Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

[stunnedbygrace]

You're quoting all the verses that show Jesus' humbled state as a man (Philippians 2:6-8)

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Thought I saw something in there I’d never quite understood before so I looked it up in some other translations. I DID see it. Here’s NASB
6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be [a]grasped, 7 but [b]emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and [c]being born in the likeness of men.8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death [d]on a cross.9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[stormymonday]

Don't you get tired of promoting the false doctrine of the Trinity?

People are catching on since a recent survey shows over 40% of Evangelicals now believe Jesus is not God. Most of them are afraid to admit it publicly. I was in the Trinitarian closet from 1973 to 2005. E.W. Bullinger stayed in it until two weeks before he passed because he knew that his works would've never been published had he stepped out.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus is the Son of God no one is denying this that says Jesus is God incarnate.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

When did God shed his blood to purchase the church of God If Jesus was not God?

That is excellent! I’ve never yet heard anyone use that verse in the debate. Very strong!

No, not strong at all really.....in fact the English translation does not convey what is said in the Greek text.

Here it is in the Mounce Interlinear....
"shepherd poimainō the ho church ekklēsia of ho God theos, which hos he purchased peripoieō with dia the ho blood haima of ho his own idios Son."
The Mounce has added a word which is implied, but not stated....the word "son" which is not in the Greek text.
Other translations also render this verse correctly so as not to mislead. These include...the CEB, CJB, GNT, LEB, NET, NRSVCE, RSV, and the Voice.

What IS there, is that "ho theos" (Yahweh) purchased "the church" with "the blood of his own"....not "his own blood".

Greek phraseology is not the same as English and the translators know it....this is nothing more than trinitarian bias at work once again.
The devil can't change the words of scripture but he can manipulate how words are translated to give a totally erroneous impression of what they say.

 

[David H.]

No, not strong at all really.....in fact the English translation does not convey what is said in the Greek text.

Here it is in the Mounce Interlinear....
"shepherd poimainō the ho church ekklēsia of ho God theos, which hos he purchased peripoieō with dia the ho blood haima of ho his own idios Son."
The Mounce has added a word which is implied, but not stated....the word "son" which is not in the Greek text.
Other translations also render this verse correctly so as not to mislead. These include...the CEB, CJB, GNT, LEB, NET, NRSVCE, RSV, and the Voice.

What IS there, is that "ho theos" (Yahweh) purchased "the church" with "the blood of his own"....not "his own blood".

Greek phraseology is not the same as English and the translators know it....this is nothing more than trinitarian bias at work once again.
The devil can't change the words of scripture but he can manipulate how words are translated to give a totally erroneous impression of what they say.

Heard that one many times in response before, the fact is that God shed his blood to purchase the church. HIS OWN BLOOD, that of the only Begotten Son of God. Only the Blood of God has the power to cleanse ALL sin not merely temporarily atone for it as the blood of Bulls and Goats, or children as the sacrifices to Molech claimed. If Jesus was not God His death is like the death of any other man.... worthless.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be [a]grasped, 7 but [b]emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and [c]being born in the likeness of men.

It’s quite amazing. He gave up everything He had, His wealth, His life with God, His equality with God. You could almost even say…He “died” to His life to have us.
And now we must give up our life, everything we have, to have Him.
It just…swallows up speech and leaves you silently shocked at all you still DONT see.

 

[David H.]

Where is Jesus called "God the Son?" Where is the holy spirit called, "God the holy spirit?" And while you're at it, what's the holy spirit's name anyway?

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)

When was God manifest in the flesh? In the Son of God, God incarnate.

Acts 5:1-5 we see Ananias lying to the Holy Ghost and see it equated to lying to God. Thus lying to the Holy Ghost is lying to God.

 

[David H.]

It’s quite amazing. He gave up everything He had, His wealth, His life with God, His equality with God. You could almost even say…He “died” to His life to have us.
And now we must give up our life, everything we have, to have Him.
It just…swallows up speech and leaves you silently shocked at all you still DONT see.

Amazing Love indeed....

1. Alas! and did my Savior bleed
   And did my Sov’reign die?
   Would He devote that sacred head
   For such a worm as I?
2. Was it for crimes that I had done
   He groaned upon the tree?
   Amazing pity! grace unknown!
   And love beyond degree!
3. Well might the sun in darkness hide
   And shut his glories in,
   When Christ, the mighty Maker died,
   For man the creature’s sin.
4. Thus might I hide my blushing face
   While His dear cross appears,
   Dissolve my heart in thankfulness,
   And melt my eyes to tears.
5. But drops of grief can ne’er repay
   The debt of love I owe:
   Here, Lord, I give myself away,
   ’Tis all that I can do.
   • Refrain (Hudson):
     At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
     And the burden of my heart rolled away,
     It was there by faith I received my sight,
     And now I am happy all the day!

