James and Paul differ in three areas, salvation, prayer, and healing

[heretoeternity]

You do a lot of "I think" writing..why don't you use scripture to support your "I think"? FH

 

[FHII]

You do a lot of "I think" writing..why don't you use scripture to support your "I think"? FH

Well heretoeternity, I'm going under the assumption that those reading this thread have kept up with it. If so they no doubt understand we are talking about James 2, Acts 15 and 21:21. There is therefore no need to repeat them.

I am looking at the scripture and making a response to what someone else wrote based on reason and understanding. It happens all the time on message boards: its having a conversation about the scriptures.

I've even sen you do it every once in a while.

 

[kerwin]

FHII,

I assume I have your call sign correct. If not please correct me.

Let me cut to the chase. If James was speaking of "good works" I would say amen! If i substitute James saying "works" with what Paul describes as "good works" it actually does agree.

That is essentially what I posted to H.Riichard though the "good works" Paul was speaking of were the fruits while James used a larger context that included those that perished before the new covenant came to be. In either case faith in God impels one to do "good work". There is also a "faith" that does not impel since demons believe and yet are not impelled to do "good works". The later faith is dead, i.e. useless. I have to go so I hope to cover the rest of your post later.

 

[H. Richard]

FHII,

I assume I have your call sign correct. If not please correct me.

Let me cut to the chase. If James was speaking of "good works" I would say amen! If i substitute James saying "works" with what Paul describes as "good works" it actually does agree.

That is essentially what I posted to H.Riichard though the "good works" Paul was speaking of were the fruits while James used a larger context that included those that perished before the new covenant came to be. In either case faith in God impels one to do "good work". There is also a "faith" that does not impel since demons believe and yet are not impelled to do "good works". The later faith is dead, i.e. useless. I have to go so I hope to cover the rest of your post later.

Demons do believe that the work of Jesus on the cross paid for all the sins of mankind. After Paul received his gospel of God's grace Satan and his demons were beaten. Since God paid for the sins of mankind Satan now has to keep people from believing it. Where do you get it that demons have anything to do with good works? All demons do is the work of Satan.

A person's faith in what Jesus did for them on the cross is never a dead faith. The words faith, belief, trust, confidence all mean the same thing. I get tired of people using what James said to the Jews under the law pertains to those under grace. Read James 1:1. It plainly says he was writing to the Jews who were under the law. It is true that if your salvation is by the law then a person has to do those things under the law or they have no faith in the law. But those under grace are not under the law no mater how hard you try to place them there.

When will people understand that what I am saying is that good works will not save a person, period. Nor will they keep a person saved, period. The children of God are kept by His power, not theirs. They are not left to rely on their own power to not sin. God knows that the sinful flesh is weak that is why He has given us the gospel grace. The gospel of grace saves sinners, not the self-righteous. Have all you Bible people not red where Paul writes the God calls the thing that are not to be the things that are? Because He paid the price for all the sins of mankind He can call sinners to be righteous.

The children of God do the good works that God wants them to do. But good works are not REQUIRED for salvation. Jesus paid for the sins of all people, past, present, and future. If His payment for the sins of the whole world require a payment (good works) then it certainly is not a free gift. In this age of God's grace the only sin that condemns a person is the sin of unbelief; to not believe He paid for their sins

 

[FHII]

Richard,

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves. It is a gift from God. That's Eph 2.

Whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How shall they call on them whom they have not heard. And how shall they hear without a preacher?...... So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That's Romans 10.

Your quote about God calling those things which aren't as though they were is from Romans 4 where he was talking about a pre-law Abraham and the promise of Isaac. It was Abraham's faith that was the point of the story.

A better way for me to describe good works would've been those works that are of faith.

The free gift is available to all people and you don't have to do works to get it. BUT you do have to have faith. And that just doesn't miraculously appear.

 

[FHII]

Nothing but due respect for you, Richard...

I still feel inadequate in my effort to state my belief on this topic. Let me go a slightly different way.

Jesus was delivered for our offences and raised for oyr justification (romans 4,last verse). Even though the offence of one (Adam) caused judgment to come to all men, the free gift came to all men (ALL MEN) unto justification of life. Romans 5.

But it's only accessed through faith. So even though its for all, it only is working and true for those who have faith. It doesn't work for the athiest or even those who worship falsely. (Those that worship must worship in spirit and in truth -John 4:24).

Again, faith comes by hearing. And Hebrews 10 says that if we sin willfully the remains no more sacrifice for sin (and its right after the verse that says we shouldn't forsake the assembling).

