Jerusalem of the beast vs The Beloved City of the saints

[robert derrick]

NO; because the terrible Judgment/punishment by fire, will happen before Jesus Returns.
It will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster,

This is new and interesting.

Explain more please.

Afterall, the fire you speak of from heaven, also scorches all the earth, as well as all Gog and Magog.

And there are none hiding under rocks, but only surrounding the beloved city.

There is no time to hide, even as when the flood came instantly upon the earth, and the waters of the Red Sea devoured Pharoah and his army.

Also, when He does come, there will be many on earth seeing Him and wailing because of Him.

all of the 100+ Prophesies about the sudden and terrifying Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath.

I agree with this. All the great tribulation of wrath from the Lord upon the inhabitors of the earth, will be a short and quick work of righteous judgment, in the last hour of the last days.

In comparison, these last days of great tribulation from man upon the saints, has been here since the resurrection of Christ, and will continue through the war of the last great beast and the last hour of his kingdom.

We are all fed up with your cut and paste posts, that directly oppose clearly stated scripture.
Revelation 20 states 6 times that there WILL be a thousand year period after Jesus Returns, when He will reign as King of the world. Plus many other proofs of this glorious time.

It will be a rebuilt Jerusalem, with a new Temple, mostly built before Jesus Returns. As described in Ezekiel 40 to 48
The new Spiritual Jerusalem, comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1

True. Pointed argument is one thing, and can be instructive with correction, but grandstanding mantra's get boring fast.

Trying to display one's great scholarship, is childish at best.

Knowledge puffeth up.

It will be a rebuilt Jerusalem, with a new Temple, mostly built before Jesus Returns. As described in Ezekiel 40 to 48

I suppose the wicked city and temple made with hands of the unbelievers, can be built by them, but only with Him sitting on the throne of David in that temple over Jerusalem, will make it the Lord's temple and once again His beloved city.

The new Spiritual Jerusalem, comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1

True.

A problem with many personal believers in Christ, is they somehow think the spiritual things, that are more real than the carnal, are somehow not to be taken as literally as the carnal.

 

[robert derrick]

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Jerusalem is called the Holy city at the start of the GT so it is not currently "Sodom and Egypt" because that is said about the city near the end of the GT.


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Obviously the treading by gentiles of the Holy city for 42 months makes it spiritually called Sodom and Egypt which comes as no surprise given the evil occupiers.

1. The first problem is that any building made with wicked unbelieving hands, that would just as soon crucify His Son afresh on earth, is then called by God in Scripture, The temple of God.

2. Ezekiel was also told to measure this future temple of God, that was not yet made.

The fact that the worshipping saints, are also to be measured, speaks more of righteous judgment, than of wood and stone. That is what occurred once before with the children of Israel in Ezekiel 9.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

They will be treading the outer court at His return.

3. The great tribulation, against the saints, has already begun with the resurrection of Jesus, where many antichrist beasts have already gone out. That includes some with earthly power to enforce their bodily will over the saints, to one degree or another.

And so, if Rev 11:1 is indeed the great tribulation that now is, where is this temple of God?

4. While I respect the KJ translation as my own, that does not mean every word is doctrinally correct, even if grammatically acceptable.

At this time, there is no Jew nor Gentile before God, but only saints and unbelievers. Therefore, the nations now treading the outer court, are all unbelievers on earth, whether Jew of Gentile.

Obviously the treading by gentiles of the Holy city for 42 months makes it spiritually called Sodom and Egypt which comes as no surprise given the evil occupiers.

Which is now.

Jerusalem now under the rule of unbelieving Jews, is now spiritually Sodom and Egypt, just as with any false religion on earth, for there is no respect of persons with the Lord.

Only that ground and city, where the Lord now dwells and reigns on earth, is holy ground and city.

 

[robert derrick]

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Jerusalem is called the Holy city at the start of the GT so it is not currently "Sodom and Egypt" because that is said about the city near the end of the GT.


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Obviously the treading by gentiles of the Holy city for 42 months makes it spiritually called Sodom and Egypt which comes as no surprise given the evil occupiers.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

I say the temple of God spoken of is now in heaven, waiting for heaven to be opened for all to see, which will be after the Lord's return and the resurrection of the two witnesses and rest of the body of Christ. That is when the body and ministry of Christ by mortal flesh and blood, will come to an end on earth, and will be ministered with rod of iron from heaven and on earth.

