Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[Grailhunter]

When any Christian group promotes a false gospel, then that becomes a cult. Also, a cult centers around one man, so that's another indication. Calvinists should have rejected Calvinism a long time ago.

But this thread is about the cult of Mary, so you are currently off-topic. Mary has replaced Christ in Catholic theology, and that is an extremely serious deviation from the truth.

Well at least you got the definition of cult right. lol They should have rejected John Calvin. Off topic.....when do they stay on topic? Either way I think the topic is Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? That is a petty open ended topic. So on your topic...Mary. She has not replaced Christ in Catholic theology. But Protestants are offended because they pray to her. I do not blame you for that. The Protestant religion is mostly confined between the covers of the Holy Bible. But what is wrong with that? It does preserve a certain amount of fundamentalism...right? But reality continued to march on after the close of the Holy Bible. Fundamentalism dictates that it is a corruption of the faith to think that God did anything after the close of the Holy Bible. So God did nothing for 2000 years? A card board cut out that never talked to us again. Never interacted with Christians, no further information for 2000 years. Odds are real good that, that did not happen. Now there is a 1500 year period here that Protestants did not exist. 1500 years or more after Christ, they stand up and pooh pooh everyone else's beliefs and insinuate they have a better idea. Luther never intended to form a religion to break away from the Church, he wanted to reform it. His initiative got away from him and now we have thousands of interpretations of the scriptures.

The history of Mary occurs in the centuries that followed Christ, a period in which Protestants were not around to witness Christian history. So the beliefs of Mary are a matter of Catholic history, not your religion, I get that and I respect that. You do not have to tell a Catholic that their beliefs regarding Mary are not represented in the Holy Bible, they know that. But they don't believe that God just stopped doing anything after the close of the Holy Bible. The Catholic Church has certainly errored throughout history, but you error in thinking God just stopped doing anything. No other religion can be witness to the things God did after the close of the Holy Bible. It is what it is.

I am not going to defend all the things that the Catholic Church has done. But I defend many religions. If some one singles out the
Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecosts, Catholics, Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Moravian Church and non-denominational churches and other churches that I have fellowshipped with to criticize them, I will come to their defense also. Your religion is your business. If you think only your religion is right, that is your business. But...on the topic "Is there salvation outside of the Catholic Church? The answer is yes. How is that for staying on topic?

 

[Enoch111]

She has not replaced Christ in Catholic theology

Did you not read the quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Mary is the Mother of the Church, bringing salvation to men, and the Mediatrix of Christians in Heaven. If that is not replacing Christ what it?

 

[Grailhunter]

Did you not read the quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Mary is the Mother of the Church, bringing salvation to men, and the Mediatrix of Christians in Heaven. If that is not replacing Christ what it?

Ask someone that is actually in that religion.

 

[GodsGrace]

I placed a I like what you said, But I am not sure where you were going, Paul stated that some were of Paul, and some of Peter, and some of James, OK, not an exact Quote! but you know what I mean, and I Agree that What Jesus began to do and Teach, until He was taken Up, Acts 1 chapt 1 is the Gospel of the Kingdom. What say Ye? Matthew is all about the King from Heaven, laying down the rules [ Constitution ] of the Kingdom of Heaven, and if you read slowly and consider what Jesus is Teaching, how con we miss that! What is Your take on this!
I know this is out of context with this Thread, but just the same I am just Curious!!

I know that Paul used the expression Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven interchangeably....
But usually we say Kingdom of God to mean God's Kingdom here on earth...
Is this what you're talking about in your post?

OR, are you talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, after death?

 

[GodsGrace]

And then you get upset when I catch you in a LIE and expose you for it.

The Catholic Church has NEVER changed a single doctrine in it's 2000+ year history - not ONE.
As long as you keep repeating this lie - I'll keep exposing you for it . . .

OK BoL.
Stay happy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks,
On behalf of everyone that believes in a Sovereign God whose arm is not short and just loves hearing Him described as a monster and Calvinists as the “enemy” for embracing what scriptures actually say.

A, you know I don't agree with calvinism.
What I'm saying is that Christians have real enemies...
we don't need to make enemies of each other...I think we need to stick together.
Sometimes I wish the reformation never happened....
Sometimes I'm happy it did.
I have mixed feelings about it.

 

[Grailhunter]

And then you get upset when I catch you in a LIE and expose you for it.

The Catholic Church has NEVER changed a single doctrine in it's 2000+ year history - not ONE.
As long as you keep repeating this lie - I'll keep exposing you for it . . .

Got a couple questions you can educate me on:
Why are you so comfort getting rude with GodsGrace? Is it a religion thing regarding women or is it personnel dislike for women?
Secondly....2000 year old doctrines??? Tell we the time period that most of the Catholic doctrines were set.

