Is The Rapture Theory Biblical?

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n2thelight

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All that you have shown me, now those people they are still in their graves, waiting for Jesus coming for the second time. I don't have the time to write the same thing twice. Go read all I write about this rapture theory. Do you think that all those people who never and ever will know about this false teaching? Do you want me to write the story of this teaching of you? Do you know why the Adventist are few? Because THEY keep God commandments not man commandments. The devil are fighting us because he knows that we can take his mask off so that everbody can see Him. Let me talk to your pastor. I have a question for him or her. If I ask you this question you cannot answered me.

I don't believe in the rapture,I posted that for the person who was describing the tribulation,and the suffering he thinks will be going on.

Christians have been suffering the most henious of tortures since forever.Christ said fear not those who can kill the body....
 
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Copperhead

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I would say it has a basis in scripture. Harpazo in Greek has the meaning of being caught up. It was translated at Rapturo in the Latin Bible, from which we get the transliterated English word Rapture.

So it does have a scripture basis, but what one does with that is of their own choosing. One can get all bogged down in stuff like this and led off onto various rabbit trails. It can be fun to discuss and share ideas on, but probably wise to keep one's focus on the main topic.... Yeshua. It is easy to get distracted and make these other issues almost a condition of salvation by some.
 
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Copperhead

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Dispensational eschatology and the rapture doctrine has been around for 200 years. The doctrine is built on verses without context and moving them into our time frame and so, the temple will have to be rebuilt for a physical return of Jesus. If Jesus lives in you but is physically somewhere else, then what?

Try at least 1700 years. Sermons found from Ephraim the Syrian (more closely associated with the Eastern Church), roughly 4th century, spoke to a pre-tribulational removal of the righteous. The idea that some little girl had a dream about this and J N Darby picked up on it and made it a new doctrine is specious. Even Sir Isaac Newton held to the idea and he wrote extensive commentaries on Daniel and The Revelation, 100 years before Darby was born.

It can be debated as to whether it is an accurate doctrine or not, but one needs to at least be honest when it comes to the historical setting of the doctrine.
 

Davy

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Try at least 1700 years. Sermons found from Ephraim the Syrian (more closely associated with the Eastern Church), roughly 4th century, spoke to a pre-tribulational removal of the righteous. The idea that some little girl had a dream about this and J N Darby picked up on it and made it a new doctrine is specious. Even Sir Isaac Newton held to the idea and he wrote extensive commentaries on Daniel and The Revelation, 100 years before Darby was born.

It can be debated as to whether it is an accurate doctrine or not, but one needs to at least be honest when it comes to the historical setting of the doctrine.

The Pre-trib Rapture doctors are at it again. They tried to twist what the Pseudo-Ephraem text actually states, and it is definitely NOT about some pre-trib rapture:

"Nation will rise up against nation, And kingdom against kingdom. Lawlessness will be sovereign on earth And the defiled will pursue after the saints. People will openly apostatize And augment the left side; The righteous ones will suffer indignities From those who belong to the side of the sinners." (Syraic text of Pseudo-Ephraem)

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions! But as for us, woe is us! For when we die, Vultures will serve as escort for us!' And if the days of that time were not shortened, The elect would never survive The calamities and afflictions. For Our Lord revealed (and) disclosed to us In his Gospel when He said: 'Those days will be shortened For the sake of the elect and the saints.' And when he has harassed the whole of creation, (When) the Son of Destruction (has bent it) to his will, Enoch and Elijah will be sent That they might persuade the Evil One. With a gentle question The saints will come before him, In order to expose the Son of Destruction Before the assemblies surrounding him: 'If you are indeed God, Tell us what we ask of you: Where is the place that you have hidden The elders Elijah and Enoch?' The Evil One will respond and say To the saints at that time...." (Syraic text of Pseudo-Ephraem)

"Then the Evil One will become enraged With the saints at that time; He will draw his terrible sword And sever the necks of the righteous ones." (Syraic text of Pseudo-Ephraem)

That is NOT a picture of the saints being raptured prior to the tribulation. It's a picture showing the saints going through the tribulation.