Alas! and Did My Savior Bleed > Lyrics | Isaac Watts

Lyrics: Isaac Watts

library.timelesstruths.org

 

[Aunty Jane]

Heard that one many times in response before, the fact is that God shed his blood to purchase the church. HIS OWN BLOOD, that of the only Begotten Son of God.

Read what you just said again...."HIS OWN BLOOD, that of the only begotten son of God"....can a Father be his own son?

Can you call your son your own blood? Of course you can!

What does "only begotten" mean? Is it a term that applies only to Jesus? If you know your Bible, you will know that it simply means "an only child". In order to be "begotten", a child needs a 'begetter' who existed before him. No father and son can come into existence at the same time.
These familial terms are not what humans gave to God and his Christ, but are terms that they gave to themselves. Why would these terms be used if humans were not to understand the relationship?

Can an immortal God die? Can mere humans kill God? That is ridiculous! An immortal cannot die....so was Jesus an immortal God who only pretended to die.....or was he a mortal human who was the equivalent of Adam so that the could redeem mankind??

Do you know what redemption is? Jesus did not need to be "God incarnate" to redeem mankind....all he needed to be was the equivalent of the first sinless man. "Sinless" does not ="God"....it simply means 'without the sin of Adam'.
If Jesus was God then the overpayment would have been equivalent to a thousand trillion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito.

God could not ransom the human race because it required equivalency.......that is what "atonement" means....."at-one-ment"....'like for like"....."one for one". God could never be equal to his own creation.

Only the Blood of God has the power to cleanse ALL sin not merely temporarily atone for it as the blood of Bulls and Goats, or children as the sacrifices to Molech claimed. If Jesus was not God His death is like the death of any other man.... worthless.

God doesn't have blood. Christ's death is apparently not understood by those who believe that God had to come to earth in mortal flesh to redeem his human children. Even an angel would have paid too much if he had materialized and offered his flesh.
The ransomer had to be the exact payment.....'a sinless life for a sinless life'....Yahweh could never be that, so he "SENT" the one who could. (John 17:3; John 3:16)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s ridiculousness David H! You try to say God does what it is impossible for God to do! Stop that! All things are not possible for God!

 

[Robert Gwin]

John 17:11-13, "And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost,[c] so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves."

In context, when Jesus says "that they may be one, as we are one", He is clearly talking about himself and His father, not His disciples. Being ONE simply states that they are one. It doesn't "imply" anything.

Yes, but our understanding of what they meant does Jim. Many people take that to mean that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person, rather than being in unity as he expounded on in the verses you posted.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I just pushed “reply”. That was what you said. See for yourself…
Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

Go back and look Phil, I quoted what you said sir, that is not my belief at all. Likely it was a simple mistake, so no problem, heck it happens to me as well. I am still learning how to post as well. Post # 448 second line.

 

[Keturah]

What a lame title for this thread, sorry.

If Moses wrote Genesis we see in the beginning and GOD said.........No name any man can give or call the creator is above another with one exception and that name is  JESUS !

In fact God told Moses to tell the children of Abraham that the " I am" was sending him for their deliverance.

Now don't strain your bowels folks,I am not interested in the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or whatever root word you can think of to attack this.

" I am" is  PRESENT, not I was or I will be ! A God who is ever present, whose ear is not deaf nor arm to short that he refuses to be our shield and buckler.

 

[David H.]

God doesn't have blood.

Then how did he purchase his church with his own blood and beget a Son? Your circular reasoning is not working here. There is no power to REMIT sins in human blood.... otherwise all those Molech worshippers killing babies would have been the most "forgiven people" alive. What makes Jesus' blood so special to cleanse you of sin.... not just atone for sin as the blood of bulls and goats did, but to remove it all once for all? When you finally figure that out you will denounce Charles Taze Russel as the false Prophet he was.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What a lame title for this thread, sorry.

There is no need for that. Just because you disagree, doesn’t meant that you have to be mean spirited. State your views and allow others to respond. There are many opinions here and everyone can have a voice.

If Moses wrote Genesis we see in the beginning and GOD said.........No name any man can give or call the creator is above another with one exception and that name is  JESUS !

