James and Paul differ in three areas, salvation, prayer, and healing

[FHII]

H.Richard,

I have explained it but it seems to be hard to understand. Perhaps because I have more background than my hearers.

The fruits of the Spirit are consistent with the righteous requirements of the Law of Moses. Even Jews believe much of their Law simply does not apply to Gentiles. Walking according to the teachings of the Spirit performs the righteous works of the Law. (Romans 2:25-26)
Romans 2:14-16Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

In short Paul's writings are consistent with the Law. He is just teaching a) That there is a new and superior way to do what is written in the Law and b) That Jews are not to force their God-given customs on Gentiles by disguising it as part of the gospel.

It really sounds like you are more of a supporter of thr law than i previously thought.

 

[kerwin]

FHII,

I am a supporter of the works of the Spirit so I am a supporter of the works of the Law.


Romans 13:9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The Law is a top down ethical code while the Spirit is a change in one's nature. It is impossible to do what the Law requires without the Spirit and with the Spirit one does what the Law requires even when they do not have the Law. Paul addressed those that would set aside the Spirit in order to keep the Law with their fallen human nature.
Some of Paul's ideas are hard to understand because there are those that do not view his words from the same viewpoint. For example, that laws are only for lawbreakers for it is not illegal to do what is good and so those who walk according to the Spirit are under grace and not under the Law. On the other hand the one who is not doing the things of the Law is under grace but is under the Law because they are Lawbreakers.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

In my opinion Jesus gave us grace through the gospel of grace given to Paul. It is a gospel that Jesus did everything necessary for a person to be a child of God. For a person to say he/she is doing works for salvation is, in my opinion, a slap in Jesus' face.

God has made a way for sinners to be saved and all the glory goes to His Son, Jesus Christ. The children of God are righteous because they believe, have faith, in His work on the cross. Sinful flesh can not be made perfect.

The passage I read in Acts attributed the grace to God and not Jesus though the grace comes though Jesus Christ that first sacrificed himself for the whole world and second mediates the new covenant in heaven. One both receives the Spirit and walks according to it by faith and so they do the works of the Spirit but that is only possible by God's power so there is no room for boasting. Even faith comes by grace.

 

[H. Richard]

H.Richard,

In my opinion Jesus gave us grace through the gospel of grace given to Paul. It is a gospel that Jesus did everything necessary for a person to be a child of God. For a person to say he/she is doing works for salvation is, in my opinion, a slap in Jesus' face.

God has made a way for sinners to be saved and all the glory goes to His Son, Jesus Christ. The children of God are righteous because they believe, have faith, in His work on the cross. Sinful flesh can not be made perfect.

The passage I read in Acts attributed the grace to God and not Jesus though the grace comes though Jesus Christ that first sacrificed himself for the whole world and second mediates the new covenant in heaven. One both receives the Spirit and walks according to it by faith and so they do the works of the Spirit but that is only possible by God's power so there is no room for boasting. Even faith comes by grace.

All are under sin:

It was asked by someone “would God ask us to do what we couldn’t do?“

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
NKJV

Galatians 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

In this age of God’s grace salvation in not obtained by “not sinning in the flesh.” It is only obtained by a person placing their belief in the work of God on the cross. That means for a person to deny that they can do anything righteous to save him/her self and to simply place all their faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross. To claim His work on our behalf is our salvation. Jesus (God) gets all the glory and praise.

In this age of God’s grace all God asks a person to do is trust in His plan of salvation by placing their faith in His Son’s work on the cross. It is the only way that a person can be saved and yet many do not believe it is that simple.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

Perhaps the people that Paul addressed in Romans 3:9-19 had a longer attention span but he takes a while to come to his point in verse 19 that what the Law says it says to those under the Law. Christians are not under the Law and so those words do apply except in a historic sense. Before a person, whether Jew or Gentile, receives the Spirit they are a slave to sin because their only choice is to walk according to the flesh. It only receiving the Spirit that sets them free from serving sin and gives them the choice to serve righteousness instead. Paul covers this in Romans 6 while his words in Romans 3 reveal that both Jews and Gentiles are equal in that they have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.


Luke 1:5-6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This testimony reveals that the Law could be kept and that is simply because forgiveness of sins was written into it. It did not sanctify anyone but instead allowed them to make sacrifices year after year as a symbol of things to come. It is the Spirit that cleanses believers and that was not given in the old covenant. The Spirit one can receive because Jesus chose to sacrifice himself on the cross.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

In this age of God’s grace salvation in not obtained by “not sinning in the flesh.” It is only obtained by a person placing their belief in the work of God on the cross. That means for a person to deny that they can do anything righteous to save him/her self and to simply place all their faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross. To claim His work on our behalf is our salvation. Jesus (God) gets all the glory and praise.

