Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

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Jay Ross

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You mean history is flawed, and we literally have no knowledge of the last 2100 years?

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am suggesting is that people have chosen history that does not back up what the Scriptures actually tells us. The Land of Babylon was devastated and made desolate by the Eastern Grecian Empire and the roman Empire did not have dominion over any part of the Land of the Chaldean. The Scriptures in Jer. 50:39 tells me that the Land of Babylon was desolated and left devastated for just over 2,000 year/2 ages and that in line with what is recorded in Rev. 16:17-21 Britain and France established the Nation of Iraq over the Land of babylon in 1926 AD.

If Rome is not an empire after Greece, and Rome was not in control of Palestine in 30AD, and Pilate was not a Roman in charge over the crucifixion, and Rome did not sack and destroy Jerusalem in 70AD, and Constatine was not emperor of Rome, what named empire took up some 300 to 400 years of history, prior to the dark ages?

Now I do not disagree with your summary of the Roman Empire's dominion over the Land of Canaan, and that they sacked Jerusalem and ploughed the Temple mound around 150 AD, but i do disagree that the Roman Empire had dominion over the Land of Babylon, and as such they were the fourth segment of the Statue of Dan. 2.

So if we chose the wrong historical facts, our understanding of Biblical Prophecy will be flawed.

Have a good day now.
 

Timtofly

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Dan. 8:8-14: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."​
NKJV

The problem with a Futurist interpretation is that it collides with Historicist interpretations as time advances and the Futurist understandings become Historicist understandings.

The Dan. 8:8-14 prophetic word is now approaching its completion with still around 22 years to go before the completion of the full 2,300 years that the prophetic word covers in time. Any outworking of this prophecy from around 250-260 BC up and until the present time, is Historical so that it falls now into a Historicist understanding with respect to its interpretation, while the next 22 or so years are still Futurist in how we interpret what is still to happen as this prophecy draws to its conclusion.

This makes it difficult for some people to wrap their laughing matter around Biblically recorded prophecy. because the prophecy is trapped between the two Historical and Futuristically understanding/interpretational processes.

The KISS theological views can often be difficult to accommodate.

Shalom
The problem with this, is, it still is Antiochus Epiphanies as the little horn, and that was near 170, 160, not 100 years prior when Alexander's empire was split into 4 parts. One of the 4 horns had a little horn that disrupted the other 4 horns.

That is what Daniel 8 states. Chapter 11 is a repeat because Daniel really had issues handling this set of facts dumped on his plate. If you want the exact time table look at Daniel 12:7

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

Half of time was the first 500 years. Started with the downfall of empires and Satan behind the scenes feeding all false information. The Babylonians, Medes and Persians, then Greece, and on to Rome. Paul said that he was already at work, some 500 years, according to Daniel. Then the "times" are the church age, 2000 years, and finally the "time" of 1000 years, the iron rod rule of Christ. Then the end will come at the GWT. 3500 hundred years of human history.

Since we can know Christ was crucified in 30AD, the hard limit of the "times" is fast approaching. The "time" hard on those heels. What happened during the 500 or even 300 years before the Cross is really irrelevant some 1991 years after the Cross.

I suppose if one wanted to account for every day and week, they probably could make an attempt in this information age. Many could even argue for a margin of error give or take 4 years either way. Still not much of a difference. All I can really do is echo John:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
 

Truth7t7

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Hi, Truth.

Didn't we go over this verse before... the proper translation is "and shall be given to a people who will bring forth the fruits thereof." It's a reference to the apostles, because he was addressing the Jewish leadership and telling them that they would in effect lose their positions of power as spiritual leaders is Israel, and that those positions would be handed over to the leadership of the church. Hence Christ's promise to the twelve disciples that they would "rule over the twelve tribes of Israel."
We Strongly Disagree, the correct translation is before your eyes

The kingdom of God has been taken from Israel, and given to the "Holy Nation" in the Church

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 

Hidden In Him

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The Dan. 8:8-14 prophetic word is now approaching its completion with still around 22 years to go before the completion of the full 2,300 years that the prophetic word covers in time. Any outworking of this prophecy from around 250-260 BC up and until the present time, is Historical so that it falls now into a Historicist understanding with respect to its interpretation, while the next 22 or so years are still Futurist in how we interpret what is still to happen as this prophecy draws to its conclusion.