The history about the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory beginning in 1830's with Edward Irving and John Darby still stands. For over 1,800 years, no pre-trib rapture was ever taught in the Church.
 
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Copperhead

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You forgot to pile it on Isaac Newton.

One can always tell, when the throw a rock at a pack of dogs, which one they hit. The one that yelps.
 

Wanting to Serve

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I find it more profitable to explain to people that they need to be ready at ANY moment because none of us knows when our last breath on earth will be. We have 100% chance of death. Certainly we are best to use our energy to show God's love to others instead of arguing the specifics of that which only God knows.
Therefore I will suggest to others to simply to be ready at ANY time. Be ready to suffer for Christ as so many of our fellow brothers and sisters are this very moment. People are being persecuted now for their faith. So, I have no concern in the order in which God should choose to have the following happen as stated in Matthew 24: 39-44 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." God is good, all the time & All the time, God is good!
 

Copperhead

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I find it more profitable to explain to people that they need to be ready at ANY moment because none of us knows when our last breath on earth will be. We have 100% chance of death. Certainly we are best to use our energy to show God's love to others instead of arguing the specifics of that which only God knows.
Therefore I will suggest to others to simply to be ready at ANY time. Be ready to suffer for Christ as so many of our fellow brothers and sisters are this very moment. People are being persecuted now for their faith. So, I have no concern in the order in which God should choose to have the following happen as stated in Matthew 24: 39-44 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." God is good, all the time & All the time, God is good!

Excellent post! I like how you cut thru the clutter and got right down to the meat of the issue.
 
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brakelite

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I am reminded of that series of books and movies that were very popular several years ago called the “Left Behind” series. The premise of the books was a situation the authors claimed was about to unfold within the context of Biblical prophecy, and this thread, as I am sure most of you are familiar with, in that Christians would disappear from the face of the earth leaving behind those who would have to go through a period of intense drama including the establishment of the mark of the beast, the persecution of anyone converting to Christianity after the ‘rapture’, the rule of the Antichrist, and the pouring out of the plagues upon mankind culminating in the end of the world as we know it.

Now for any casual reader of the Bible, the above scenario seems entirely plausible. The Bible certainly does mention an event when God’s people are changed, in the Apostle Paul’s words, ‘in the twinkling of an eye’., and are taken to heaven. The Bible also mentions a coming time when a global form of governance will enforce the much talked about and controversial ‘mark of the beast’; the head of this governing authority is indeed the dreaded Antichrist; and yes, we are all aware of the fearful plagues that the Apostle John warned about in the book of Revelation.

The entire ‘Left Behind’ series has become an icon within the walls of evangelical Christianity, and I fear that many who do not study their Bibles carefully enough have taken the authors’ word for all that is written, and presume that all is Biblically based and almost prophetic in itself, despite the authors’ own admission that it is a work of fiction. So how Biblical is it? Is there any basis for believing that countless thousands of people from all walks of life and from all nations, are suddenly going to disappear leaving loved ones, workmates, passengers in planes, buses and taxis, and society as a whole, ‘left behind’ ?

Let us look at those Biblical passages most commonly used in support of the rapture theory, and that form the basis for the ‘left behind’ phenomenon.

As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcass echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:

The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.
Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?

The Left Behind series of books and movies are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.
 
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Copperhead

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Let's also look at the situation you are referring to, the days of Noah. Noah was the one righteous man along with his family.

God had Noah and his family, along with the animals, enter the ark 7 days before He brought the rain and the flood upon the earth. And upon entering the ark, the Lord sealed them inside. That would suggest they couldn't have gotten out if they wanted to.

Prophecy being primarily meant in a literal fashion is more of a western idea. In the Jewish mindset (you know.. the guys who scribed the entire Bible we have), prophecy also is pattern or prologue. We see patterns scattered all thru the scripture. The story of David and Absolom is a striking pattern of the Messiah and the false Messiah. How was Absolom defeated? He was caught in the branch by his hair. His hair was his pride. The false messiah will be caught in the branch (Messiah is the branch throughout scripture) because of his pride.

