Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

[David H.]

Jesus did not regard equally with God something that man would grasp, so He didn't push the issue. Many people who believed in Him, the Messiah and Savior still did not grasp His deity, yet believed what He said. They beleived He died for their sins and rose on the third day. And that He was God's Son. The depth of understanding of His nature wasn't a prerequisite. I am not sure it is now, though 98% of Christians believe this. We cannot judge Non-trinitarians or anyone. We cannot put them in the group whom only God knows are reprobate. God is the judge.
I would be careful not to condemn anyone. My father was a professed atheist until close to death.
My mother was a rebellious liberal person on the fringe of her own spiritual smorgasbord of beliefs. I had chipped away at those beliefs for 30 years and almost gave up hope ... until just days before her death when she confessed to believing that Jesus was always there for her and had his hand on her should. She was singing to us, "Jesus loves me ... "! So let's not condemn. We never know. Drug addicted murderers in prison come to faith in Christ. He is merciful.

I am just pointing to a scriptural fact, what the reader does with that fact is what judges them, not me. The blood of bulls and goats, or the blood of a man cannot redeem us at best it can only temporarily cover (atone) for our sins and is why the Old Testament sacrifices had to be repeated year after year, and why all religions that deny the blood of God fall into legalistic religion and self-righteous legalism, because they never experience the freedom from condemnation. (Romans 8:1-8)

I Once had a conversation with an SDA member about this being the big flaw in the doctrines of Ellen G White, she preached of the atonement for sin, Scripture speaks of the removal of sin. Atonement is just a covering for sin... not a removal of sin and the result always is that religious guilt and legalistic works dualism that all religions are built on. Christianity is not like that, God removes our sin, and we are free to obey Him and choose the path of holiness by yielding to the work of the Holy Spirit in us. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

You see, most of those people who are denying the blood of God, are condemning themselves already, because they do know what true redemption is like. My words are there to show them what they are missing in their understanding.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Bible explicitly says the man Jesus and never says the God Jesus. This means nothing to you.

The Bible identifies Jesus as the God/man.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Answered.

Not answered, you just gave up a bunch of confusion.

Jesus said He rose from the dead and the Bible statres He was resurrected from teh dead.

REsurrection=ana stasis a standing again REPEAT AGAIN. So tell me what did Jesus lay down that He stood up again on the third day?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All spirit beings are spirit beings sir. Jehovah is not referred to as an angel, I would gather because He is not created, but all spirit beings have His essence in that way, but of course all humans are made in His image as well, but are not spirit beings sir.

You said they were the same in essence, and that is the extent in which I can agree with you. Jesus of course is not Jehovah, nor are any of the other angels.

But sir, If you knew your bible you would know that there are different kinds of Spirit beings. There are angles, the lowest order
Seraphim the next up the chain
Cherubim the highest order of created spirit being. Satan was the anointed cherub who protected the throne of God!

they are all spirit beings but they are not the same in essence A Cherub has a different essence than an angel.

Then there is God! And His essence is different than the angels, Cherubs and Seraphs!

Jesu sis called Jehovah four times!

He is called God multiple times

He is not His Father, He is not above or equal to His Father in position.

but He and His father are equal in their essence which is different than the rest of the spirit beings.

 

[Wrangler]

The Bible identifies Jesus as the God/man.

No. That is an appeal to duality, denying the exclusive nature of Jesus being a man and only a man when it explicitly says he is a man.

Not one time does the Bible actually identify Jesus as the God/man or God. As @Aunty Jane pointed out, all verses you rely on have to resort to inferring it. You supersede inference to verses that explicitly contradict your doctrine, e.g., Acts 17:31, 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[David H.]

Not one time does the Bible actually identify Jesus as the God/man or God. As @Aunty Jane pointed out, all verses you rely on have to resort to inferring it. You supersede inference to verses that explicitly contradict your doctrine, e.g., Acts 17:31, 1 Timothy 2:5.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)

 

[Aunty Jane]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)

That is a really bad translation....disgusting trinitarian bias putting in words that change the whole meaning of Bible verses.

1 Timothy 3:16....NASB...
"Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness:

He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory."

"God" is not mentioned in that verse...it is clearly about Jesus....not that he is God but is godly.

Now from the Greek Interlinear...you can see that "God" in not mentioned there.....
" And kai undeniably homologoumenōs great megas is eimi the ho mystery mystērion of ho godliness eusebeia, who hos was revealed phaneroō in en flesh sarx, was vindicated dikaioō in en spirit pneuma, appeared horaō to angels angelos; was preached kēryssō among en the nations ethnos, was believed pisteuō in en the world kosmos, was taken analambanō up in en glory doxa."

Another example is John 1:18....

The NASB 1995 edition is the only translation, (other than the NWT) I have seen that renders this verse as it is written in the Greek.
"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

The Revised NASB states, like most other pro-trinitarian versions....
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

So which one is correct....?
Here is the Interlinear....
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."

Notice that even this Interlinear translates the Greek as if it says "monogenēs hyios" which is "only begotten Son". But the words in English are not saying what it says in Greek.
You can clearly see that it says "monogenēs theos" which is "only begotten god"....not "The only Son himself God".....adding words to change the meaning of scripture is disgraceful.