Your point of view is a little off. When Paul instructs us to walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh then he is instructing us to deny our selves for the reason that the flesh is our fallen nature. (Galatians 5) It is that "self" that cannot do anything right while the Spirit cannot do anything wrong.

 

[heretoeternity]

H.Richard,

Perhaps the people that Paul addressed in Romans 3:9-19 had a longer attention span but he takes a while to come to his point in verse 19 that what the Law says it says to those under the Law. Christians are not under the Law and so those words do apply except in a historic sense. Before a person, whether Jew or Gentile, receives the Spirit they are a slave to sin because their only choice is to walk according to the flesh. It only receiving the Spirit that sets them free from serving sin and gives them the choice to serve righteousness instead. Paul covers this in Romans 6 while his words in Romans 3 reveal that both Jews and Gentiles are equal in that they have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Not under the Mosaic law, the 613 sacrificial laws of Moses, that is correct...you should learn to distinguish between the law of Moses and the law of God, the ten commandments written by God Himself....
Acts 15 eliminates the 613 laws of Moses with the exception of the four mentioned...
The law of God goes on forever, as Jesus pointed out in Matthew 5, Heaven and earth will pass away but nothing will be changed in the law.
And Paul says in Romans 2 We are justified by doing the law, not just hearing it. and in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law...

 

[kerwin]

heretoeternity,

God gave the whole Law through Moses. That literally means that it is the Law of God. The 613 is a third century Jewish teaching and we have no evidence that even the Pharisees of Jesus' mortality knew it. Someone created a teaching to explain where their ideas disagrees with Scripture but Paul teaches us that if a could have been given that gave life then the Law would have been it. It is therefore not a new Law that gives life but rather the Spirit.


Galatians 3:19-21Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

 

[H. Richard]

Not under the Mosaic law, the 613 sacrificial laws of Moses, that is correct...you should learn to distinguish between the law of Moses and the law of God, the ten commandments written by God Himself....
Acts 15 eliminates the 613 laws of Moses with the exception of the four mentioned...
The law of God goes on forever, as Jesus pointed out in Matthew 5, Heaven and earth will pass away but nothing will be changed in the law.
And Paul says in Romans 2 We are justified by doing the law, not just hearing it. and in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law...

If the Law of Moses could save a person it would still be in effect. God saw that people living in sinful flesh could never keep His perfect laws. Then He shows us the way we can be saved without trying to keep the Law of Moses. Jesus (God) kept the law of Moses for us.

Even though this is explained in the scriptures religious man still thinks he has to keep the law himself. That is because they do not have belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross to save them. They think their works should save them. Hummmm that is what Cain thought isn't it? The scripture show us that man can not keep the Law of Moses

God told both Cain and Able that a blood sacrifice was necessary. Able gave a blood sacrifice but Cain insisted that God except the works of his hands as his sacrifice. Did God except the works of Cain?

 

[kerwin]

Heretoeternity,

I made a vague statement due to an assumption on my part.

Someone created a teaching to explain where their ideas disagrees with Scripture but Paul teaches us that if a could have been given that gave life then the Law would have been it.

This is the beginning of a new topic and the "someone" I am referring to is the one that invented the idea that the Law of God and the Law of Moses are different. Paul counters that invention with his words in Galatians 3:19-21. I hope that clarifies what I post previously.

 

[heretoeternity]

Heretoeternity,

I made a vague statement due to an assumption on my part.

Someone created a teaching to explain where their ideas disagrees with Scripture but Paul teaches us that if a could have been given that gave life then the Law would have been it.

This is the beginning of a new topic and the "someone" I am referring to is the one that invented the idea that the Law of God and the Law of Moses are different. Paul counters that invention with his words in Galatians 3:19-21. I hope that clarifies what I post previously.



You are totally confused and misled by lots of false teaching you have obviously had, without checking you Bible...
Paul upholds the law of God, the ten commandments in Romans when he says "it is DOERS of the law which are justified, not hearers of the law" and in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law"....and read the writings of Apostle John, 1st John..."sin is transgression of God's law" and "the Commandments are not burdensome".....hope this helps you in your attempt to become a christian.

 

[kerwin]

Heretoeternity,

You keep using the word Law as a synonym of the Ten Commandments when it is not though I am fairly sure there are times when the Ten symbolizes the Law.

Paul is stating it is not the hearers of the books of Moses that are righteous but those that do all the applicable commandments that are written in those pages.