Genesis 2:4 is where God’s personal name first appears in the scriptures.....and since Moses had a direct line to God through his appointed “Logos”, (the one who always served as God’s spokesman from the beginning).....I think that Moses is to be believed rather than someone on an Internet forum who begs to differ with him.
It wasnt any man who gave a name to God....it was Yahweh himself who restated his name to his people through Moses.

In fact God told Moses to tell the children of Abraham that the " I am" was sending him for their deliverance.

Now don't strain your bowels folks,I am not interested in the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or whatever root word you can think of to attack this.

" I am" is  PRESENT, not I was or I will be ! A God who is ever present, whose ear is not deaf nor arm to short that he refuses to be our shield and buckler.

It is not possible to reason with someone whose mind is closed. If you are not interested in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, then the languages of the Bible are closed to you.

If you read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh, then you will see that “I Am” is not the only valid translation of God’s name, and that there is no connection whatsoever with John 8:58. Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his status as a deity.

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

(https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864)

God’s name “יְהֹוָ֞ה” is clearly seen in the Hebrew text. And it’s meaning is expressed as (I will be what I will be). This is not just a statement of his existence because the Jews already knew who “the God of their forefathers” was....this is also a statement of his intentions towards his people now that he had liberated them from Egypt. He would “be” or “become” whatever he needed to be in order for his purpose to be carried out in connection with them.....he would produce his Messiah. But if you read Israel’s history, you will understand why God had to adapt so many times to their errant behavior.

Listen and learn...a closed mind is not worth having.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Then how did he purchase his church with his own blood and beget a Son? Your circular reasoning is not working here. There is no power to REMIT sins in human blood.... otherwise all those Molech worshippers killing babies would have been the most "forgiven people" alive. What makes Jesus' blood so special to cleanse you of sin.... not just atone for sin as the blood of bulls and goats did, but to remove it all once for all?

If you understand redemption as the Jews understood it, you would not have to ask that question.

A man who owed a debt could be forced into slavery to the debtor until the debt was paid in full. But a relative or a benefactor could free that man from his slavery if he paid the debtor the exact amount that was owed. The slave was then released from his debt.

Adam threw the entire human race into slavery to sin and death, and only the correct price could free them.....it had to be the equivalent of what was owed.....and in this case it was “a life for a life”. (Deuteronomy 19:15-21)

No existing human on earth could pay the ransom because all of Adam’s children were now sinful. In order to redeem mankind and atone for Adam’s sin, another sinless life had to be offered to balance the scales of God’s perfect justice.
As explained, God could not offer himself because the price was way to high.....it had to be the correct price and only God’s son could offer it. It was his Father who transferred his lifeforce to create a perfect, sinless human child, who would offer his life for the one Adam forfeited for all his children. (Romans 5:18-19)

Life from Adam came with a firing squad and certain death....Jesus stood in front of all Adam’s children and took the bullet meant for them.

 

[Keturah]

There is no need for that. Just because you disagree, doesn’t meant that you have to be mean spirited. State your views and allow others to respond. There are many opinions here and everyone can have a voice.

Genesis 2:4 is where God’s personal name first appears in the scriptures.....and since Moses had a direct line to God through his appointed “Logos”, (the one who always served as God’s spokesman from the beginning).....I think that Moses is to be believed rather than someone on an Internet forum who begs to differ with him.
It wasnt any man who gave a name to God....it was Yahweh himself who resisted his name to his people through Moses.

It is not possible to reason with someone whose mind is closed. If you are not interested in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, then the languages of the Bible is closed to you.

If you read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh, then you will see that “I Am” is not the only valid translation of God’s name, and that there is no connection whatsoever with John 8:58. Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his status as a deity.

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

(https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864)

God’s name “יְהֹוָ֞ה” is clearly seen in the Hebrew text. And it’s meaning is expressed as (I will be what I will be). This is not just a statement of his existence because the Jews already knew who “the God of their forefathers” was....this is also a statement of his intentions towards his people now that he had liberated them from Egypt. He would “be” or “become” whatever he needed to be in order for his purpose to be carried out in connection with them.....he would produce his Messiah. But if you read Israel’s history, you will understand why God had to adapt so many times to their errant behavior.

Listen and learn...a closed mind is not worth having.

Who are you?

I can tell you who you are not.
My  God, my boss nor my mother. YOU HAVE ZERO AUTHORITY OVER ME !

This obviously is a JW thread and this must be what you believe,I am truly sorry for your loss.