So faith is indeed important and i conclude you must be active in faith. Not by keeping the law or being a do-gooder... But by giving him praise continuously and learning of him.

 

[heretoeternity]

Richard,

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves. It is a gift from God. That's Eph 2.

Whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How shall they call on them whom they have not heard. And how shall they hear without a preacher?...... So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That's Romans 10.

Your quote about God calling those things which aren't as though they were is from Romans 4 where he was talking about a pre-law Abraham and the promise of Isaac. It was Abraham's faith that was the point of the story.

A better way for me to describe good works would've been those works that are of faith.

The free gift is available to all people and you don't have to do works to get it. BUT you do have to have faith. And that just doesn't miraculously appear.









Paul said in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"and in Hebrews God said He will write thecommandments on their hearts and minds, and I will be their God, and they will be my people...if you do not have these written on your hearts and minds, you have toask the question who do you belong to?

 

[H. Richard]

Richard,

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves. It is a gift from God. That's Eph 2.

Whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How shall they call on them whom they have not heard. And how shall they hear without a preacher?...... So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That's Romans 10.

Your quote about God calling those things which aren't as though they were is from Romans 4 where he was talking about a pre-law Abraham and the promise of Isaac. It was Abraham's faith that was the point of the story.

A better way for me to describe good works would've been those works that are of faith.

The free gift is available to all people and you don't have to do works to get it. BUT you do have to have faith. And that just doesn't miraculously appear.









Paul said in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"and in Hebrews God said He will write thecommandments on their hearts and minds, and I will be their God, and they will be my people...if you do not have these written on your hearts and minds, you have toask the question who do you belong to?

"those works that are of faith" Care to give me an example of how you see this.?

The book of Hebrews is what Paul wrote to the Hebrews (Jews) explaining How Jesus was much better than the Law of Moses. Funny how you take one verse and add it to another to support your view of the commandments added to faith.

You can see that what Paul was saying was to the Jews only since the promise of God writing the law on hearts was made in:
Jer 31:33
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

And if you can see it, that promise was made to the house of Israel, not to the Gentles. In the Kingdom of God in which Jesus is the king on earth this promise will bare fruit.

 

[FHII]

"those works that are of faith" Care to give me an example of how you see this.?

Well, I think I already did. Grace through faith doesn't work for everyone. It works for those only who have faith. If you don't know how or where to get faith then nothing Jesus did is going to work for you.

It's a moot point, because whether or not you agree with me doesn't change the point that James wasn't talking about "good works".

 

[FHII]

FHII,

I assume I have your call sign correct. If not please correct me.


Let me cut to the chase. If James was speaking of "good works" I would say amen! If i substitute James saying "works" with what Paul describes as "good works" it actually does agree.

That is essentially what I posted to H.Riichard though the "good works" Paul was speaking of were the fruits while James used a larger context that included those that perished before the new covenant came to be. In either case faith in God impels one to do "good work". There is also a "faith" that does not impel since demons believe and yet are not impelled to do "good works". The later faith is dead, i.e. useless. I have to go so I hope to cover the rest of your post later.

Kerwin,

That's fine. I do believe in "spiritual work" or "good works", and I believe they are thing pertaining to God's works. That even includes obedience which others like to hammer on. The difference is that i believe in obediance to the law of faith, most others speak of obedience to the law of Moses. In short.... You must have faith, and the Bible tells us how to obtain it.

But again, i don't believe this was what James was speaking of because of what is written in the book of acts.

 

[kerwin]

FHII,

This is where Richard's writings about Acts cones into play. I realized parts of it before i even read what he wrote. He brought some new understanding to me as well.

What Acts shows us is that while James did relieve gentiles of most of the law (most prominately, circumcision) he still laid some rules down for the gentiles.

Paul reported the ruling.... But did he enforce it? Not really.

The second thing from Acts we learn is that James never removed the law for Jewish Christians. Paul did! His preaching that the law of faith works for the uncircumcision as well. His point was that its the only law that DOES work.

I know in Acts 15 that James and the leaders of the church in Jerusalem wrote a letter to the Gentiles but their requirements were similar to that Jews teach are necessary for Gentiles to this day. It is called the seven laws of Noah. Paul explicitly stated that James and the leaders of reputation added nothing to his message. Instead Paul and James preached against those who insisted Gentiles must live by Jewish customs, even though those customs were given to the Jews by God in the Law of Moses. That Part of Paul, and James, teaching is still preached by unbelieving Jews to this day. Jonah was sent to the Gentiles and they did not become Jews but instead repented of their sins. Romans 14 covers the teaching Paul is putting into action by teaching the Jews not to condemn the Gentiles for not adhering to Jewish customs.