 

[GodsGrace]

Got a couple questions you can educate me on:
Why are you so comfort getting rude with GodsGrace? Is it a religion thing regarding women or is it personnel dislike for women?
Secondly....2000 year old doctrines??? Tell we the time period that most of the Catholic doctrines were set.

Great point.
The doctrines of the CC took hundreds of years to develop and they underwent change.

A doctrine was changed just about 4 years ago,,,,but die-hard catholics refuse to accept this. And I'm tired of discussing it...both here and in my real life with my catholic friends.

 

[illini1959]

The freedom we enjoy in Christ astounds many
I am going to (briefly) address some of your points. If you wish a deeper discussion please pm me or start a new thread.



seriously though, don't take any ones word on a forum as Catholic teaching (not even mine lol). If you really want to examine what the Church teaches, I would suggest you read the cathechism from the beginning (including the foreward with the purpose and intent of the cathechism). You will find both scriptural and Traditional support for its teachings. I would be happy to walk through it with you and answer any questions...



well, I think 'most of the doctrine' is indeed consistent with scripture. I take 'the Holy Spirit will lead you into all Truth ' to heart, and thus accept the things HE has taught to the Church down through the centuries. Do you think all doctrine must be explicitly stated in scripture? What of the ecumenical councils?

As for Mary, I'm sure others are better qualified to give you scriptural support, but I would start with the ark of the covenant and the Queen mother of the Davidic kingdom...



works without faith is useless and faith without works is dead...

'Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?' - Jesus

'See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.' - St. James

'Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church' - St. Paul

Is Paul saying Jesus' passion was insufficient? God forbid! He is saying that Christ has done HIS part, and now we must do ours...

Obedience is NOT optional.




Rom 11: 20-22

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.




For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.



See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.




We do indeed believe that! We also believe that we have freewill and can ourselves 'leave HIS hand'.

If you have never turned your back on HIM or been willfully disobedient, then Praise the Lord.
As one who has done those things (to my shame), I can attest that one can indeed fall from Grace... it doesn't end well... except that Alleluia! Jesus in HIS mercy WILL heal us if we turn back to HIM.



'This prefigured baptism, which saves you now ' - St Peter



Agreed! Every faithful Catholic believes this!



'But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.' - St. Paul



Do you never ask others to pray for you? Do you pray for others? The communion of the saints is REAL!



I believe I just showed that they did... however this will take us off topic, pm me if you have more questions



An acorn doesn't look much like a fully grown oak tree, yet they are one and the same. What do you think the NT church looked like? Where was it in 100 AD, 200AD, 300 AD... ?



no worries, I have thick skin But just a suggestion, I wouldn't throw 'false doctrine' around to nonchalantly, it is a serious charge...



sure. but who arbitrates if you and I have a dispute? How do we preserve the peace and unity of the body and walk on , bearing with one another in love? If we can't agree, and are unwilling to submit to one another, we splinter, and splinter, and splinter... Is Christ divided?

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

I'm not going to be here long so won't be posting until tomorrow - plus I don't want to give an off the cuff reply to your post, but I will say all of your arguments are the same ones I've already seen.

I don't need to read your catechism as I've seen enough of it quoted to know it's wrong and it's not scripture so not my standard for the truth. Scripture should be the final standard - when anything else is taught as truth and it isn't confirmed by scripture one is right and one is wrong.

Which are you going to stand by? The RC catechism or scripture? There are pretty big differences.

Thanks for the post, and I'll give a more thoughtful response tomorrow.

 

[illini1959]

@illini1959 how powerful to you believe Christ's grace is, to save wretched sinners?
Is it strong enough to save a person even if they have some wayward understandings?

There is one way to salvation. One.

If the "wayward understandings" don't line up with scripture then it's not a matter of grace being strong enough.

There's a difference between, for example, disagreeing on whether to immerse or sprinkle in baptism, and another on whether baptism saves.

If God is drawing a person, the person will search until He is found. We won't know everything at first, obviously. But once we are saved, it's up to us to "study to show yourselves approved....rightly dividing the word..."

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not know why you keep telling me this !!!!!!!!! ??????????

I have mentioned several times the mass is in Latin and the
speaking in between is in Polish.
After a while the child just does not listen any more .
Why because they do not speak those language... or understand..
How do you follow a prayer books in English when the priest is speaking
in Latin ????
And one thing you may not understand...... Back then things were different
it was in the 1940's..... And after so many years a child just started to
blank out what is going on..... boring,,,,, doing this 6 day's a week....

I don’t care if it was 400 years ago. The Mass has ALWAYS been Bible-based and there has ALWAYS been a Liturgy of the Word. YOUR claim that there is “no Bible” is patently FALSE.

Whenever I read your phony posts about the Catholic Church – I’m not surprised at ALL why you left. Your dishonesty and ignorance show that you were just a pew-filler . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

When any Christian group promotes a false gospel, then that becomes a cult. Also, a cult centers around one man, so that's another indication. Calvinists should have rejected Calvinism a long time ago.