Likewise, we see a pattern when it comes to Noah. Yeshua told us to look at that event. Noah was sealed away in the ark for 7 days before the flood came. The 70th week of Daniel is a figurative 7 days, each day representing a year. From that, many glean that the tribulation period is a 7 year event, with the last 3.5 years being more aptly, the "Great Tribulation".

In 2 Kings 11, we see Joash being hidden for 7 years in the Temple by Jehosheba to protect him from being slaughtered by Atheliah. And at the end of the 7 years, Joash was brought forth and crowned as king. Again, the pattern emerges. One can see the body of Messiah the King (the ekklesia), being kept from the False Messiah (Atheliah) and protected, then later brought forth. Not a stretch. We will rule with a rod of iron with Messiah as per Rev 2:26-27 at the end of the tribulation period and the establishment of Messiah as king.

There are stacks of these patterns all thru scripture. One can make a real study of them. As the Lord said..... Line upon line, precept upon precept. Isaiah 28:10 proclaims that.
 
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Davy

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....
So, I have no concern in the order in which God should choose to have the following happen as stated in Matthew 24: 39-44 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." God is good, all the time & All the time, God is good!

If you had understood, then you should have also known about the Luke 17 version of the first one 'taken', because Jesus' disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" and He revealed that wherever the body (dead carcase) is, that's where the vultures will be. In other words, the first one 'taken' is taken in DECEPTION to the false one, not to Jesus. In Matt.24:28 is the version where Jesus showed it's a dead "carcase" that is where the eagles (really means vultures) are gathered.

Because we have to read all the way to the end of Luke 17, and also know about Matt.24:28, in order to fully understand the danger of being the first one taken, it shows our Heavenly Father and His Son expect us to be disciplined in study of His Holy Writ, and to be careful to not leave anything out. Because some obviously think they are smarter than God, it appears that He didn't put all the pieces of His Truth together in the same place, meaning we have to be faithful in all His Word.

God will allow us to be tested. The hireling preaches for money. They will tell you what you 'want' to hear. Makes it easier for them, since they don't really have to keep to God's Holy Writ as much with those who won't study for themselves.
 

Helen

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ByGrace,

That's your assertion, but you provided no evidence to support your view. If the teaching of the Rapture is incorrect, please provide us with biblical evidence.

Oz

Evidence. o_O
There is no "evidence" either way....the "evidence ' for, is a couple of flimsy scriptures....that "prove" nothing.

You know that it is a new doctrine...based on some woman's vision.

I find no snatching away patterns in the bible.
I do find some moments of total rapturous catching up in the Spirit...like when the Glory of God fell on the opening day of Solomon's Temple.
The glorious rapture of Paul caught up to the third heaven..."in the body or out of the body we knew not."

As for the picture of loads of dead lifeless bodies all laying around while millions of souls are raptured...phft!
Or worse yet, the picture of literal bodies flying through the air...goodness what a reach. No, there is no evidence for or against...but in biblical pattens.....more in favour of against.

There are so many variations of 'a rapture' theory...but that is all it is...a theory.

Them's are my two cents... :)
 
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OzSpen

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If Jesus is your foundation then let the Bible guide you. Because never the apostles has use the words you used secret rapture. They didn't twist their scriptures. Go read Galatians 1:1-10... maybe you can understand the truth. If you find a verse saying the words secret rapture let me known, maybe I'm blind!! Give God what is God, And give the secret rapture that is not written in the Bible to his owner.

Pipiripi,

Welcome to CyB. My, you do live in a small country, that is part of The Netherlands.

As for the Rapture, how do you understand this passage, especially v. 16:

13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words (1 Thess 4:13-18 NIV).
What does it mean that those who are 'in Christ' and are still alive at Christ's second coming 'will be caught up' in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? What is the meaning of the Greek, harpagesometha?

Most of the translation give the meaning as, 'will be caught up' - NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, HCSB, ISV, RSV, NRSV. 'Shall be taken up' is the New Jerusalem Bible translation.

So, what happens to Christians who are still alive on earth when the dead in Christ have risen at His second coming?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Evidence. o_O
There is no "evidence" either way....the "evidence ' for, is a couple of flimsy scriptures....that "prove" nothing.