I just don't think you have established enough of a case for 250-260 BC being when the timetable would have began. Seems too unsubstantiated to me.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Why only Jerusalem? Why not Israel? I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved. (Hos 9:10) He spake also this parable; A certain man [God] had a fig tree [Israel] planted in his vineyard [the world]; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. (Lk 13:6)


Well, because there is no precedent in the word for the world being referred to as His "vineyard." This is a term used of the house of Israel:

1 Now will I sing to my well-beloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My well-beloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill... 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down... 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry... 10 Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah. (Isaiah 5:1, 3-5, 7, 10)

Also in Jeremiah:

10 Many pastors have destroyed My vineyard, they have trodden My portion under foot, they have made My pleasant land a desolate wilderness. (Jeremiah 12:10)
 

Hidden In Him

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We Strongly Disagree, the correct translation is before your eyes

The kingdom of God has been taken from Israel, and given to the "Holy Nation" in the Church

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The word translated "nation" there is in the singular in Greek, so if it is indeed referring to a nation, which nation in particular is He referring to?
 

Truth7t7

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The word translated "nation" there is in the singular in Greek, so if it is indeed referring to a nation, which nation in particular is He referring to?
Who is the "Holy Nation" seen below, pretty self explanatory

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 

Hidden In Him

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Who is the "Holy Nation" seen below, pretty self explanatory

1 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

If this is how you are using it then we are in agreement. It is not talking about an earthly nation but a people; the people of God, which included Jewish leadership during New Testament times, and will include many Jews coming to Christ again in the end-times.

Btw, you do know Peter was writing primarily to Jewish believers there, correct?
 

Truth7t7

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If this is how you are using it then we are in agreement. It is not talking about an earthly nation but a people; the people of God, which included Jewish leadership during New Testament times, and will include many Jews coming to Christ again in the end-times.

Btw, you do know Peter was writing primarily to Jewish believers there, correct?
What does Peter writing to ethnic Jews in the church have to do with the facts presented?
 

Hidden In Him

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What does Peter writing to ethnic Jews in the church have to do with the facts presented?

Who he was addressing as a "holy nation" or "holy people."

Btw, the debate over who Peter's letters were written to (Jews or Gentiles) goes back a good ways. I was expecting you might argue the point. But yes, in a way it is still talking about the same group of people; those who were placing faith in Christ for salvation. But you seemed to be arguing before that the "holy nation" He was referred to did not include Jews, and that Jews would no longer be a focus of God's redemptive plan in the end-times, so that is where our primary difference of opinion is, or at least as I remember it.

Have a good day. I'll check in later tonight or tomorrow.

God bless,
- H
 

Truth7t7

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Who he was addressing as a "holy nation" or "holy people."

Btw, the debate over who Peter's letters were written to (Jews or Gentiles) goes back a good ways. I was expecting you might argue the point. But yes, in a way it is still talking about the same group of people; those who were placing faith in Christ for salvation. But you seemed to be arguing before that the "holy nation" He was referred to did not include Jews, and that Jews would no longer be a focus of God's redemptive plan in the end-times, so that is where our primary difference of opinion is, or at least as I remember it.

Have a good day. I'll check in later tonight or tomorrow.

God bless,
- H
The only future plan God has is with the Remnant Jew, who are elect and chosen to salvation, those whom God foreknew as Romans chapter 11 clearly teaches, they will be sealed and "Added" to the church present on earth

There isnt going to be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim, Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, (The End)
 
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Jay Ross

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I just don't think you have established enough of a case for 250-260 BC being when the timetable would have began. Seems too unsubstantiated to me.

Hidden, that is okay. The studies that I have done on the scriptures chronologically have confirmed for me that my timeline is within the bounds of being reasonable accurate. The events of 9/11 provided for me confirmation that the Gathering of the nations in the valley of decision, called Armageddon in Rev. 16:12-16 was to happen within 40 or so years from when the signs and wonders happened for all of the world to see. As the passage tells us that after this event the kings of the earth will be gathered at Armageddon to be judged.

Rev. 16:12-16: - 12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
NKJV

Now, if I am right that the kings of the earth will gather at Armageddon in our near future, which will, IMHO, occur in around 22 years time from now, my timeline can only be considered to be simply speculation at this stage until the events that will occur at Armageddon plays out. If my end date for the gentiles trampling God Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts is reasonable correct, then counting backwards 2,300 years would suggest that the start of the 2,300 year period would have begun around the time period of 260-250 BC. One of the events that occurred around that time period was the LXX Greek translation of the Jews' holy scriptures which are known, to us "Christians" today, as the Old Testament.

Much that is written on this forum is conjecture by the various writers, but some who post have an understanding of God's prophetic timeline.

Whether they are believed is not their responsibility. That responsibility is for those who may read what they write.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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The problem with this, is, it still is Antiochus Epiphanies as the little horn

I agree with you. Your problem is that you do not see past the human players acting on behalf of the demonic spirits to the spiritual entities who are guiding the outcome that we see happening within our realm.

Paul in Ep. 6:10-13 warned us about their influence when he wrote: -

Ephesians 6:10-13: - 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​
NKJV

These spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places are described as the "four winds of heaven" in Daniel. 7 and 8 and are called beasts. The Little Horn is also a a spiritual host of wickedness in the heavenly places who has influence over the four winds of heaven to do his bidding.

