1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Robert Gwin, Jan 5, 2022.

  1. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,031
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Having had a great burden for JW's for decades now I have met a few. I have been kicked out of their regional conventions, I had my name distributed to the entire county I live in warning the ministerial elders to not let me in, for I had gone into many kingdom halls and used their won literature against them. For about a decade I had a bigger library of watchtower materials than many kingdom halls ! I had books and magazines going back to the early 1920's.

    Usually, I found they get downright rude and crude when they have gotten cornered by the Word and then start lashing out with the taught defense mechanisms.
     
  2. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    24,684
    Likes Received:
    15,110
    @Ronald David Bruno

    When they can keep the discussion through their tunnel vision, so to speak, they will likely be patient and smooth.

    But once the Scripture is allowed to speak for itself, it's then that they can tolerate it, and may likely react very adversely.
     
    Ronald Nolette likes this.
  3. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    24,684
    Likes Received:
    15,110
    @Ronald Nolette PS: Great you have a burden for them as well as being able to counter their ideas.

    Sometimes a mere, brief conversation can cause them to keep coming back to the door persistently.
     
  4. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,031
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well I have had lengthy studies with them. Had several elders with their young "padewans" in tow. I guess they thought that they could show them how Watchtower mistranslations would destroy a bible believing Christian. They were wrong. My only rayer is that the word of God showed them apart form Watchtower indoctrination would smash that foundation they built on sand.
     
    Nancy and Ronald David Bruno like this.
  5. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    651
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes sir that title does apply to both of them, and since all of God's people today are Christians, when we hear the word Lord, I would venture to say most everyone would think of Jesus, unless of course you asked them what if it was all capitalized. Really to Christians that would be natural, take a gander at 1 Cor 8:5, and 6. That brings out to believers that many are called lord, as there are actually many, but to "us" which you will likely think is speaking about Christians, to us we naturally think of the Lord as being Jesus like the verse indicates.
     
    Wrangler likes this.
  6. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    651
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    All English translators who use the Divine name in their versions and render it in English render it Jehovah.

    Ask yourself does God accept the name AT? The translators of the King James Version of the Bible were noted trinitarians, and like you pointed out altered God's name YHWH to Adonai rendering it LORD instead of Jehovah. That Bible would be the main Bible in English for centuries, yet the translators seemingly forgot to alter it in 4 places. Why do you suppose that is? The Bible points out that for salvation you have to call on God's name, at Romans 10:13, so I submit that for those persons who lived during that dark period, that God's name was made available to them. Jehovah protected, and prevented those translators to remove His name. Notice how when His name became well known throughout the earth, how the translators of many versions were able to leave it out. But even in that, as far as I know Jehovah's shortened name Jah is found in every English Bible version.

    To me, disrespecting God's name is a no no sir.
     
  7. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    651
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I submit that the God who exalted him, did not exalt him above Himself. That is not consistent with the rest of the Bible sir. An anointed one is never greater than the one who anoints. Jehovah is God and Jesus is His son, and subject only to Him. Next to Jehovah, Jesus has the highest name, which if you look at it honestly means position, as does sitting at the Fathers right hand.
     
    Wrangler likes this.
  8. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    651
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    If one contradicts the Bible, and you follow that contradiction, then you follow the author of the contradiction, not God. Simple as that sir.
     
  9. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,959
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Great point! It needs to be understood.

    Of course, the dualists have to pretend that Jehovah is not synonymous with the Father and is not a different being from Jesus. This is why they are forced to abuse language, like parse synonyms, being and person.

    It is absurd to suppose that someone who is subject to another is actually subject to themselves. Again, an abuse of language. No one talks this way.
     
    Robert Gwin likes this.
  10. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,031
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It is consistent sir!

    See you now have had to modify the plain unambiguous Word of God to sneak in the Watchtower Doctrine. Do you think God stupid? Giving jesus the name above all names is because of:

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    And now you are defending something we are not even talking about, who is exalted above all. God the Father is above all even the Son, but as Gods Word shows, The father was so pleased, He decreed Jesus name above all NAMES-YES EVEN ABOVE THE NAME JEHOVAH.

    DO NOT ADD TO SCRIPTURE, YOU ONLY ADD TO THE DESTRUCTION IF YOU DIE REJEJCTRING JESUS RISING FROM THE DEAD IN THE SAME BODY HE DIED IN.
     
  11. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,031
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Here you are correct. And it is you who are following those who contradict the bible by very subtle and powerful philosophy.

    JOhn 1:1 is very clear and unambiguous
    1 Timothy 3:16 is also very clear and unambiguous.
    Isaiah 44:6 is very clear and unambiguous.
    Phil. 2:6-10 is very clear and unambiguous.

    Why the watchtower has to twist and turn to deny the Lord Jesus Christ His rightful place is the problem.

    Also as they deny Jesus rose in the same body He died in- keeps them out of heaven and keeps all they proselytize out as well.
     
  12. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    651
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes Jehovah does educate His people very will sir, Isa 2:2,3. We would expect nothing less of the assigned faithful slave would we. Your 17th century English has misled you, not robbery is not understood in the way you present it. Rather is not it robbery to be equal to God. As I stated the rest of the Bible confirms that. I side with you as I sided with the brothers in Jesus' day that he would make an excellent King, in which they tried to force him to take the position then, but the time was not yet the appointed time.

