Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[GodsGrace]

@Marymog

And please don't insult me by referring to the link I posted for you,,,which you should know about anyway...as one written BY ONE BISHOP.

Bishops ALL OVER THE WORLD were horrified at Am. Lat.

It's rather shocking that you're not aware of this.

And intimidation won't work with me either...
I happen to know too much.

 

[GodsGrace]

WOW....a leading German philosopher said it's true sooooo it must be true??? GG.....I know your smarter than that....

Read this to help you better understand: https://catholicinsight.com/amoris-laetitia-mortal-and-grave-sin/

Here is a summary if you don't feel like reading that link:
Francis made a pastoral and prudential judgment to change the practice of the Church that in the past absolutely, and in every situation, forbade any Catholic who had divorced and remarried outside the Church to receive Holy Communion. No exceptions. But in so doing he made very clear he was not and is not changing a single doctrine of Catholic Faith. In fact, he did not even change a single law of the Church, notwithstanding all of the accusations to the contrary.

The Pope was quite simply applying what is a commonly held teaching of the magisterium—everyone who commits an objectively grave sin is not necessarily culpable of mortal sin—to the particular situation of people who have divorced and remarried without having received an annulment.

It is indeed the perennial teaching of the Church that In order to commit a mortal sin, one must:

1. Commit an act that is objectively grave.
2. Have knowledge that what he is about to commit is, in fact, a grave sin.
3. Freely engage his will in carrying out that gravely immoral act.

BTW......A phone call to a woman in Argentina does not change church doctrine AND you should go to the source (Vatican.com) for your information....not a biased newspaper article.

Mary

A biased newspaper article?

ARE YOU SAYING FRANCIS NEVER MADE THE CALL???

 

[Marymog]

if you think it's OK for catholic remarrieds to receive communion ... that's fine with me.

I agee with the pope that this DOCTRINE did need looking into.
Too bad Jesus does not agree with the pope.
Matthew 5:32

I see you didn't read what I wrote or the link I provided. What you THINK you believe is wrong. I have tried to show that to you; you refuse to listen.

I don't recall but I seem to remember that you don't believe in the Real Presence anyways?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

A biased newspaper article?

ARE YOU SAYING FRANCIS NEVER MADE THE CALL???

Ummmm....nope.....never said that....I said the newspaper is biased.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog

And please don't insult me by referring to the link I posted for you,,,which you should know about anyway...as one written BY ONE BISHOP.

Bishops ALL OVER THE WORLD were horrified at Am. Lat.

It's rather shocking that you're not aware of this.

And intimidation won't work with me either...
I happen to know too much.

Soooooo I am still waiting for your evidence that The Church changed their doctrine on this matter (Receiving communion in the state of on-going mortal sin). I quoted from a Catholic source to support what I have been telling you. From whom did you quote?

 

[GodsGrace]

I see you didn't read what I wrote or the link I provided. What you THINK you believe is wrong. I have tried to show that to you; you refuse to listen.

I don't recall but I seem to remember that you don't believe in the Real Presence anyways?

Mary

Mary,
I know about this inside and out, backwards and forwards.

What does the real presence have to do with this?
Are we discussing what I BELIEVE
or what the CC believes?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ummmm....nope.....never said that....I said the newspaper is biased.

Fine.

So if the newspaper is TELLING THE TRUTH...
then Francis told a remarried woman that it was OK for her to receive communion.

CASE CLOSED.

 

[Marymog]

Mary,
I know about this inside and out, backwards and forwards.

What does the real presence have to do with this?
Are we discussing what I BELIEVE
or what the CC believes?

If you don't believe in the Real Presence what does it matter if a person eats a piece of bread while in mortal sin?

Patient Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

Soooooo I am still waiting for your evidence that The Church changed their doctrine on this matter (Receiving communion in the state of on-going mortal sin). I quoted from a Catholic source to support what I have been telling you. From whom did you quote?

Here,,,,just read the whole thing...
I posted the pertinent part and am not doing it again...