If these Bibles translate "theos" (god) as "hyios" (son) in John 1:18, then to be consistent, they must also translate it as "son" in verse 1.
This would then say..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God and the Word was the Son".

I don't think trinitarians have any idea of how much this error has crept into Bible translations over the centuries, the original Greek scriptures were written by Jews, to whom a man claiming to be God would have been stoned to death for blasphemy...the Pharisees tried it on, but couldn't get it to stick. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus never once claimed to be God...he only ever said he was "the Son of God".....never was it ever expressed that he was "God the Son"....nor will we ever find the expression, "God the Holy Spirit". There is no trinity in the Bible.

 

[David H.]

That is a really bad translation....disgusting trinitarian bias putting in words that change the whole meaning of Bible verses.

that is the KJV, The version that has been around for 350 years, and the only version the English Language had for most of that time. It was preceded by and contemporary to the Geneva (1599) which has it translated this way....

16 And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, God is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

Both of which are based on the Textus Receptus which has been used by the church for 2000 years.

The Modern translations have been infiltrated by the Alexandrian Gnostic texts thus they are the ones who have been corrupted.

Here is the link to the Strong's concordance, which shows Theos is used there. 1 Timothy 3 (KJV) - And without controversy great is (blueletterbible.org)

Just like Acts 20:28 that speaks of the blood of God which has purchased us (Theos)

Jesus never once claimed to be God...he only ever said he was "the Son of God".....never was it ever expressed that he was "God the Son"....nor will we ever find the expression, "God the Holy Spirit". There is no trinity in the Bible.

"Before Abraham was, I Am." I Am is the very name of Jehovah as given to Moses, the reaction of the Jews shows that this was to them a blasphemous statement, not just "bad grammar" on Jesus Part.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.(John 8:58-59)

In Revelation That name of Jehovah is the phrase ho ōn kai ho ēn kai ho erchomenos Which is translated " was and Is and Is to come". It is used of Both Jesus and God Almighty in Revelation, Just Like the Use of Alpha and Omega (first and last) is used of Both Jesus and God almighty. So as I said in an earlier comment here, either Jesus is usurping the the Glory of God, or he is God incarnate. The Phrase "was and is and is to come is exactly the same thing as the name given to Moses for Jehovah Having all three of those tenses of the word I Am (I am that I Am) in other words it is the Greek version of the name of God.

When Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God" Jesus never corrected him, instead said blessed are they who believe (this confession) who have not seen (his resurrection) That is all of us who believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:28-29)

In Zechariah 12:10, Jehovah is speaking and refers to Himself as Him who they have pierced, When was God pierced?

 

[Wrangler]

God was manifest in the flesh

Do you know the difference between your likeness being shown or manifested on the news and you actually being on the news?

 

[David H.]

Do you know the difference between your likeness being shown or manifested on the news and you actually being on the news?

When was God's blood shed to purchase us? When was God pierced? Jesus was not just an effigy of God; He Is God incarnate. He was and is and is to come, The I Am That I am.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I presented dozens of English translations of Ex. 3:14, where God tells Moses, "I AM WHO I AM: and He said, 'Say this ti the people if Israel, I AM has sent me to you".
In verse 6 and 13 God already identified Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... the God of your fathers. This wasn't enough for Moses, so He asked for His name. God told Him specifically, what He wanted Moses to say. In verse 15, Adonai, LORD is used. JW's have changed this word 7000 times to Jehovah.
Jesus is the great I AM. The Supreme Being with infinite knowledge and power. "I Am" is the WORD, the exact expression and illumination of GOD, the Creator, with no begginning and no end, Who would empty Himself and become a human in the future through Christ. Moses could not contain or grasp this. When Christ came, Moses and Elijah did appear as spirutual beings as witnesses to Christ's glorified state.

No sir, verse 15 does not use Adonai, YHWH is there, my point is your version altered it, that is why you actually thought I AM, is His name rather than what He actually said. Are you aware that those versions who capitalize LORD, that everywhere they do it God's name is there? Maybe that will help sir, Go to Blue letter Bible and check any of them, they break down the words with what was really there. I will copy paste from that site what Ex 3:15 actually says about that LORD:
e LORD
h3068
יְהוָה יְהֹוָה Yᵊhōvâ

Then click on h3068:
Yᵊhōvâ
Pronunciation
yeh-ho-vaw'

Part of Speech
proper noun with reference to deity
Root Word (Etymology)
From הָיָה (H1961)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: 484a

KJV Translation Count — Total: 6,519x
The KJV translates Strong's H3068 in the following manner: LORD (6,510x), GOD (4x), JEHOVAH (4x), variant (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. Jehovah = "the existing One"
   
   1. the proper name of the one true God
      
      1. unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136
         

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
יְהֹוָה Yᵉhôvâh, yeh-ho-vaw'; from H1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jeho-vah, Jewish national name of God:—Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS H3068: Abbreviations
יהוה about 6823 i.e. יַהְוֶה proper name, of deity Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel —

I hope this helps Ron

 

[Robert Gwin]

Not answered, you just gave up a bunch of confusion.