 

[FHII]

FHII,


This is where Richard's writings about Acts cones into play. I realized parts of it before i even read what he wrote. He brought some new understanding to me as well.

What Acts shows us is that while James did relieve gentiles of most of the law (most prominately, circumcision) he still laid some rules down for the gentiles.

Paul reported the ruling.... But did he enforce it? Not really.

The second thing from Acts we learn is that James never removed the law for Jewish Christians. Paul did! His preaching that the law of faith works for the uncircumcision as well. His point was that its the only law that DOES work.

I know in Acts 15 that James and the leaders of the church in Jerusalem wrote a letter to the Gentiles but their requirements were similar to that Jews teach are necessary for Gentiles to this day. It is called the seven laws of Noah. Paul explicitly stated that James and the leaders of reputation added nothing to his message. Instead Paul and James preached against those who insisted Gentiles must live by Jewish customs, even though those customs were given to the Jews by God in the Law of Moses. That Part of Paul, and James, teaching is still preached by unbelieving Jews to this day. Jonah was sent to the Gentiles and they did not become Jews but instead repented of their sins. Romans 14 covers the teaching Paul is putting into action by teaching the Jews not to condemn the Gentiles for not adhering to Jewish customs.

Kerwin,

First off, I have never heard of the 7 laws of Noah. I did a quick wikipedia search and will look more into it. But they don't fit what James said in acts 15 (based on what I've read) again... I will look into it more.

But in Gal 2.... Paul (according to the KJV) didn't say they added nothing to his message. He said those who seemed to be pillars added nothing to him. I don't think it was a compliment.

Here's another thing. Under grace, there is no difference between Jews and gentiles. The law of Faith is the same for both. Some say the gentiles were never under the law (I disagree, but haven't expounded on why). Some also say that there is a different law for Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. I also disagree with that. Yet when you read Acts 15, 21 carefully you see that James never truely released Jews from the law.

And that, Kerwin, shows in James' epistle.

 

[kerwin]

FHII,

We are wishy washy about Christianity today accepting many gospels as the one true gospel. Those that wrote the new testament were not so tolerant. Look at Paul's words on the matter.

Galatians 1:8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
The bottom line is we have been many ways of interpreting Scripture that cannot be true because they break Scripture and unless Jesus lied Scripture cannot be broken. Therefore if James preaches the gospel then he teaches the same thing as Paul and visa versa.
I am confident both teach the truth so I look how they teach the same truths in different ways. I have presented what I have found.

 

[FHII]

FHII,

We are wishy washy about Christianity today accepting many gospels as the one true gospel. Those that wrote the new testament were not so tolerant. Look at Paul's words on the matter.



Galatians 1:8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The bottom line is we have been many ways of interpreting Scripture that cannot be true because they break Scripture and unless Jesus lied Scripture cannot be broken. Therefore if James preaches the gospel then he teaches the same thing as Paul and visa versa.
I am confident both teach the truth so I look how they teach the same truths in different ways. I have presented what I have found.

Kerwin,

Yes, we as a society and a dispensation are wishy washy. That doesn't mean all individuals are. I am not and frankly, while i believe many are wrong on this forum, I don't see too many that are reeds shaking in the wind. Wrong? Yes. Wishy washy? No. Even the one I disagree with the most on this forum, i can't accuse of being wishy washy. I respect that.

When Paul said that, he was throwing down a powerful guantlet. And i absolutely see no way other than to interpret it as he was saying those men that came from James were wrong and Peter was wrong.

He said Peter was to be blamed and he detailed a verbal and public confrontation! Are you going to deny that?

To say that scripture does not contradict itself doesn't mean that the apostles never had issues. Paul pretty much pissed off everyone! James. Peter. John. Barnabas. Even Titus left perhaps for a while.

The end result is truth. I agree with that.

Overall, Acts and the Epistles does document a difference between James and Paul. That doesn't mean the Bible contradicts itself because it documents the contradiction.

If you disagree, please give your commentary on Acts 21. Just to start.

The book of James... 100% truth! And good advice! But James was behind on the message of grace. I stand by that based on the scrioures I've mention, and a few I haven't mentioned like comparing Romans 4 to James 2. But even there is agrement. Beung justified by works only happens in the eyes of men. Not God.

