Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

[Wrangler]

How about this verse in the OT-- YHWH said to my lord( Jesus) --Your bible has the LORD said to my lord--Every spot in the NT where-GOD or LORD all capitols is, the name YHWH belongs.

In addition, Jesus is never referred to as LORD (capitalized), only 1 of many lords (lowercase) in the Bible. The only God is Jesus' God. See Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 11:31, Eph 1:3, 7, 17, Col 1:3, 1 Peter 1:3.

If this is not so, why does Scripture tell us over and over and over again?

 

[Wrangler]

Yep. Calling Jesus Yahwe in Isa 44:6 That's the whole point. The Hebrew that I posted says this.

So He is not a god. He is the GOD.

Jesus is not even mentioned in Isaiah 44:6. How do you read Jesus into that verse?

 

[Wrangler]

So all those People who died as Christians throughout the centuries died as heretics because the bibles they had been erroneous?

Naked Appeal to Majority. When Jesus died, most people did not believe he was the Savior, and that is still true today. Therefore, he cannot be the Savior.

 

[Wrangler]

God the Father was never a man, God the Son

Don't you feel a tad silly saying 'God the Son,' when it is not in Scripture one time? When Scripture states 'God the Father,' trinitarians have convinced themselves that implies other Gods. All it means is emphasizing the Supreme Being and our proper relationship to him, his adopted children.

Today, people still speak this way in America, only reverse the order, such as, 'My Daddy, the President.' It does not mean there are other President's.

 

[Cassandra]

Jesus is not even mentioned in Isaiah 44:6. How do you read Jesus into that verse?

The Redeemer, and I am the First and the Last. Jesus says the same about Himself in Rev 22:13

King James Bible
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

 

[Wrangler]

False. The Name given in Exodus is the three tenses of the verb "To Be".

You do not have eyes to see.

This shows how desperate trinitarians are to find any verse that COULD be taken to support their doctrine. This is because there is no trinity in the Bible as an explicit teaching. I say 'I am' all the time and so do many people. It must mean that I am claiming to be a deity and my saying it is proof that I am a deity. Wow!

 

[Wrangler]

The Redeemer, and I am the First and the Last. Jesus says the same about Himself in Rev 22:13

Wow! We are not talking about Rev but Isaiah 44:6. Two beings can say the same thing.

You do admit that prophets speak the words of God, right?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So we agree God and Christ are not one and the same?

Yes and no! Talk about a crazy answer. No in that they are separate "persons". Yes in that they share the exact same essence Jesus is as much divine as His Father.

I use the term divine because when people see or hear the word God they think of a "person". So while they are seperate "individuals" they share the same essence. That is why Jesus could tell Phillip, if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

 

[David H.]

Naked Appeal to Majority.

Not at all, an appeal to the Love of God and the protection of the Holy Spirit of them who are sealed and purchased with the Blood of God, and the Spirit of truth which protects those who are sealed.

Don't you feel a tad silly saying 'God the Son,' when it is not in Scripture one time? When Scripture states 'God the Father,' trinitarians have convinced themselves that implies other Gods. All it means is emphasizing the Supreme Being and our proper relationship to him, his adopted children.

Today, people still speak this way in America, only reverse the order, such as, 'My Daddy, the President.' It does not mean there are other President's.

But the Son of God is there 889 times and is the same thing. In fact the Jews confirmed this when they accused him of Blasphemy for calling himself the Son of God. (John 10:33)

You do not have eyes to see.

This shows how desperate trinitarians are to find any verse that COULD be taken to support their doctrine. This is because there is no trinity in the Bible as an explicit teaching. I say 'I am' all the time and so do many people. It must mean that I am claiming to be a deity and my saying it is proof that I am a deity. Wow!

I Gave a link that has someone who is speaks Hebrew and is a Christian. The Hebrew translation is is the one the Hebrew people accept, I AM that I AM, and the reaction of the Jews picking up stones to this statement proves this just like in John 10:33 when he claims to be the Son of God.

Would you stone U2 for blasphemy when they wrote the following in a song?

