). So what compelled them to believe in Jesus' testimony if the Spirit had not yet been given them? Was it their own free will in this case?

The Christ told Nicodemus that no one can see the Kingdom, let alone enter it, unless they are born again. It takes the Spirit to quicken the dead in sins sinner so that they can see. Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously, my friend.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Acts of the Apostles 7:51
"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

If Irresistible Grace is true, then why are people being exhorted to stop resisting the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't God deliver them from all such resistance for their own good?

IG teaches that ppl who are saved don’t resist all the way to perdition.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here are two verses in the gospel of John that seem to contradict one another. The first is one Calvinists use to advocate only their elect are chosen irresistibly, and the other shows all men being drawn.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Draw comes from the Greek word ἑλκύσω (helko) pronounced hel-koo-o, which means to literally drag off. Now, in John 6:44, the Christ says that no one, unless drawn by the Father, can come to Him. This shows man’s inability to seek for God. Why? They hate Him. Go and read Romans 8:5-9. There you can see those who are unregenerate(lost) are at enmity(have an ill will) with God. They loathe Him. That is why seeing regeneration as the cause of one’s belief, and not one’s belief as the cause of his/her regeneration is very important.

The same Greek word ἑλκύσω is also found in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword and in John 21:11 when they drew the net full of fish to the shore. So, this is meant to be taken as the Christ is drawing everyone indiscriminately, but that the scope of this drawing is drawing His ppl out world wide.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

What has that to do with anything, He was resurrected because of what Christ did to glorify God, nothing to do with his faith.

Spiritually dead people need regeneration before they can respond to anything. In eph2 the word for dead

And they are still responsible precisely because He has determined "that they should seek the Lord." Your above statement directly contradicts the scripture you yourself have now quoted, twice, which means you apparently see no problem in doing so.

Believe as wish, Anthony. But citing scriptures and turning around and teaching the exact opposite of what they say is something you may be held accountable for in eternity.

Best wishes,
Hidden

nice try....but that is not what vs26 says....it speaks of their times, and place..
That might be why you cannot understand grace properly.
GOD tells us who is ordained to believe acts13:48

Draw comes from the Greek word ἑλκύσω (helko) pronounced hel-koo-o, which means to literally drag off. Now, in John 6:44, the Christ says that no one, unless drawn by the Father, can come to Him. This shows man’s inability to seek for God. Why? They hate Him. Go and read Romans 8:5-9. There you can see those who are unregenerate(lost) are at enmity(have an ill will) with God. They loathe Him. That is why seeing regeneration as the cause of one’s belief, and not one’s belief as the cause of his/her regeneration is very important.

The same Greek word ἑλκύσω is also found in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword and in John 21:11 when they drew the net full of fish to the shore. So, this is meant to be taken as the Christ is drawing everyone indiscriminately, but that the scope of this drawing is drawing His ppl out world wide.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Spiritually dead people need regeneration before they can respond to anything. In eph2 the word for dead

nice try....but that is not what vs26 says....it speaks of their times, and place..
That might be why you cannot understand grace properly.
GOD tells us who is ordained to believe acts13:48

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

SG,
It looks just like the word for draw seems to get at the idea that the drawing was an effectual drawing

 

[Mjh29]

Do you want me to explain it?
If I explain it will you believe the teaching, or do you have additional objections?
I like to help if people want an answer. Many just plan on resisting no matter what is said.
Jn6:37-44 is so explicit that it makes people look foolish who attempt to explain it away.
All that are given by the Father come to Jesus. Everyone of them.
They do not try and come, they actually come to Him. We find out they come because He seeks them by the Spirit.
No man can come unless the Father who sent the Son draws the person.
No man can.....do you see Jesus saying this? Only those given by the Father to the Son are enabled to come being drawn.
Jesus explained why He came down from heaven and For whom He came to save......No more, no less...It is a multitude that is a fixed number.
Jesus as the mediator and Great High Priest is their surety...ie, their guarantee . This is known as the Covenant of Redemption made before the world was by the trinity. It is the Everlasting Covenant.heb13:20.

The context of Jn12 is different altogether.
Jews believed that the Messiah was only coming for them.
Jesus explains that Him going to the cross,Israel rejecting Him, would lead to the gospel going to all the nations...ie, all men....not Israel only.
It cannot mean all men ever born, because multitudes were already dead before Jesus came to earth.
Missionaries go because most have never even heard of Jesus yet, and they are dying worldwide.

Very well stated. I believe that it has been summed up in 2 Timothy.