James and Paul are in agreement with that.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

Demons do believe that the work of Jesus on the cross paid for all the sins of mankind. After Paul received his gospel of God's grace Satan and his demons were beaten. Since God paid for the sins of mankind Satan now has to keep people from believing it. Where do you get it that demons have anything to do with good works? All demons do is the work of Satan.

Even Demons are under grace for no one can give God anything. Mind you that they will not like God's grace to them as it is their destruction. The grace Paul often speaks of it that of having received received the Spirit which comes by faith in Jesus Christ and can be walked according by that same faith. There also is the fact that faith itself comes through grace but even Abraham, who lived before the old covenant, received that grace.

The faith of demons does give birth to works and that is they shiver in horror because they know they are doomed.

You are correct that demons only do the works of the flesh; even when they appear to be good.

 

[kerwin]

FHII,

Teachers are judged more strictly than students for the earlier claims they know but the later are still learning.

The issue is that James both are seen as teachers and so if one is in error then that one is found to be a false teacher and his writings do not belong in Scripture.

H.Richard is mistaken about what Paul teaches because he puts his faith in a teaching that is more open to misunderstanding.


Galatians 5:16-24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
In this passage Paul literally teaches us those that do the things of the flesh will not be saved and then goes on to state that bear the fruit of the Spirit are not under the Law for they do not violate it. Since Paul does not teach multiple gospels it follows that these words are the words of "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24) even though they speak of bearing the fruit, i.e. works, of the Spirit. After all God not only gave his Son but through him the Spirit and the power to bear the fruits thereof. A believer both receives and walks according to the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:17 & 3:21-22) It is a learning experience which is why Jesus claimed the Spirit would teach us all things.

 

[H. Richard]

FHII,

Teachers are judged more strictly than students for the earlier claims they know but the later are still learning.

The issue is that James both are seen as teachers and so if one is in error then that one is found to be a false teacher and his writings do not belong in Scripture.

H.Richard is mistaken about what Paul teaches because he puts his faith in a teaching that is more open to misunderstanding.

Galatians 5:16-24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
In this passage Paul literally teaches us those that do the things of the flesh will not be saved and then goes on to state that bear the fruit of the Spirit are not under the Law for they do not violate it. Since Paul does not teach multiple gospels it follows that these words are the words of "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24) even though they speak of bearing the fruit, i.e. works, of the Spirit. After all God not only gave his Son but through him the Spirit and the power to bear the fruits thereof. A believer both receives and walks according to the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:17 & 3:21-22) It is a learning experience which is why Jesus claimed the Spirit would teach us all things.

All I have claimed is that James was writing to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses (James 1:1) and Paul is writing to those under grace. James writing was consistent with the law but Paul's writings were not consistent with the law. --- I have explained it but you have not.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

I have explained it but it seems to be hard to understand. Perhaps because I have more background than my hearers.

The fruits of the Spirit are consistent with the righteous requirements of the Law of Moses. Even Jews believe much of their Law simply does not apply to Gentiles. Walking according to the teachings of the Spirit performs the righteous works of the Law. (Romans 2:25-26)


Romans 2:14-16Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
In short Paul's writings are consistent with the Law. He is just teaching a) That there is a new and superior way to do what is written in the Law and b) That Jews are not to force their God-given customs on Gentiles by disguising it as part of the gospel.

 

[Mozzie]

I have wondered greatly about this faith without works is dead, then it saying all we need is faith and not works. I used to go out on the door to door ministry for the JWs many years ago, cause they push this scriptures into you, it is like you have to earn salvation, i am learning that it is through grace. I often still ask, if it is by works as well, what works? I mean there is only one way to spread the gospel, Jesus said to go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. It get confusing for me at times..

 

[H. Richard]

I have wondered greatly about this faith without works is dead, then it saying all we need is faith and not works. I used to go out on the door to door ministry for the JWs many years ago, cause they push this scriptures into you, it is like you have to earn salvation, i am learning that it is through grace. I often still ask, if it is by works as well, what works? I mean there is only one way to spread the gospel, Jesus said to go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. It get confusing for me at times..

In my opinion Jesus gave us grace through the gospel of grace given to Paul. It is a gospel that Jesus did everything necessary for a person to be a child of God. For a person to say he/she is doing works for salvation is, in my opinion, a slap in Jesus' face.

God has made a way for sinners to be saved and all the glory goes to His Son, Jesus Christ. The children of God are righteous because they believe, have faith, in His work on the cross. Sinful flesh can not be made perfect.