Out of that temple, will be the short and quick work of righteousness the Lord will pour out over the earth.

Both spiritually and physically speaking in flesh and bones of the Lord, that temple of God on earth now is His body, that the unbelieving nations are already treading upon the outer courts of our lives.

That measured and judged temple will be seen in heaven, and will be both the resurrected Head and body of Christ in the air.

The nations on earth will be angry at being left behind, and many will even be as reprobate stupid as Pharaoh driving into the Red Sea bed, so as to actually gather at Armageddon, and try to make war with the Lamb and His armies in the air.

I don not believe the physical temple prophesied in Ezekiel, is not the temple and body of Christ spoken of in Rev 11, now on earth, and then in heaven of over this earth.

I believe the saints in clouds with the Lord in the air, will be tossing talents as hailstones back upon the earth.

It will be the prepping barrage for the Lord's returning invasion on earth.

 

[robert derrick]

The city now that God loves in revelation chapter 20 is the new Jerusalem the church

Hebrews 12:23-23
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Spiritually speaking and in flesh and bones of the Jesus, yes.

However, heavenly Jerusalem itself is the ministry of Christ and mother of us all:

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[robert derrick]

This is two different TIMELINES.

One is during the 70th week when the Two-witnesses die.

The other is after Jesus 1000 year reign.

It is not the real Gog and Magog War. It is John using the coming Gog and Magog War which happens just before the Pre Trib Rapture pr just after the 70th week starts. Just like John uses Old Testament verbiage throughout the book of Revelation, here he is using the Ezekiel verbiage, but the strange thing here is the Gog & Magog war happens in the future from where we are, TWICE, the real one AND the one John used to give an End Time Analogy with. Let me give an example, read Rev. 17 the Harlot falls, now go read Dan. 5, the Mene Mene Tekel chapter. Rev. 17 is basically Dan. 5 repurposed. Look at it, he does the same thing with Ezekiel's Gog and Magog.

The problem is what He does with Revelation's Gog and Magog, is He destroys all of them, and I say scorches all the earth with them.

I say, 2 Peter 3 must be fulfilled in Rev 20, because immediately after that fire from heaven, is the departing of the old earth.

Although, I haven't looked at your interpretations in detail yet.

 

[Keraz]

Explain more please.

The forthcoming worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, will commence all the end time Prophesied events.
It will change the world to a similar degree as what happened in the days of Noah.

I suppose the wicked city and temple made with hands of the unbelievers, can be built by them,

The new Temple will be built by the Christian peoples, Zechariah 6:15, and as detailed in Ezekiel 40 to 46. It will be God's Temple. 2 Thess 2:4.

For more articles detailing the Prophesies about how the end times will unfold, see my website.

 

[robert derrick]

There are a little over a 1000 yrs. between your two scriptures.

True.

However, I believe spiritually corrupt Jerusalem, will become the beloved city, once the Lord sits on the throne of David with His glory.

 

[ewq1938]

Jerusalem now under the rule of unbelieving Jews, is now spiritually Sodom and Egypt

Yet it is called the Holy city at the start of the GT and is only spiritually called Sodom and Egypt near the end of it. This signifies a change in the city during the evil occupation of the beast and his followers etc.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The problem is what He does with Revelation's Gog and Magog, is He destroys all of them, and I say scorches all the earth with them.

I say, 2 Peter 3 must be fulfilled in Rev 20, because immediately after that fire from heaven, is the departing of the old earth.

Although, I haven't looked at your interpretations in detail yet.

Yes it is, Peter 2:3 and Rev. 20:9 matches, but its nit the Gog & Magog War of Ezekiel 38 and 39, John just uses that to tell an END TIME STORY, we know its not the same by doing what you proposed, reading the scriptures and verifying do they match.

Gog and Magog are defeated by God, after they come against Israel, they are Russia, Turkey and Iran. But in the end time "Gog and Magog" war we see God destroys this whole world, it is set ablaze, it melts. Here is the facts as I see them, this earth, and probably this whole Universe becomes the habitation of the wicked, it becomes hell, Satan wins his prize, we all move on to a New Heaven and New Earth with no Sea in it. New Jerusalem. Whereas the original Gog and Magog is God destroying only Russia, Iran and Turkey's armies, thus preparing the way for the E.U. Anti-Christ to come to power. The Apophis Asteroid then destroys the USA, he has an open path at that moment in time.