    The present day people now try to push him into the position of God, as you are trying to do, but he will never assume that position Ron. In fact have you never read what he will do when all things are subjected to him at the end of the millennium? Here is what God's word says:
    (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) . . .Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    That is what the Bible really teaches, and what I believe Ron.
     
    Wrangler likes this.
  13. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    651
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Your altered version of the Bible has separated us sir. Again I agree that Jehovah educates us very well through the one whom you call the Watchtower, but the Bible calls the faithful slave. We do not serve the same God Ron.
     
  14. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,959
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Among men, sure. Jesus’ name is above all names - except for God himself.

    This is the clear meaning of 1 Cor 11:3 and Christianity’s End Game @
    1 Cor 15:23-28, where there is an explicit exception for God. And this is the plain language of how one knows Jesus is NOT God
     
  15. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,553
    Likes Received:
    736
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    A little history: Jehovah is a made up name from the tetragrammaton, YHWH in the 16th century. First introduced by William Tyndale in his translation of Exodus 6:3. The consensus among scholars is that the vocalization of YHWH in the 6th century BC was Yahweh. During the 2nd century BC the pronunciation was avoided. The Jews did not want to mispronounce in fear so they used Adonai. The Hebrew vowels in Adonai were added to the Tretragrammaton by the Masoretes in the 12th century and the result was a transliteration, Yehowah, later changed to Jehovah.
    Now, The pre-incarnate Son of God, was the one who spoke to Moses! Surprise! Therefore Jesus is YHWH. He has always been the mediator between God and man.
    Proof: The whole Bible is about Jesus in the NT and the Messiah/ Savior in the OT.
    If Jehovah is the correct name to be used, then Jesus is Jehovah.
    He is the one who spoke to Moses when Moses asked Him, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.'" Exodus 3:13, 14
    This was the introduction, a pre-cursor to Who GOD is and what His plan was that was to be fulfilled when He would enter our physical realm, empty himself into a child named Jesus, also known as Yeshua, the LORD, the Messiah, OUR SAVIOR, Immanuel.
    Those two introductory words that express God's existence and being, only preface His identity until He would reveal Himself in the flesh. "I AM" is a clear reference to Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus told us and showed us Who He was:
    "I am the Bread which came down from heaven." John 6:41
    "I am the Light of the World ..."
    John 8:12
    "I am from above ..."
    John 8:23
    " ... before Abraham was, I AM!"
    John 8:58
    "I am the Door ..."
    John 10:9
    "I am the Good Shepherd ..."
    John 10:11
    "... I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ..."
    John 14:6
    "I am the vine; you are the branches ..."
    John 15:5
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev.1:8

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
    John 1:1
    "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. ..."
    John 1:14
    "For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were create by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col. 1:16, 17
    ["hold together" is also translated as "consist".]
     
    atpollard likes this.
  16. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,031
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You are so very wrong. the Watchtower New World Mistranslation has butchered the word of God in Philippians 2! and they will be held accountable for it. The rest of teh bible does not confirm it- the retranslation of the bible by the Watchtower says it, but that is not the Word of God and neither is the NWT.

    Well lying is very unbecoming of you.

    1. I never try to push Jesus into the position of His Father. I have consistently said He is equally divine as His Father. So you are ling here.

    2. I have read and posted the Corinthians verse many many many times. so you are lhying here as well.

    I believe the same as your last paragfraph, for that is Scripture. where you err in believing in your Watchtower masters is that Jesus is as divine as His Father, inferior in His position but equal in nature. Yes, Jesus at teh end of His 1,000 year kingdom will hand th ekingdom back to His father!

    This is so sad. As jesus said:

    Matthew 6:23
    But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

    How great is the darkness that surrounds you. but have hope as the watchtower says when they are caught in changing- the light is getting brighter and brighter! when it gets bright enough to see the truth- You will rejoice I was a pain in your backside!

    Just remember, the reason why the "translators" of the NWT remained anonymous is because they could only get marginal scholars in the languages to say anything good about that abomination.
     
  17. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,031
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    With only one year formal training in the biblical languages, I have more knowledge of them than all the mistranslators of the NWT combined!
     
  18. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,959
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It's awesome how you just make stuff up to support your doctrine.
     
  19. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,959
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, you most certainly do try to push Jesus into the position of His Father, who alone is God. How do I know this? Jesus said it at John 17:3.

    I know you must invoke dualism. When Jesus says his father is the only true God, this cannot be allowed to remain exclusive. All other God's must be allowed to be added like Allah, the 3-is-1-ist, Krishna, Jesus, David, Nebuchadnezzar, Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, the emperor of Japan, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  20. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,959
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The trinitarian absurdity is to deny this passage makes explicit that God, in his unitarian nature, acted and is the subject of the sentence. "Under his feet" is a difference "him" that did the acting, which is to say, Jesus is the object of the sentence.

    This is NOT the same as Jack and Jill ran up the hill. Both Jack and Jill are the subjects of that sentence.

    If Jesus were God, the emphatic distinction made in v27 is purposeless. It's like saying, "Thank God Trump is out of office and Biden now occupies the seat of power. Trump will never have power again. AND Biden is Trump." If Trump is Biden, the previous 2 sentences are wrong, purposeless and pointless. That is, nonsense. The trinitarian take is nonsense.
     
Loading...