The Three Levels of Magisterial Teaching


If this link is correct (and I know it is)
And Francis made that call....
Is he not changing a teaching (doctrine ) of the church?

If it makes you happy to believe that no doctrine has been changed...
you ARE FREE to believe that.

Ask yourself why so many bishops are so upset...
Ask yourself why Francis wants to set up his own permanent synod....

 

[GodsGrace]

If you don't believe in the Real Presence what does it matter if a person eats a piece of bread while in mortal sin?

Patient Mary

Oh for goodness sake Mary...
You're getting carried away with yourself.

1 Corinthians 11:28-29
28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

Even in Protestantism communion is not JUST bread and wine.
Plus, you don't know what I believe and it's irrelevant to our discussion.

Which should be coming to an end.

 

[BreadOfLife]

To be honest with you, I don't pay much attention to your posts. Yes, I goofed; and I can't promise to pay all that much attention to your posts in the future. So you were objecting to the story from Basel. Will Church Militant do?

Swiss Diocese Favorable Towards Same-Sex Marriage

The diocese of Basel, Switzerland, has expressed approval for political efforts to legalize so-called same-sex marriages in the country for the good of children being raised by homosexual partners.

Hansruedi Huber, the director of communications for the diocese of Basel, recently expressed the diocese's welcome of proposed regulations that would legalize so-called same-sex marriage and distinguished between Church blessings and Church weddings: "We welcome the proposed regulations that give homosexual partnerships a stable and reliable legal coverage. It is important to us that children who grow up in same-sex partnerships receive a legal framework that serves the best interests of the child."

Huber expressed the diocese's willingness to bless such unions based on a distinction between a wedding and a blessing: "These must differ in content and form from the church wedding." He did not elaborate on the details of that difference.

Is CNS too radical for you? Swiss Catholic Diocese Welcomes Gay Civil 'Marriage' and Church Blessing for Gay Couples

Although the Catholic Church teaches that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered" and cannot be approved under any circumstances, the Catholic Diocese of Basel, Switzerland has announced that it welcomes the new same-sex civil "marriage" plan the country is adopting.

Further, the diocese said it is certianly willing to bless such "marriages" in a special ceremony, but not perform homosexual weddings.

"We welcome the proposed regulations that give homosexual partnerships a stable and reliable legal coverage," said Hansruedi Huber, communications director for the diocese, as reported by ChurchMilitant.com. "It is important to us that children who grow up in same-sex partnerships receive a legal framework that serves the best interests of the child."

The Catholic Church also does not support gay couples adopting children, arguing that a child has a natural right to a mother and a father.

As for the blessings, Huber said, "These must differ in content and form from the church wedding."

Markus Burri, a deacon in the Basel diocese, said, "Basically, I am convinced that there is nothing wrong with blessing people on their own life path. However, I do not know what the practice looks like with individual pastors."

Swiss diocese officially applauds govt’s efforts to legalize same-sex ‘marriage’

September 11, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) — The Catholic diocese of Basel has applauded current initiatives in Switzerland to legalize same-sex civil “marriage.” Official spokesman Hansruedi Huber was quoted on August 30 by the Luzerner Zeitung as saying the diocese supports the efforts of the Swiss National Council in that direction. Huber also made clear, according to the press article, that the diocese is not opposed to a form of blessing for same-sex relationships.

Huber’s words were a reaction to the debate presently dividing Swiss society after the Swiss National Council’s legal commission’s February decision approving the possibility of a same-sex civil “marriage” law by 19 votes to 4. On that same August 30, the legal commission approved same-sex “marriage,” rejecting by a single vote, however, aims to allow lesbian couples to obtain sperm donation. The draft law is expected to be examined by the Swiss Parliament during its next term. Reformed church leaders will meet in November to discuss the issue and remain divided, although the Swiss Protestant Churches Federation’s president has shown himself clearly in favor of the new law.