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

 

[101G]

Also notice that Jesus NEVER spoke of the Holy Spirit, as a person....or anything else
Notice that all of Paul's salutations never mentioned the Holy Spirit. Paul never preached a separate spirit or entity apart for God and his Son, as Jesus and every believer has this power of God's own spirit in degrees? I wonder why...because the spirit of God is not another person...It is a major part of God himself...only one person not two or three. God is the source of it and he owns it. Christ and us are all partakers on the same one Spirit. Only one Spirit of God that is its source. Not another independent spirit running around in the ether.

we agree to a point, except for, "Christ and us are all partakers on the same one Spirit". everything else is pretty much correct. the Holy Spirit is God himself. as said, not some spirit independently running around. well somebody else see the truth there.

PICJAG

 

[Phoneman777]

That is not quite accurate. Calvinists wrongly believe that sinners are REGENERATED before they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Actually the opposite is true, since only those who obey the Gospel are regenerated (John 1:12,13; Titus 3:4-7). Which means repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

As to you question about the convincing and convicting of the Holy Spirit, that has been true ever since early times (before Pentecost). And that is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit on sinners when they hear (or read) the Gospel.

So it is the power of the Gospel itself, under the convincing and convicting of the Holy Spirit, that generates saving faith, which then leads to regeneration.

Amen. I just can't understand how a brilliant man like Calvin could have been so wrong about TULIP, but seeing there is "wisdom in the multitude of counsel" and such a lack of counselors willing to agree with Calvin, I think it is a doctrine we may safely disregard.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I suppose this thread is aimed more at Calvinists and their doctrine of total depravity, which inferrs that the inception of faith in Christ is solely the work of the Holy Spirit convincing one of the truth about Christ.

John 7:37-39

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

This passage shows that people believed in Jesus before receiving the Holy Spirit (aparently). So what compelled them to believe in Jesus' testimony if the Spirit had not yet been given them? Was it their own free will in this case?

In Old Testament times, the Holy Spirit was "hovering over the face of the waters", He was ON the prophets, He was WITH Yahweh's people, He WENT BEFORE them, He CAUSED King Saul to prophesy, etc. He was called, the Ruach Ha Kodesh in Hebrew--the "breath of God". But, He was not IN them--that will not happen until they see their Messiah Jesus, coming in the clouds of heaven and they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" Zechariah 12:10 pictures this moment. In Ezekiel 37:14, we are told that (what was then) "in the distant future" Gog (a word that is a generic term for all of Israel's foes) would conquer them like a cloud (in the time of "Jacob's trouble"--aka the Tribulation) but that the Lord God would preserve a remnant of them through it and that they would be filled with God's Spirit and brought into the new Messianic Kingdom (aka--the Millennial Kingdom).

Jesus, and His body, the Church is the "First Fruits" and we have already been given the indwelling Holy Spirit (in part, to make Israel jealous). After the Church departs in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will still be here, because faith is made possible through His convicting power. Some say that He will leave with the Church but, I'm guessing that His work will become more as it was in Old Testament times. I suspect that is why those who convert after the Church is gone, are at risk of the "2nd death"--they will not have the (eternal-life-conferring) permanent indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit until they embrace their Messiah who comes in the clouds to rule and reign "with a rod of iron".

 

[Jay Ross]

In Old Testament times, the Holy Spirit was "over the face of the deep", He was ON the prophets, He was WITH Yahweh's people, He WENT BEFORE them, He CAUSED King Saul to prophesy, etc. He was called, the Ruach Ha Kodesh in Hebrew--the "breath of God". But, He was not IN them--that will not happen until they see their Messiah Jesus, coming in the clouds of heaven and they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" Zechariah 12:10 pictures this moment. In Ezekiel 37:14, we are told that (what was then) "in the distant future" Gog (a word that is a generic term for all of Israel's foes) would conquer them like a cloud (in the time of "Jacob's trouble"--aka the Tribulation) but that the Lord God would preserve a remnant of them through it and that they would be filled with God's Spirit and brought into the new Messianic Kingdom (aka--the Millennial Kingdom).

Jesus, and His body, the Church is the "First Fruits" and we have already been given the indwelling Holy Spirit (in part, to make Israel jealous). After the Church departs in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will still be here, because faith is made possible through His convicting power. Some say that He will leave with the Church but, I'm guessing that His work will become more as it was in Old Testament times. I suspect that is why those who convert after the Church is gone, are at risk of the "2nd death"--they will not have the (eternal-life-conferring) permanent indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit until they embrace their Messiah who comes in the clouds to rule and reign "with a rod of iron".

This is what I know from Scripture: -

Genesis 1:2: - 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Yes, of course, thank you for pointing that out. I should have looked it up to get the wording just right--I will correct the original post. But, I think you probably know the point I was making.