I was there when they crucified my Lord
I held the scabbard when the soldier drew his sword
I threw the dice when they pierced his side
But I've seen love conquer the great divide

U2 - When Love Comes To Town Lyrics | AZLyrics.com

That is in effect what you are reducing the meaning of Jesus' statement in John 8:58 to when he says before Abraham was, I Am.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Maybe you missed the Facts of true God worship history. I will share them with you.

From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion, teach, serve and worship a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah)
Thus when Jesus attended those places of worship, was taught, served and worshipped a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah, as was every bible writer. So what happened?
In the second century a man named Terrillion was considering God as a trinity. Why? Because a single being God was being taught and served still. At the first council of Nicea in 325, no trinity god was being taught or served.

The New Catholic encyclopedia-1967-Vol XIV- Page 299 states--- The formulation-one God in three persons- was not established, certainly not fully assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.

It was made up at a later council. the trinity god does not exist. All being mislead into serving it are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily. Not a wise place to be standing.

Well maybe the "trinity god" as you perceive it exists.

But Israel knew God had a son.
Israel had teh concept of a plurality in God. Elohim and Adonai are plural nouns. And the whole plurality of majesty as promulgated by the Watchtower is falsely stated. The Plurality of Majesty and excellency refers to more than one majesty or person .
Jesus is called God
Jesus is called Jehovah four times in the OT
Jesus is called God with us.
Jesus is declared equal to God by the Apostle John.
Both Father and son are called first and last!
Both are called Creator.
Both are called everlasting Father.

Also teh Holy Spirit is given personal pronouns in Greek when there was neuter pronouns. god doesn't make mistakes so the Holy Spirit ios a person
The Holy spirit is called Gopd!

Now the term trinity appeared at teh end of th efourth century. But Paul declared the deity of Jesus, John declared the diety of Jesus, Jesus declared His own deity
that is good enough for me.

 

[Wrangler]

But the Son of God is there 889 times and is the same thing.

Language usage is an enemy to trinitarianism, as is logic, definition and Scripture. Joe Biden of Maryland is NOT the same thing as Maryland of Joe Biden.

The term is converse. Converses are not the same thing.

• All squares are rectangles. TRUE.
• All rectangles are squares. FALSE.
• Jesus is the Son of God. TRUE.
• Jesus is God the Son. False.

Jesus died. This is how you know he was not God.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is called Jehovah four times in the OT

Jesus is not mentioned once in the OT.

 

[Wrangler]

Both are called everlasting Father.

Nowhere is Jesus called Father.

I know you desperately want an OT verse to refer to Jesus - but it doesn't. Just another trinitarian imposed interpretation onto unitarian text.

 

[David H.]

Language usage is an enemy to trinitarianism, as is logic, definition and Scripture. Joe Biden of Maryland is NOT the same thing as Maryland of Joe Biden.

The term is converse. Converses are not the same thing.

• All squares are rectangles. TRUE.
• All rectangles are squares. FALSE.
• Jesus is the Son of God. TRUE.
• Jesus is God the Son. False.

Jesus died. This is how you know he was not God.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)

Your reliance on the mind of man and appeal to logic is the problem why you cannot receive the revelation of the Holy Ghost as this truth is Spiritually discerned. This is why this is a test of the Spirit in scripture, those who deny the deity of Christ are not sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Take the time to read the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians and you will then see how fallen our human mind is...

 

[David H.]

Nowhere is Jesus called Father.

I know you desperately want an OT verse to refer to Jesus - but it doesn't. Just another trinitarian imposed interpretation onto unitarian text.

The translation of Isaiah 9:6 is unanimous, including the Dead sea scrolls that the Son will be called "Mighty God, Everlasting Father". SoYou are wrong.

 

[Keiw]

The translation of Isaiah 9:6 is unanimous, including the Dead sea scrolls that the Son will be called "Mighty God, Everlasting Father". SoYou are wrong.