Now a part of the Catholic Church in Switzerland also appears to be leaning more and more heavily in that direction.

“We welcome the planned regulations that provide homosexual partnerships with stable and reliable legal security. It is important to us that children who grow up in same-sex partnerships are given a legal framework that serves the welfare of the child,” Hansruedi Huber of the diocese of Basel was quoted as saying.

At present, Switzerland already recognizes same-sex civil partnerships with legal, fiscal, and patrimonial rights that guarantee same-sex couples a status almost equivalent to civil marriage itself, apart from filiation rights. Registered partnerships do not allow for adoption. Present efforts to go a step farther would include legislating on filiation rights, so what is Huber actually “welcoming” if not a push to make “homo-parenting” legal?

The Luzerner Zeitung article does not speak of possible reservations Huber may have expressed regarding same-sex parenting itself. In the present media context, it would probably have quoted them and offered comments. Instead, it shows a high-ranking Catholic representative of the largest diocese of Switzerland as sympathetic to homosexual couples with children.

Huber is even quoted as having merely answered, when questioned about the diocese’s judgment on special blessings for same-sex couples: “These must differ in content and form from the church wedding.”

This was apparently not quite enough for the Luzerner Zeitung, which concluded its story with the remark, “how big this difference should be is obviously not clearly regulated.” It added: “When a parish priest in Uri blessed a lesbian couple in 2014 — with rings and witnesses — he was asked by the then bishop of Chur to resign. The Council of Churches and large parts of the parish gave the parish priest their unconditional backing. After the priest had promised the bishop to refrain from such blessings, he was able to keep his position.”

But the diocese of Basel’s support for the LGBT cause in general is clear enough. New Ways Ministry, the LGBT-friendly purportedly “faithful Catholic” pressure group that in its own words “educates and advocates for justice and equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) Catholics, and reconciliation within the larger church and civil communities,” was quick to report on Huber’s declarations under the title: “Largest Swiss Diocese Endorses Civil Marriage Equality, Blessings for Same-Gender Couples.”

New Ways applauded the statements as “the latest step in the German-speaking church’s ongoing progress towards LGBTQ equality.” It also recalled that Bishop Felix Gmür, who heads the diocese, said last April that while a clear difference between sacramental marriage and same-sex partnerships should be preserved, it is a task for the universal church “to find meanings for these relationships as well.”

Felix Gmür, who was ordained a bishop in 2010, has become well known in gay activist circles for publicly setting up “Rainbow Pastoral Care” in his diocese in 2017. The Regenbogenpastoral’s presentation on the Basel diocese official website makes clear that the initiative wishes to respond to Pope Francis’ calls against “discrimination”:

Pope Francis has repeatedly spoken out against discrimination against people with a different sexual orientation. The diocese of Basel wants to improve its pastoral care for these people. The Rainbow Pastoral Working Group, founded by Bishop Felix Gmür in 2016, came into being on request and in cooperation with committed lesbians, gays, bisexuals, trans*persons and intersexuals (LSBTI). This working group wants to better understand the reality of life of LSBTI people, create places of ecclesial encounter and accompany LSBTI people with their relatives in a spiritual way according to their needs. The working group also advises Bishop Felix in the area of rainbow pastoral care.

Actually - I wasn't objecting to the story. I was objecting to the Pro-homosexual, Pro-LGBT source.
There always have and probably always WILL be bad or unfaithful clergy. This is nothing new.

HOWEVER - it doesn't expose any kind of theological or moral "shift" in the Church.
These idiots simply need to be dealt with with,

 

[Marymog]

Fine.

So if the newspaper is TELLING THE TRUTH...
then Francis told a remarried woman that it was OK for her to receive communion.

CASE CLOSED.

We are talking about Church doctrine and your FALSE ALLEGATION that Church doctrine has changed. A phone call to a woman in Argentina does not change Church doctrine.

I hope you will read this for clarification: Did Pope Francis tell a divorced and civilly remarried woman she could receive Holy Communion?