Your glasses are like welding glasses and are too dark to see the spiritual influences acting within this worldly realm.

I suggest that you get glasses that will enable you to see the wicked heavenly hosts acting and influencing our earthly realm. Perhaps you may then have the revelation that you are seeking.
 

Timtofly

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Well, because there is no precedent in the word for the world being referred to as His "vineyard." This is a term used of the house of Israel:

1 Now will I sing to my well-beloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My well-beloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill... 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down... 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry... 10 Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah. (Isaiah 5:1, 3-5, 7, 10)

Also in Jeremiah:

10 Many pastors have destroyed My vineyard, they have trodden My portion under foot, they have made My pleasant land a desolate wilderness. (Jeremiah 12:10)
Israel hardly controlled a tenth of the land, they could have been in charge of. That they failed as a nation is hardly an indication of what their potential was. Many want to narrow down the term world as to a nations cultural influence.

If that is the case, the Assyrians changed that, with a forced diaspora of the ten northern tribes all over the earth. Their cultural impact was far greater after that, than just stuck in a narrow strip of land. So the cultural influence had to be far greater, than this limit set by a tiny area of the earth.

Christians have the same mandate to be stewards, and they are not supposed to have a central homeland. So the vineyard is indeed all of earth and the gospel is the fruit sown throughout this vineyard.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Israel hardly controlled a tenth of the land, they could have been in charge of. That they failed as a nation is hardly an indication of what their potential was. Many want to narrow down the term world as to a nations cultural influence.

If that is the case, the Assyrians changed that, with a forced diaspora of the ten northern tribes all over the earth. Their cultural impact was far greater after that, than just stuck in a narrow strip of land. So the cultural influence had to be far greater, than this limit set by a tiny area of the earth.

Christians have the same mandate to be stewards, and they are not supposed to have a central homeland. So the vineyard is indeed all of earth and the gospel is the fruit sown throughout this vineyard


That's an interesting perspective, Timtofly, but I go by scriptural precedent on things like interpreting the parables, and in the OT Biblical precedents Israel was the vineyard, not the world.
 

Keraz

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The word translated "nation" there is in the singular in Greek, so if it is indeed referring to a nation, which nation in particular is He referring to?
The new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5
All the holy people of God, gathered into all of the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-16
John sees them there; Revelation 7:9
 

Jay Ross

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Ezekiel 34:11-16: -
11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them to/into their own land/fertile field; I will feed them on the mountain(s) of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country/earth. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountain(s) of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountain(s) of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."
Modified NKSV

The above modified translation paraphrase does not support Keraz's proposition. The translators focused primarily on the "Promised Land" which they believe God had given as a permanent possession, whereas God had promised in the Abrahamic Covenant that the whole earth was to become the permanent possession of the righteous Saints.

This focus by the translators has driven an understanding that is contextually false and misleading.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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The mountains of Israel.....
Translation; the high places of the holy Land. As confirmed by many other prophesies. Isaiah 30:29, Psalms 37:29, +

As usual, you are reading these two verse literally and not metaphorically.

Isaiah 30:29: - 29 You shall have a song
As in the night when a holy festival is kept,
And gladness of heart as when one goes with a flute,
To come into the mountain of the Lord,
To the Mighty One of Israel.​

where Daniel understood that the "Mountain" in the Isaiah 30:29 was a reference to the Lord's religious framework of worshipping Him in truth and might.

This can be seen in Daniel 2 where he wrote: -

Dan 2:34-35, 2:44-45: - 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
. . . . . .

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."​

Where was the mountain that the Stone was cut from? Was not the Mountain in Heaven where the heavenly hosts all worship God. Is it unreasonable to understand that the Mountain is a metaphor for God's structured religion where all the peoples of the earth should worship Him.


Psalm 37:27-29: - 27 Depart from evil, and do good;
And dwell forevermore.​
28 For the Lord loves justice,
And does not forsake His saints;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.​
29 The righteous shall inherit/possess the land/earth,
And dwell in it forever.​

In the Book of Revelation, are we not told that the Righteous Saints will inherit/possess the refurbished earth after the Finial Judgement.

Sadly, Keraz, your manner of reading and explaining the prophetic scriptures does leave a lot to be desired.
 

Davy

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This thread is one of the BEST examples of confusion caused by keeping to the leaven doctrines of men instead of staying strictly with what God's written Word says.

I have been wrongly accused of being a Preterist, and at other times a Historicist, and even a Futurist, when I am none of those things, but I simply follow God's Word as written and let the chips fall where they may.

Those men who heed the traditions of men are wrapped up in creating categories to place ideas in, instead of allowing the simplicity that is God's written Word take hold and teach them.