I was not being mean spirited as you say but drawing the rotten fruit forward to see.

I am well aquatinted with forums,opinions and folks that follow other gods.

Maybe you are highly educated for that was a good post the other day but your vitriol just cancelled any good thoughts I had about reading what YOU have to say. Yeah, I know you don't care.

To put it more bluntly you are following the wrong god. The God of the word is not confused, arrogant, nor out of order. He will let you follow your heart straight away from heaven. Oh wait you don't believe in that place either right. To the witnesses heaven and hell are right here on earth.

Bye- bye Aunty Jane,it was your hard luck to address me in such a way; you might have heard the TRUTH !

 

[Wrangler]

If you are not interested in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, then the languages of the Bible is closed to you.

Friend, that is what translations are for.

If you read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh, then you will see that “I Am” is not the only valid translation of God’s name

Indeed, God saying he is ever present (GE 3:14) is no name of his at all. This is the point that @Peterlag made brilliantly not too long ago. He specifically says in v15 what his name is, which again, is not variation of I am.

As you said, those with a closed mind chose to remain willfully ignorant. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make a trinitarian think!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Who are you?

I can tell you who you are not.
My  God, my boss nor my mother. YOU HAVE ZERO AUTHORITY OVER ME !

You are absolutely correct.....only God and his Christ have authority over us spiritually speaking.
If I quote God's word, you have the option to ignore it.

This obviously is a JW thread and this must be what you believe,I am truly sorry for your loss.

I was not being mean spirited as you say but drawing the rotten fruit forward to see.

I am well aquatinted with forums,opinions and folks that follow other gods.

I assume that you are acquainted with forums where the posters are bitter and hateful.....this isn't one of them, so why did you come to this Bible discussion site swinging? Do you yourself wield any authority over any of us here? Who said you had to be right?

Maybe you are highly educated for that was a good post the other day but your vitriol just cancelled any good thoughts I had about reading what YOU have to say. Yeah, I know you don't care.

What vitriol? You mean my correction of what I believe was your error? I showed you from the scriptures where I thought you were wrong....you apparently don't like to be corrected....? I thought the scriptures were plain enough....?

To put it more bluntly you are following the wrong god. The God of the word is not confused, arrogant, nor out of order. He will let you follow your heart straight away from heaven.

Does this also apply to you? Or only to those who disagree with you? How do you know that the god you follow is the "right" one?

Oh wait you don't believe in that place either right. To the witnesses heaven and hell are right here on earth.

Well, no you have that wrong too but hey, you're on a roll so what the heck....

Bye- bye Aunty Jane,it was your hard luck to address me in such a way; you might have heard the TRUTH !

Ah...the true colors are never far from the surface.....your anger will take you away from the truth because you don't want to hear what you don't want to believe.....that is your loss IMO.....you might also have heard the truth....but we will all find that out soon enough....won't we?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do not agree with what Aunty Jane says. It seems to be her life’s mission to convince people Jesus is not God and I suspect she thinks anyone who does think He is God in human form is headed for fire (but I don’t know that for sure).

But I have to say, I don’t consider calling someone closed minded is vitriol. I think her opinion is that you are closed minded. That her opinion so angered you is odd to me. If vitriol is cruel and ugly criticism, it almost appears as if you are the one who did what you accused her of…

 

[Keturah]

I do not agree with what Aunty Jane says. It seems to be her life’s mission to convince people Jesus is not God and I suspect she thinks anyone who does think He is God in human form is headed for fire (but I don’t know that for sure).

But I have to say, I don’t consider calling someone closed minded is vitriol. I think her opinion is that you are closed minded. That her opinion so angered you is odd to me. If vitriol is cruel and ugly criticism, it almost appears as if you are the one who did what you accused her of…

She did not anger me and either I'm failing to convey my thoughts correctly or I just need to leave.
She attacked immediately bc I called the title lame.

Jehovah,God,Christ,Holy Spirit, it does not matter what name we call our Lord but these seem to think anybody who doesn't call him Jehovah doesn't know God.

Two entities struggle for power and control or rather one wants to. The God who is supreme and everything's creator and has ALL POWER.
Opposite to God is the fallen angel ,Lucifer, who caused a war in heaven by rebellion and is still trying to steal what is God's; our souls!

I have no use for that kind of folks that think THEY HAVE THE ANSWER and all else needs to cowtow to them.
Her superior attitude is what is offensive but it does not anger me. My battles are with the evil master of this world and such not pions.