Or this: Pope Francis phoned what kind of woman and told her what?! UPDATED

Soooo the case isn't closed....

 

[Marymog]

If this link is correct (and I know it is)
And Francis made that call....
Is he not changing a teaching (doctrine ) of the church?...

NO.....He did not change doctrine in an alleged phone call.

I refer you to post 1292

 

[GodsGrace]

To be honest with you, I don't pay much attention to your posts. Yes, I goofed; and I can't promise to pay all that much attention to your posts in the future. So you were objecting to the story from Basel. Will Church Militant do?

Swiss Diocese Favorable Towards Same-Sex Marriage

The diocese of Basel, Switzerland, has expressed approval for political efforts to legalize so-called same-sex marriages in the country for the good of children being raised by homosexual partners.

Hansruedi Huber, the director of communications for the diocese of Basel, recently expressed the diocese's welcome of proposed regulations that would legalize so-called same-sex marriage and distinguished between Church blessings and Church weddings: "We welcome the proposed regulations that give homosexual partnerships a stable and reliable legal coverage. It is important to us that children who grow up in same-sex partnerships receive a legal framework that serves the best interests of the child."

Huber expressed the diocese's willingness to bless such unions based on a distinction between a wedding and a blessing: "These must differ in content and form from the church wedding." He did not elaborate on the details of that difference.

Is CNS too radical for you? Swiss Catholic Diocese Welcomes Gay Civil 'Marriage' and Church Blessing for Gay Couples

Although the Catholic Church teaches that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered" and cannot be approved under any circumstances, the Catholic Diocese of Basel, Switzerland has announced that it welcomes the new same-sex civil "marriage" plan the country is adopting.

Further, the diocese said it is certianly willing to bless such "marriages" in a special ceremony, but not perform homosexual weddings.

"We welcome the proposed regulations that give homosexual partnerships a stable and reliable legal coverage," said Hansruedi Huber, communications director for the diocese, as reported by ChurchMilitant.com. "It is important to us that children who grow up in same-sex partnerships receive a legal framework that serves the best interests of the child."

The Catholic Church also does not support gay couples adopting children, arguing that a child has a natural right to a mother and a father.

As for the blessings, Huber said, "These must differ in content and form from the church wedding."

Markus Burri, a deacon in the Basel diocese, said, "Basically, I am convinced that there is nothing wrong with blessing people on their own life path. However, I do not know what the practice looks like with individual pastors."

Swiss diocese officially applauds govt’s efforts to legalize same-sex ‘marriage’

September 11, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) — The Catholic diocese of Basel has applauded current initiatives in Switzerland to legalize same-sex civil “marriage.” Official spokesman Hansruedi Huber was quoted on August 30 by the Luzerner Zeitung as saying the diocese supports the efforts of the Swiss National Council in that direction. Huber also made clear, according to the press article, that the diocese is not opposed to a form of blessing for same-sex relationships.

Huber’s words were a reaction to the debate presently dividing Swiss society after the Swiss National Council’s legal commission’s February decision approving the possibility of a same-sex civil “marriage” law by 19 votes to 4. On that same August 30, the legal commission approved same-sex “marriage,” rejecting by a single vote, however, aims to allow lesbian couples to obtain sperm donation. The draft law is expected to be examined by the Swiss Parliament during its next term. Reformed church leaders will meet in November to discuss the issue and remain divided, although the Swiss Protestant Churches Federation’s president has shown himself clearly in favor of the new law.

Now a part of the Catholic Church in Switzerland also appears to be leaning more and more heavily in that direction.

“We welcome the planned regulations that provide homosexual partnerships with stable and reliable legal security. It is important to us that children who grow up in same-sex partnerships are given a legal framework that serves the welfare of the child,” Hansruedi Huber of the diocese of Basel was quoted as saying.