Every Hebrew scholar on earth will tell you that Elohim is never plural for the true God, only plural in the false 3 headed gods that were around back then. And Elohim is not a name, its a Hebrew word that carries various meanings.
Jesus is everlasting father in the sense that he laid is life down and opened the door to all. Otherwise if he failed that door would remain shut. He however is not the Father--If one believes him--Our Father who art in heaven. He is being called mighty God, Because God did it all through him( Acts2:22) As well he is Gods image Collosaians 1:15--An image is never the real thing.

 

[Cassandra]

Jesus is everlasting father in the sense that he laid is life down and opened the door to all. Otherwise if he failed that door would remain shut. He however is not the Father--If one believes him--Our Father who art in heaven.

He is the Father, but he's not the Father? The definition of the Father being one who lays His life down? Are you saying the Father laid his life down?

Who's on first?

 

[Keiw]

He is the Father, but he's not the Father? The definition of the Father being one who lays His life down? Are you saying the Father laid his life down?

Who's on first?

God did not come to earth. The bible is clear, God sent someone else. Its the speaker at Proverbs 8-Gods master worker. None other deserves that title but the one whom God created all other things through. And that speaker tells all he was created in Proverbs 8. As does Collosians 1:15--the FIRSTBORN of all creation. Ones twist this into oblivion, but the term All creation proves their error. All creation was the first one created. As he tells all in Proverbs 8.

 

[David H.]

Every Hebrew scholar on earth will tell you that Elohim is never plural for the true God, only plural in the false 3 headed gods that were around back then. And Elohim is not a name, its a Hebrew word that carries various meanings.
Jesus is everlasting father in the sense that he laid is life down and opened the door to all. Otherwise if he failed that door would remain shut. He however is not the Father--If one believes him--Our Father who art in heaven. He is being called mighty God, Because God did it all through him( Acts2:22) As well he is Gods image Collosaians 1:15--An image is never the real thing.

False, In Genesis 1 Elohim is plural and refers to the Godhead... God, the Word, and the Spirit... And for the record, Isaiah 9:6 does not use Elohim but rather El, the singular, Mighty God. So your facts betray your own argument.

 

[Keiw]

Well maybe the "trinity god" as you perceive it exists.

But Israel knew God had a son.
Israel had teh concept of a plurality in God. Elohim and Adonai are plural nouns. And the whole plurality of majesty as promulgated by the Watchtower is falsely stated. The Plurality of Majesty and excellency refers to more than one majesty or person .
Jesus is called God
Jesus is called Jehovah four times in the OT
Jesus is called God with us.
Jesus is declared equal to God by the Apostle John.
Both Father and son are called first and last!
Both are called Creator.
Both are called everlasting Father.

Also teh Holy Spirit is given personal pronouns in Greek when there was neuter pronouns. god doesn't make mistakes so the Holy Spirit ios a person
The Holy spirit is called Gopd!

Now the term trinity appeared at teh end of th efourth century. But Paul declared the deity of Jesus, John declared the diety of Jesus, Jesus declared His own deity
that is good enough for me.

Here is what Paul teaches--1Corinthians 8:6--There is one God to all the Father. Then over and over--1cor 15:24-28--2Cor 1:3--2Cor 11:31--Collosians 1:3--Ephesians 1:13,17--- he would not contradict himself.
Jesus himself at John 17:1-6,26--Calls the one who sent him=Father-THE ONLY TRUE GOD--verse 6= YHWH(Jehovah) Verse 26= YHWH(Jehovah)
Hallowed be thy name=YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.
In the LXX at John 1:1 reads-- In the beginning The Logos was, and the Logos was with Ho Theos, and the Logos was Theos.
Same at 1Cor 4:4--Satan is called plain Theos--God is called Ho Theos. Ho Theos is the true living God, Plain theos = a god small g--Means has godlike qualities. It did not call the word The God in the last line at John 1:1.
Other translations in history did it correct, but were rejected by the ones living by error.
Many errors were translated in by the religion thayt came out of Rome.
Example--In The Hebrew in the OT, there is no -i am that i am. i will be what i will be is correct. Translated in to fit false council teachings.