His point is that it is those that walk according to the Spirit that do what is written in the Law. No human could walk by the Spirit before the new covenant was established.

"do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law" is true because one both receives and walks according to the Spirit by faith from first to last.

John is referring to Love as the Law of God since it is the sum of the Law of Moses and in regards to its fruits the Spirit is the Spirit of Godly Love.

 

[H. Richard]

Heretoeternity,

You keep using the word Law as a synonym of the Ten Commandments when it is not though I am fairly sure there are times when the Ten symbolizes the Law.

Paul is stating it is not the hearers of the books of Moses that are righteous but those that do all the applicable commandments that are written in those pages.

His point is that it is those that walk according to the Spirit that do what is written in the Law. No human could walk by the Spirit before the new covenant was established.

"do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law" is true because one both receives and walks according to the Spirit by faith from first to last.

John is referring to Love as the Law of God since it is the sum of the Law of Moses and in regards to its fruits the Spirit is the Spirit of Godly Love.

Yours is a false interpretation of what Paul said. Paul was showing those that want to be under law that they have to keep the whole law by saying it is not the hearers of the law but the keeping of the law. He was showing that those who want to be under the law must keep the whole law.

You seem to forget, and I am sure it is on purpose, that those under grace are not under the law. Your last sentence condemns you because no one in sinful flesh can love a godly love. One thing I have noticed is that those who want to put the children of God under the law think that they are sinless and keep the law.


The Pharisees thought they were keeping the law and all the time they were plotting murder. It is the same with those that wish to place others under the burden of the law. They don't keep the law themselves but insist that they do. These are so busy looking at others sins that they refuse to look into their own heart

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

Are you accusing Paul of speaking falsehoods as he is the one that teaches us those that walk according to the Spirit do not sin as lawbreaking is the works of the flesh not me.

Galatians 5:16-23New King James Version (NKJV)

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[SIZE=.625em][a][/SIZE]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[SIZE=.625em][b][/SIZE] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.


Footnotes:

1. 
   Galatians 5:19 NU-Text omits adultery.
   
2. 
   Galatians 5:21 NU-Text omits murders.
   

He literally states that it is those that are led by the Spirit that are not under the Law. In short, by that wording he infers that are led by the flesh and therefore do the works of the flesh are under the Law.

I assure you that Peter is correct when he states some of what Paul states is hard to understand and even Paul had to address points where people misunderstood him. James is probably addressing those that misunderstand Paul when he states "faith without works is dead". Paul is actually the same thing in Galatians 5:16-23 but many seem to miss it even though it is fairly clear.

 

[heretoeternity]

Richard you are still confused between the sacriicial law of Moses and the ten commandments..you are obviously blinded to the truth...
If you are walking with God's Holy spirit, then you will have no problem following God's ten commandments..if you do not believe in the ten commandments you are obviously walking to the beat of the god of this world.

 

[H. Richard]

Richard you are still confused between the sacriicial law of Moses and the ten commandments..you are obviously blinded to the truth...
If you are walking with God's Holy spirit, then you will have no problem following God's ten commandments..if you do not believe in the ten commandments you are obviously walking to the beat of the god of this world.

I will reply to you once more. Your trying to separate the Law into two sections is your folly, not mine. When Paul wrote the words "we are not under the law" he did not fine it necessary to do what you are doing and neither do I. You think you are perfect because you think you are keeping the law. That is your problem and I will leave you with it. You will have to answer to God for it, not me.

 

[heretoeternity]

I will reply to you once more. Your trying to separate the Law into two sections is your folly, not mine. When Paul wrote the words "we are not under the law" he did not fine it necessary to do what you are doing and neither do I. You think you are perfect because you think you are keeping the law. That is your problem and I will leave you with it. You will have to answer to God for it, not me.



You should try reading the Bible and getting rid of all that false teaching you have endured from the satanic based so called "christian" churches.

 

[kerwin]

Heretoeternity,

H.Richard is correct since there is nowhere that it is written that the ten commandments are separate than the sacrificial parts of the Law.

You are holding to a teach that I not only have not read in Scripture but one that the may not have existed before the 19th Century.

You have already heard from others quotes from Scripture that reveal your teaching breaks from it and yet you continue to insist you are correct. That is a sign of denial and I am ill equipped to deal with it so that puts an end to rational debate on this particular subject.

 

[heretoeternity]

Learn to differentiate between the sacricifical, feast, circumcison festival etc law of Moses, written my Moses...these ended in Act 15 with the exception of the four mentioned..
God's law the ten Commandments was written by God Himself, and goes on forever,as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 5.