At present, Switzerland already recognizes same-sex civil partnerships with legal, fiscal, and patrimonial rights that guarantee same-sex couples a status almost equivalent to civil marriage itself, apart from filiation rights. Registered partnerships do not allow for adoption. Present efforts to go a step farther would include legislating on filiation rights, so what is Huber actually “welcoming” if not a push to make “homo-parenting” legal?

The Luzerner Zeitung article does not speak of possible reservations Huber may have expressed regarding same-sex parenting itself. In the present media context, it would probably have quoted them and offered comments. Instead, it shows a high-ranking Catholic representative of the largest diocese of Switzerland as sympathetic to homosexual couples with children.

Huber is even quoted as having merely answered, when questioned about the diocese’s judgment on special blessings for same-sex couples: “These must differ in content and form from the church wedding.”

This was apparently not quite enough for the Luzerner Zeitung, which concluded its story with the remark, “how big this difference should be is obviously not clearly regulated.” It added: “When a parish priest in Uri blessed a lesbian couple in 2014 — with rings and witnesses — he was asked by the then bishop of Chur to resign. The Council of Churches and large parts of the parish gave the parish priest their unconditional backing. After the priest had promised the bishop to refrain from such blessings, he was able to keep his position.”

But the diocese of Basel’s support for the LGBT cause in general is clear enough. New Ways Ministry, the LGBT-friendly purportedly “faithful Catholic” pressure group that in its own words “educates and advocates for justice and equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) Catholics, and reconciliation within the larger church and civil communities,” was quick to report on Huber’s declarations under the title: “Largest Swiss Diocese Endorses Civil Marriage Equality, Blessings for Same-Gender Couples.”

New Ways applauded the statements as “the latest step in the German-speaking church’s ongoing progress towards LGBTQ equality.” It also recalled that Bishop Felix Gmür, who heads the diocese, said last April that while a clear difference between sacramental marriage and same-sex partnerships should be preserved, it is a task for the universal church “to find meanings for these relationships as well.”

Felix Gmür, who was ordained a bishop in 2010, has become well known in gay activist circles for publicly setting up “Rainbow Pastoral Care” in his diocese in 2017. The Regenbogenpastoral’s presentation on the Basel diocese official website makes clear that the initiative wishes to respond to Pope Francis’ calls against “discrimination”:

Pope Francis has repeatedly spoken out against discrimination against people with a different sexual orientation. The diocese of Basel wants to improve its pastoral care for these people. The Rainbow Pastoral Working Group, founded by Bishop Felix Gmür in 2016, came into being on request and in cooperation with committed lesbians, gays, bisexuals, trans*persons and intersexuals (LSBTI). This working group wants to better understand the reality of life of LSBTI people, create places of ecclesial encounter and accompany LSBTI people with their relatives in a spiritual way according to their needs. The working group also advises Bishop Felix in the area of rainbow pastoral care.

Sure. It starts slow and gets slowly worse.
Euthanasia is next.

The cc has "invited" gays into the church.
I agree with this because they should not be excluded...
BUT...I also see it as a first step.

I'm feeling more and more like the church is becoming like the world instead of the other way around. Not necessarily the CC but all of them...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then why complain about that news site when it reported that they were considered excommunicated. Your problem seems to be you think only Catholics can tell the truth. Oh boy, do you have a problem!

Ummmm, YOU dishonestly referred to it as a "Catholic site".
It was anything BUT . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Even in Protestantism communion is not JUST bread and wine.

Correct.
In MANY of your splintered denominations, it's just oyster crackers and grape juice . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

We are talking about Church doctrine and your FALSE ALLEGATION that Church doctrine has changed. A phone call to a woman in Argentina does not change Church doctrine.

I hope you will read this for clarification: Did Pope Francis tell a divorced and civilly remarried woman she could receive Holy Communion?

Or this: Pope Francis phoned what kind of woman and told her what?! UPDATED

Soooo the case isn't closed....

So the paper I linked is biased...
BUT THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE VATICAN IS NOT?????
Don't be silly Mary...you're too smart for this.