But this thread is about the cult of Mary, so you are currently off-topic. Mary has replaced Christ in Catholic theology, and that is an extremely serious deviation from the truth.

This is complete hogwash.

This thread is about whether or not there is salvation outside the Catholic Church – NOT the “cult of Mary.”

Your asinine and often-repeated charge that Catholics have “replaced” Christ with Mary is not only unsubstantiated – it’s really stupid. I OPENLY Challenge you to find the Catholic teaching that “replaces” Christ with Mary.

You are being exposed because you are dishonest - NOT because you are a Protestant.

 

[Enoch111]

The doctrines of the CC took hundreds of years to develop and they underwent change.

And in spite of all that, they turned out to be false. Imagine.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There is one way to salvation. One.

If the "wayward understandings" don't line up with scripture then it's not a matter of grace being strong enough.

There's a difference between, for example, disagreeing on whether to immerse or sprinkle in baptism, and another on whether baptism saves.

If God is drawing a person, the person will search until He is found. We won't know everything at first, obviously. But once we are saved, it's up to us to "study to show yourselves approved....rightly dividing the word..."

Do you believe that salvation come only after understanding and man's ability to pass a theology test?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Got a couple questions you can educate me on:
Why are you so comfort getting rude with GodsGrace? Is it a religion thing regarding women or is it personnel dislike for women?
Secondly....2000 year old doctrines??? Tell we the time period that most of the Catholic doctrines were set.

You’re fairly new here, so I’ll explain.

First of all – the fact that GG is female has nothing to do with my treatment of her posts.

I’ve had MANY conversations with GG – and others like her who doll out dishonest manure about the Catholic Church like they were passing out candy. Once you engage in lies of ANY kind on a regular basis – it becomes second-nature to lie without giving it a second thought. Unfortunately – GG has fallen into this trap.

I have exposed her lies on DOZENS of occasions – and this time was no different.
I am here on this forum for ONE reason: To expose lies about the Catholic Church.

I came here several years ago and saw an almost party-like anti-Catholic atmosphere – replete with the most heinous – and common lies about the Catholic Church. Many non-members come here regularly seeking answers and I decided that they have a right to know the truth about what Catholics believe – not just lies.

 

[illini1959]

Do you believe that salvation come only after understanding and man's ability to pass a theology test?

Of course not, and I don't think my post indicated that at all.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Of course not, and I don't think my post indicated that at all.

Could you help me better understand what you believe then?

As a prerequisite for salvation, does a person need to have a correct understanding of Mary*? Or can a person be saved while still not correctly understanding Mary*?

*Just to grab a random topic here.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Great point.
The doctrines of the CC took hundreds of years to develop and they underwent change.

A doctrine was changed just about 4 years ago,,,,but die-hard catholics refuse to accept this. And I'm tired of discussing it...both here and in my real life with my catholic friends.

You mean, you're tired of being proven wrong . . .

And as I educated you several times before – the Catholic Church has not changed a SINGLE doctrine in 2000 years. I would be MORE than happy to debate this with you – AFTER you do your homework.

You keep trying to equate doctrine with discipline – as in the case of some divorcees receiving the Eucharist. You are dead wrong ion this issue – but you persist in embarrassing yourself.

Let me know when you’re ready to have an educated conversation about this . . .

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You’re fairly new here, so I’ll explain.

First of all – the fact that GG is female has nothing to do with my treatment of her posts.

I’ve had MANY conversations with GG – and others like her who doll out dishonest manure about the Catholic Church like they were passing out candy. Once you engage in lies of ANY kind on a regular basis – it becomes second-nature to lie without giving it a second thought. Unfortunately – GG has fallen into this trap.

I have exposed her lies on DOZENS of occasions – and this time was no different.
I am here on this forum for ONE reason: To expose lies about the Catholic Church.

I came here several years ago and saw an almost party-like anti-Catholic atmosphere – replete with the most heinous – and common lies about the Catholic Church. Many non-members come here regularly seeking answers and I decided that they have a right to know the truth about what Catholics believe – not just lies.

FYI: you conveying information would go over much smoother if it came without the assumption & attacks that every other person on here hates Catholics/Catholicism and is lying.

 

[BreadOfLife]

FYI: you conveying information would go over much smoother if it came without the assumption & attacks that every other person on here hates Catholics/Catholicism and is lying.

FYI: you conveying information would go over much smoother if it came without the assumption & attacks that every other person on here hates Catholics/Catholicism and is lying.

That’s not the case.

There are people on this forum who disagree with Catholic teaching but aren’t anti-Catholic.

I don’t have any tolerance for people who choose to lie in their arguments against the Catholic Church.

I have NO problem with those who simply disagree.
I believe I’ve made this perfectly clear . . .