They are unable to present any rapture passage that teaches a trib following. They have nothing. Pretrib is so fractured now in locating a future Pretrib rapture in Revelation that they take each other out with their posts. Few even try and presnt Revelation 4:1 as an argument. They have final woken up to the folly of such teaching.
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
- Thread starter WPM
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Lol. So, anyone who disagrees with what you teach should be avoided? How arrogant! How delusional! What a load of nonsense. We all disagree on this forum. That is not what it's talking about.
This is all a smokescreen to mask you having no answer to the simple biblical questions. The ironic thing is that you are totally and utterly incapable of presenting one proof text to support your paradigm. You have absolutely nothing. The reason why you're running is because you are bereft of any biblical warrant.
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Where is the "Church" mentioned here? Revelation 4:1-2 is describing John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years to receive the unveiling. This is therefore historic, not future.
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Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.
Nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.
(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?
(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”
In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up:
I've been scrolling past most of his post.
He rejects the Truth…and desperately tries to Suck The Righteous into his own mystery of ignorance and denial.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
LOL. No wonder! You have to. You cannot address them. They demolish your error.
You guys are on the ropes with your false teaching. You cannot address the truth. It exposes your Jesuit teaching.
It is amusing to watch you guys run for the hills and hide. Talk about cowardice. Checkmate!!!
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
You throw limp arguments on the table and then run, knowing that they are untenable. I actually thought this one was actually abandoned by Pretribs and then you regurgitate it.
Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.
Nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.
(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?
(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”
In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up.
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I am coming to the conclusion you are just throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks. It is clear: you cannot support these arguments.
Considering you, you, you believe all of Revelation is pure symbolism....and you've cracked the code....the symbolism of "come up here" has been described to me by people like you as a "type" or shadow of the church being "caught up" just before chapter 6 unfolds.
Your record needle keeps sticking and can't get past the 30 second point of the song. Try actually answering the question for a change......Pretty Please...
LOL. I did. You avoided every point in the response, as you do. This avoidance sends a clear statement out to the reader: Pretribs cannot deal with the facts. We all know why: the doctrine does not add up. It cannot be supported by other Scripture.
Where is a future rapture mentioned in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Ironically, you argue that the absence of the word “Church” between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19 is proof that the Church must be in heaven.
LOL. So, it proves nothing! LOL. Talk about scraping the barrel. Welcome to Pretrib!!!
Nothing + nothing + nothing + nothing + nothing = nothing!
You sum Pretrib up better than I could ever.
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The passages on the tri-unity are there in one passage and clear. Pretrib has nothing but nothingness. Their proof-texts prove nothing.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Luke 3:21-23
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,
There isn't ONE verse..or even two or three...that says..."Jesus only comes back ONLY at the end of the tribulation".
Now, you can post a verse that says Jesus will come back at the end of the tribulation...but, it will not say Jesus only comes back once and only once at the end of the tribulation.
Over the last little while I've presented you with scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men that shows Jesus comes back in an even we call the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.
If you don't want to believe the scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men...then so be it.
