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Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Robert Gwin, Jan 5, 2022.

  1. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Reading your posts is like reading someone who denies gravity even though it can be demonstrated.

    An undeniable fact of Scripture is that Jesus died. This is how we know he is not God. Is it your position that God died? Is it your position that God can die?

    Scripture says Jesus died. It does not say the trinitarian dualistic addition of words to qualify an unqualified fact. Jesus died. This is not the same thing as part of him died. Jesus physically died, etc.

    The theological significance of a man dying and being resurrected as eternal consequences for us. If God merely came in the form of a man and only appeared to die, it actually has no theological significance whatsoever given that God is all-powerful. I wonder how you dismiss from the verses below:
    1. God, in his unitarian nature, sent Jesus.
    2. God, in his unitarian nature, chose Jesus.
    3. Jesus has no power or choice but to stay in heaven until God, in his unitarian nature, announces the day.


    17 Listen, friends, I know you didn’t fully realize what you were doing when you rejected and betrayed Jesus. I know that you, and your rulers as well, were acting in ignorance. 18 God was at work in all this, fulfilling what He had predicted through all the prophets—that the Anointed One would suffer (NOT GOD WHO SUFFERED). 19 So now you need to rethink everything and turn to God so your sins will be forgiven and a new day can dawn, days of refreshing times flowing from the Lord (WHO IS NOT THE ETERNAL GOD BUT ONE OF MANY lords IN THE BIBLE). 20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets.
    Acts 3:17-21 (Voice) EMPHASIS ADDED.
     
  2. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Are you a Christian Scientist? You quoted a Christian Scientist in one of your posts which is why I ask. All the Christians I know would never do such a thing. If so, my stuff is very much different than Mary Baker Eddie's stuff?
     
  3. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    May I ask why you stated I AM was what God said His name was instead of what He really told Moses Ron?
     
  4. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    We are convinced that Jesus continues to direct the congregation still today sir. If it is evil in your heart to serve Jehovah, fine with me, as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.
     
  5. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't it you that are saying Jesus is God? We do not say that sir.
     
  6. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    The truth is that if Jesus is God we have no hope. Our hope is based on his sinless sacrifice. If he sinned, then his ransom could not be accepted, as it would not equal what was lost. I fail to understand the logic of such a clear doctrine. I can only state that satan is an extremely capable god. Like the song says, he's got the whole world in his hands. 2 Cor 4:4
     
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  7. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Amen to this sir, fer sher!
     
  8. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Because that is what scripture stated. I've looked at about 60 English translations and they all say the same thing. Here are those I am familiar with.
    KJ21
    And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”
    ASV
    And God said unto Moses, I am that I am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you.
    AMP
    God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am”; and He said, “You shall say this to the Israelites, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
    CSB
    God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
    CEB
    God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am. So say to the Israelites, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
    CEV
    God said to Moses: I am the eternal God. So tell them that the Lord, whose name is “I Am,” has sent you. This is my name forever, and it is the name that people must use from now on.
    DARBY
    And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
    ERV
    Then God said to Moses, “Tell them, ‘I Am Who I Am.’ When you go to the Israelites, tell them, ‘I Am’ sent me to you.”
    ESV
    God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
    GNV
    And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
    HCSB
    God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
    JUB
    And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.
    KJV
    And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
    NABRE
    God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.
    NASB
    And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
    NASB1995
    God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
    NIRV
    God said to Moses, “I am who I am. Here is what you must say to the Israelites. Tell them, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ 
    NIV
    God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
    NKJV
    And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
    NRSV
    God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I am has sent me to you.’
    RSV
    God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
    WEB
    God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
    YLT
    And God saith unto Moses, `I Am That Which I Am;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.'

    What does your NWT say? Probably something different?
     
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  9. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I never understood the trinitarian claim that Jesus has to be God if we are to be saved because only God is sinless. God was going to accept the human sacrifice of Isaac. Where is the claim that Isaac was God or that he was sinless?
     