Jesus said He rose from the dead and the Bible statres He was resurrected from teh dead.

REsurrection=ana stasis a standing again REPEAT AGAIN. So tell me what did Jesus lay down that He stood up again on the third day?

Yes sir, we agree on this. Jesus died and rose on the third day. As previously shown he gave his flesh and blood in our behalf. He was raised a spirit. He eventually returned to the heavenly realm where flesh and blood cannot go. He did appear bodily many times in different bodies, as humans cannot see spirits. Any more questions sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

But sir, If you knew your bible you would know that there are different kinds of Spirit beings. There are angles, the lowest order
Seraphim the next up the chain
Cherubim the highest order of created spirit being. Satan was the anointed cherub who protected the throne of God!

they are all spirit beings but they are not the same in essence A Cherub has a different essence than an angel.

Then there is God! And His essence is different than the angels, Cherubs and Seraphs!

Jesu sis called Jehovah four times!

He is called God multiple times

He is not His Father, He is not above or equal to His Father in position.

but He and His father are equal in their essence which is different than the rest of the spirit beings.

Yes sir, we agree, spirit beings are classified as rank. Only Jehovah is ever called Jehovah though. Jesus is never called God ever.

 

[Wrangler]

When was God's blood shed to purchase us?

Typical trinitarian tactic: don't answer questions but presume you are entitled to keep asking questions of your own.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

No sir, verse 15 does not use Adonai, YHWH is there, my point is your version altered it, that is why you actually thought I AM, is His name rather than what He actually said.

I didn't think up any scripture, it is there. GOD TOLD Moses, "tell them I Am sent me to you." (over 50 versions are translated that way - except NWT.
The name Jehovah was formed in the 16th century. FYI, the Son of God is YHWH, the great "I Am" or didn't you noticed all the "I am ... statements in John???
YHWH was
NOT pronounced by the Jews because they feared it would be mis-pronounced. So they used LORD. The hack Frederick Franz replaced LORD 7000 times with Jehovah. Some of our translations include it and it is accepted in the Old Testament. Nut Jesus himself never uttered the name Jehovah, nor did the Apostles. Doesn't rhat sound odd? He prayed to His Father and instructed us to pray to our Father - but never uttered any othe name. Do yourself a favor and examine the New Testament Greek Interliniary Bible and search for the name "Jehovah" -- it's not there!.
Lord is all through scripture and refers to Jesus. He was also called Emmanuel. Do yoi know what that means? Joshua too.
Yahweh would be more accurate if you had to create a name out of YHWH.
I am afraid there is an impenetrable wall between us. I see Jesus and worship for who He truely is. You see Him as Michael the archangel - which is why you degrade, dishonor and don't worship Him. Sad. You will wake up when you see Him with Michael at His side when He returns. I am afraid you will have missed out on the first resurrection though, which will happen at His Coming - not sure about that though. This is when the Jews will also wake up and see the LIGHT as well.

 

[David H.]

Do you know the difference between your likeness being shown or manifested on the news and you actually being on the news?

Typical trinitarian tactic: don't answer questions but presume you are entitled to keep asking questions of your own.

I Did answer your question, I said Jesus was not merely an effigy of God.... It is all you JW's and other non-trinitarians that have yet to address my question about the blood of God (Acts 20:28)Or Jehovah saying he is the one who is pierced (Zechariah 12:10)...which I asked much earlier in this thread, and it is because you can't.

To elaborate more on my response why Jesus is not an effigy of God, it is because if this is the case then to praise and worship him is to commit idolatry, which is to say worshipping an image.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:5-8)

 

[Wrangler]

I Did answer your question, I said Jesus was not merely an effigy of God

My question had nothing to do with this. In other words, you cannot answer my question by merely repeating your doctrine.

I know you believe Jesus is/was not merely an effigy of God. Yet, you are so silly as to not realize the verse you relied on, indeed stated that. Hence my question of language usage and definitions.

Do you know the difference between your likeness being shown or manifested on the news and you actually being on the news?

Please answer, yes or no, then explain your answer to my actual question. Thanks.

 

[David H.]

Please answer, yes or no, then explain your answer to my actual question. Thanks.

It is a question based on a false premise, (an incorrect defintion of the word manifest) I answered as best i could. Manifest means to "make known make visible that which was Hidden". God was manifest in the flesh.... Put another way using the Words of Paul again: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9)

In other words he was not just an effigy but God in Human form (incarnate). A fulfillment of what Isaiah said regarding the Messiah.... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

 

[Wrangler]

It is a question based on a false premise, (an incorrect defintion of the word manifest)

No. No definition of manifest was given but I suspect you want and must make up new definitions because the actual definitions do not support but undermine your doctrine at every turn.

 

[David H.]

No. No definition of manifest was given but I suspect you want and must make up new definitions because the actual definitions do not support but undermine your doctrine at every turn.

My Definition comes fromStrong's directly, and is the definiton of the Greek word Manifest. It is you who is adding to the definition by likening it to a Television broadcast, an image or effigy....
G5319 - phaneroō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Now your turn to respond to my questions.