It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[sondring7]

You cannot answer any of his points. Hello! I wonder why?

Because the answers won't filter through like yours his tunnel vision, that's why :)

 

[WPM]

Because the answers won't filter through like yours his tunnel vision, that's why :)

No. You are a master at avoidance.

 

[sondring7]

No. You are a master at avoidance.

Let's see if you're a Master of Scripture .
Who did ALL THE APOSTLES in Gal 2:7-9 agree who would teach WPM the gospel ?

 

[WPM]

Let's see if you're a Master of Scripture .
Who did ALL THE APOSTLES in Gal 2:7-9 agree who would teach WPM the gospel ?

Address the many arguments above, instead of avoiding all of them.

 

[sondring7]

Address the many arguments above, instead of avoiding all of them.

Good, then you agree that ALL THE APOSTLES confirmed that Paul teaches you the Gospel
Now ask me a question :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Whatever Si, continue on your merry way :)

I see that you are not someone I can take seriously. Thanks for making that clear so that I don't waste any more time on you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You cannot answer any of his points. Hello! I wonder why?

He's in far over his head here just as all other pre-tribs are.

 

[gpresdo]

Exactly. That passage clearly indicates that Christ will come both with and for His people at the same time. The ones who are with Him will be the souls of the dead in Christ and then what will happen first is that their bodies will be resurrected (the dead in Christ shall rise first) and then they, along with those who are alive and remain until Christ's second coming, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. It couldn't be more clear and simple, yet pre-tribs still miss it. They try to say this passage describes when Jesus will come FOR his people and then 7 years later He comes with them. No, that is not taught anywhere in scripture. He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ. One event when He comes both with and for His people. That's it.

It's amazing to me when I see pre-tribs deny that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 relates to what will happen when the rapture occurs. Would they come to that conclusion if it wasn't for what is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 as happening on the same day? I highly doubt it.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How can anyone think that the day when Jesus "shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" is not the same day that we will be caught up to meet Him "in the air"? It clearly will be that same day and what else will happen on that same day is that Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". There will not be a 7 year tribulation following the rapture, there will immediately be vengeance taken against all unbelievers after the rapture occurs. That is what Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. And that can be seen in Revelation 14:14-20 as well.

Please explain then the rapture ...twinkling of an eye ...time period...as Christ appearance or just a divine event . That is a very short time frame for Christ to appear in. It is clear that Christ comes later with the saints....the 2nd advent.?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please explain then the rapture ...twinkling of an eye ...time period...as Christ appearance or just a divine event . That is a very short time frame for Christ to appear in. It is clear that Christ comes later with the saints....the 2nd advent.?

I don't know what you're talking about here. Scripture teaches that Jesus will come from heaven in the future in like manner as He ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). So, that's one future coming of Christ from heaven. Not two. On that day, scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they, together with believers who are alive and remain, will all be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. Then Jesus will take vengeance on all unbelievers in the world and destroy all of them with fire and "they shall not escape" (Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 4:14-5:4, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

 

[WPM]

Please explain then the rapture ...twinkling of an eye ...time period...as Christ appearance or just a divine event . That is a very short time frame for Christ to appear in. It is clear that Christ comes later with the saints....the 2nd advent.?

Read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

The catching away is the second coming. Read the text. This is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming.

This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

There is a catching away ("rapture") here, but no tribulation period following. That is because it is ongoing since the early Church. If Pretrib was true, this is where you would find it, but no, It is not here. Neither can you add it to the inspired text. That is forbidden. What follows Christ's climactic appearing then? Total destruction!

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.