You know that it is a new doctrine...based on some woman's vision.

I find no snatching away patterns in the bible.
I do find some moments of total rapturous catching up in the Spirit...like when the Glory of God fell on the opening day of Solomon's Temple.
The glorious rapture of Paul caught up to the third heaven..."in the body or out of the body we knew not."

As for the picture of loads of dead lifeless bodies all laying around while millions of souls are raptured...phft!
Or worse yet, the picture of literal bodies flying through the air...goodness what a reach. No, there is no evidence for or against...but in biblical pattens.....more in favour of against.

There are so many variations of 'a rapture' theory...but that is all it is...a theory.

Them's are my two cents... :)

ByGrace,

You've done it again. You've provided this assertion: 'a couple of flimsy scriptures....that "prove" nothing', and you don't even bother to tell us what those 'flimsy scriptures' are.

Oz
 

Helen

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ByGrace,

You've done it again. You've provided this assertion: 'a couple of flimsy scriptures....that "prove" nothing', and you don't even bother to tell us what those 'flimsy scriptures' are.

Oz

Oh come on...as if you don't really know...:rolleyes:
 

Helen

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1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4:16-18 which is the real favourite...as you well know...
 

OzSpen

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1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4:16-18 which is the real favourite...as you well know...

ByGrace,

1 Cor 15 is a LONG chapter of 58 verses. Please extend to us the courtesy of telling us which of these verses is 'flimsy' evidence for the Rapture.

As for 1 Thess 4:16-18, I've already asked questions of that text in #53. I'm waiting for the exegesis of v. 17.

Oz
 

Davy

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The events of 1 Thess.4:13-17 are the same events of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and 1 Cor.15:51-54; they are all... about the same event of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

The 1 Thess.4:13-17 events are about 2 separate groups of saints joined at Christ's second coming:
1. the asleep saints who have already died in Christ, Jesus brings these with Him when He comes
2. the alive saints still on earth when Jesus comes, these are gathered to Jesus and the asleep saints at His coming.

The Matt.24:31 gathering of the saints is about the "asleep" saints Jesus brings with Him; they are gathered from one end of heaven to the other.

The Mark 13:27 gathering of the saints is about the alive saints on earth; they are gathered from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The 1 Thess.4:16 verse declares the same event of the resurrection of the dead on that day that 1 Cor.15:52 does, and it shows the alive saints being "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" on that day, also showing both Scriptures are of the same time and events.

Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, His feet touching down, and bringing all the saints with Him. This means His destination when He comes to gather His Church is not back to Heaven, but to the earth, to Jerusalem. That is where He will rule all nations with "a rod of iron" for the thousand years of Revelation 20, with His elect.
 

Wanting to Serve

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If you had understood, then you should have also known about the Luke 17 version of the first one 'taken', because Jesus' disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" and He revealed that wherever the body (dead carcase) is, that's where the vultures will be. In other words, the first one 'taken' is taken in DECEPTION to the false one, not to Jesus. In Matt.24:28 is the version where Jesus showed it's a dead "carcase" that is where the eagles (really means vultures) are gathered.

Because we have to read all the way to the end of Luke 17, and also know about Matt.24:28, in order to fully understand the danger of being the first one taken, it shows our Heavenly Father and His Son expect us to be disciplined in study of His Holy Writ, and to be careful to not leave anything out. Because some obviously think they are smarter than God, it appears that He didn't put all the pieces of His Truth together in the same place, meaning we have to be faithful in all His Word.

God will allow us to be tested. The hireling preaches for money. They will tell you what you 'want' to hear. Makes it easier for them, since they don't really have to keep to God's Holy Writ as much with those who won't study for themselves.

========
Thank you for your reply. I trust that God will do all these things in the most perfect way in whatever manner he chooses. God has a way of surprising people in the manner in which he does things. If you read the beginning of my comment again you will see that I was not making any sort of statement about what the text meant. I think it is wise to warn that everyone should always be right with God, be ready to suffer & die for your faith (as many do EVERY day in this world) & be ready for Jesus at any time since no one knows when his last day will be. Be ready.
 
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