  10. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    I generally like the CEV translation. If you look, it combines v14 -15 for easier readability. This translation is not so good when it comes to peeing matches about what word was used.

    Verse 14 merely says I AM has sent you. The VOICE translation explains this is why it generally refers to Jesus God as The eternal because this expression means he is eternal. However, Verse 15 explicitly states his name, which you have to deny for doctrinal reasons.

    14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
    Ex 3:15 (ESV)


    The name of God is the LORD (capitalized). Jesus is never referred to as the LORD (capitalized) but 1 among many lords (lowercase). This is how you know the NT writers did not think Jesus was God. Hope this helps.
     
  11. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Yes Jesus does through the Person of the Holy Spirit which lives in all true believers. But as your organization denies that Jesus rose from teh dead in the body He died with as the Scriptures say, be warned that no kingdom hall is a congregation of God. May the Lord Jesus Christ enlighten you to see this truth that you may be saved and born again as all men are required to be!
     
  12. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    I have explained many timesd to y9ou what that means. so to imply what you write is you simply either being completely ignorant of what I wrote or intentionally lying about what I have wrote.

    I said Jesus is not the Father. But He is equally God in nature as His Father God is Divine , Jesus is equally divine!

    Teh Father is above all, then comes Jesus!

    If you do not understand this, let me know I will expalin as much as needed. But if you do understand, stop lying about my words!
     
  13. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    That was a test of his faith, God never intended to allow him to kill his son. What did happen was that a Lamb was provided. 2000 years later, The Lamb of God was sacrificed in the same location. Jesus was without sin, and became sin, taking all the sins of the world for all time upon himself - only God can accomplish that. We are talking about trillions of sins.
     
  14. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Saying that is an assertion but you say it as though it were conclusion. What verse says that only God can be the suffering servant and Anointed? None.
     
  15. Cassandra

    Cassandra Well-Known Member

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    Don't you just love it when he calls every other Bible altered except for his?

    NWT done in 1950? Why that was ages ago. I wasn't even born yet.

    Usually if one thing is made, and another thing is made after it that is like it, but not completely like it--that is the altered one.
     
  16. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that. We are all suffering servants and many are anointed. All the prophets were.
    I sad only God could become sin - as in take all the sins of humanity upon himself and wash them away. It takes omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience to accomplish that.
     
  17. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    No sir, that was not the name Jehovah gave to Moses as being His name, you cut Him off. He gave Moses His name 1 verse later, and told Moses that would be His name forever. Am I in error Ron, or is that what the Bible really teaches? I Am was one of His qualities He was going to demonstrate to Pharaoh sir, not His name.

    If you agree this is the case, then let us walk through those passages you posted, and the validity of what they actually say.
     
  18. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Offering Isaac was a test of Abraham's loyalty Wrangler, and it foreshadowed God offering up His only begotten as well. Interestingly Isaac is referred to as Abrahams only begotten, but was actually his second son. (Hebrews 11:17, 18) . . .By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.”
    Jesus was a descendant of Isaac. Jesus of course was sinless, with God as His father, he was not born with inherited sin of Adam. The Bible calls him a corresponding ransom. Equal in other words.
     
  19. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Of course we deny Jesus rose bodily. We do not teach he reneged on the sacrifice. We fully recognize that we were redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus' flesh and blood. Luke 22:19,20. We are further aware that Jesus returned to heaven, where flesh and blood cannot go. We are also aware that the Bible states Jesus was raised a spirit (1 Peter 3:18) . . .For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

    A fact I found interesting as well, were you aware that Jesus wasn't given full control of holy spirit until after he returned to heaven? Acts 2:33 I really found that interesting when I first seen it.
     
  20. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    On this point we agree Ronald, but likely have a different understanding of the word Divine. We believe all spirit beings are Divine in nature sir, but not equally, which I gather you don't really think either since you stated the Father is above all, then comes Jesus, which we are in complete agreement of. There is an organized class structure in heaven 1 Cor 11:3; Job 1:6
     
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