Here's what you linked. It does NOT deny the call was made.
AND HOW MANY TIMES must this pope's remarks be ADJUSTED??
He says what he means...it's just too bad he says what he does!


The Holy See press office has now issued a statement, as follows (with emphasis added):

STATEMENT OF THE HOLY SEE PRESS OFFICE

Vatican City, 24 April 2014 (VIS) – This morning the director of the Holy See Press Office, Fr. Federico Lombardi S.J., issued the following statement:

“Several telephone calls have taken place in the context of Pope Francis’ personal pastoral relationships. Since they do not in any way form part of the Pope's public activities, no information is to be expected from the Holy See Press Office. That which has been communicated in relation to this matter, outside the scope of personal relationships, and the consequent media amplification, cannot be confirmed as reliable, and is a source of misunderstanding and confusion. Therefore, consequences relating to the teaching of the Church are not to be inferred from these occurrences”.

More from Ed Peters HERE.

UPDATE 1:

• It now appears that there has been some misreporting in the press.
• Among other things, it appears that the woman in question was not divorced, but her civil law husband was, instead.
• This still results in an invalid marriage, since she married him civilly
• The Holy See has apparently confirmed that the phone call took place, but has thus far refused to go into details about the conversation, stating that it was private.
• This leaves us with only the descriptions of the event by the woman and her husband, which are unverifiable.

Unverifiable?
Why didn't the pope announce the woman misrepresented their conversation?

Because it was correct.

 

[Marymog]

Oh for goodness sake Mary...
You're getting carried away with yourself.

1 Corinthians 11:28-29
28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

Even in Protestantism communion is not JUST bread and wine.
Plus, you don't know what I believe and it's irrelevant to our discussion.

Which should be coming to an end.

Asking what you believe is getting carried away??? Hmmmm.......

Since you believe in the Real Presence it sounds like you agree with the CC on this matter: A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible. (CIC 916)

Canon Law Mary

 

[Marymog]

So the paper I linked is biased...
BUT THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE VATICAN IS NOT?????
Don't be silly Mary...you're too smart for this.


Here's what you linked. It does NOT deny the call was made.
AND HOW MANY TIMES must this pope's remarks be ADJUSTED??
He says what he means...it's just too bad he says what he does!


The Holy See press office has now issued a statement, as follows (with emphasis added):

STATEMENT OF THE HOLY SEE PRESS OFFICE

Vatican City, 24 April 2014 (VIS) – This morning the director of the Holy See Press Office, Fr. Federico Lombardi S.J., issued the following statement:

“Several telephone calls have taken place in the context of Pope Francis’ personal pastoral relationships. Since they do not in any way form part of the Pope's public activities, no information is to be expected from the Holy See Press Office. That which has been communicated in relation to this matter, outside the scope of personal relationships, and the consequent media amplification, cannot be confirmed as reliable, and is a source of misunderstanding and confusion. Therefore, consequences relating to the teaching of the Church are not to be inferred from these occurrences”.

More from Ed Peters HERE.

UPDATE 1:

• It now appears that there has been some misreporting in the press.
• Among other things, it appears that the woman in question was not divorced, but her civil law husband was, instead.
• This still results in an invalid marriage, since she married him civilly
• The Holy See has apparently confirmed that the phone call took place, but has thus far refused to go into details about the conversation, stating that it was private.
• This leaves us with only the descriptions of the event by the woman and her husband, which are unverifiable.

Unverifiable?
Why didn't the pope announce the woman misrepresented their conversation?

Because it was correct.

I should not have put the word alleged in their. My mistake.

 

[GodsGrace]

NO.....He did not change doctrine in an alleged phone call.

I refer you to post 1292

UFFA!

The present Pope changed DOCTRINE in Amores Laetitia.
And I'm not posting it again.

YOU should know what chapter 8 says as much as I do...
YOU should know what the footnote says as much as I do...

If you think allowing persons in mortal sin to receive communion is not a change in doctrine,,,then so be it.