So, yes, the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Gog and Magog War is actual nations coming against Israel. The "Gog and Magog" of Rev. 20:9 is simply those people on earth, who lived under Jesus for 1000 years, turning back to Satan once he is released, and thus God will send fire onto them as humans, but, IMHO, they will then be placed straight into hell, which I see as this earth, which God sets ablaze.

 

[Trekson]

True.

However, I believe spiritually corrupt Jerusalem, will become the beloved city, once the Lord sits on the throne of David with His glory.

The goals of Dan. 9:24 need to be completed before the end of the 70th week. When they are, the "real and permanent" Triumphant entry w/ Jesus will occur after Armageddon.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes it is, Peter 2:3 and Rev. 20:9 matches, but its nit the Gog & Magog War of Ezekiel 38 and 39, John just uses that to tell an END TIME STORY, we know its not the same by doing what you proposed, reading the scriptures and verifying do they match.

Gog and Magog are defeated by God, after they come against Israel, they are Russia, Turkey and Iran. But in the end time "Gog and Magog" war we see God destroys this whole world, it is set ablaze, it melts. Here is the facts as I see them, this earth, and probably this whole Universe becomes the habitation of the wicked, it becomes hell, Satan wins his prize, we all move on to a New Heaven and New Earth with no Sea in it. New Jerusalem. Whereas the original Gog and Magog is God destroying only Russia, Iran and Turkey's armies, thus preparing the way for the E.U. Anti-Christ to come to power. The Apophis Asteroid then destroys the USA, he has an open path at that moment in time.

So, yes, the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Gog and Magog War is actual nations coming against Israel. The "Gog and Magog" of Rev. 20:9 is simply those people on earth, who lived under Jesus for 1000 years, turning back to Satan once he is released, and thus God will send fire onto them as humans, but, IMHO, they will then be placed straight into hell, which I see as this earth, which God sets ablaze.

I agreed with your point in another place, about Gog must be at Armageddon, and then Gog and Magog will next be around the beloved city,

Don't know about any Apophis asteroid.

However, You are the first one to speak of this earth becoming hell itself, and now I completely agree, since I have found someone else independently suggesting it. And I will add that the lake of fire becomes this earth and stars.

Those that want the flesh and earth more than God and heaven, as you say, will reap it forever.

The earth is scorched and melted, but not destroyed into nothing, (Since there is no oblivion of uncreating anything, that God has already created, including spirits of angels and souls of men), and so we also see it flees from the face of God on the throne, along with the stars of old.

The angels and those that sin as them, are the condemned to inhabit them forever.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Wandering is from the Greek for planet: the lake of fire, where death and earthy hell will be cast, is the old wandering planet and stars, fleeing from God forever.

And they have no light nor will give any light, but only have tormenting flames of darkness.

The angels that sinned were cast into hell, which Jesus confirms is in the heart of the earth, and they are held in chains of darkness for the judgment.
,
The flames of hell and the lake of fire are the planets and stars eternally chained to all spiritual beings, angel and man, that are separated from God the true Light, where there is no light to see at all, but only tormenting flames of fire, wandering alone on their own in black darkness from the face of God.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The only light in the damned are and will be great dark blackness indeed, except we repent of sinning like the angels as children of the devil.

 

[ewq1938]

. And I will add that the lake of fire becomes this earth and stars.

According to Rev 20, the LOF is not located on the Earth so, no, the Earth does not become the LOF. The Earth is symbolically burned to renmove all the evil elements resulting in a new Earth (same for heaven)

 

[Timtofly]

Wandering is from the Greek for planet: the lake of fire, where death and earthy hell will be cast, is the old wandering planet and stars, fleeing from God forever.

Talking about avoiding useless mythology, why are you incorporating this thought into Scripture?

Creation does not flee from God. That is what John called it, because it ceases to exist. This fleeing is not an ongoing phenomenon in a vast "universe of reality.

To straighten this out, is the alleged universe the same as eternity?

Or is this universe a mirage and the earth and firmament the only reality there is?

Creation does not "float away" into eternity. Certainly not to the point there are many creations floating in eternity, able to or not able to combine into each other or avoid each other. Seems you are describing creation in regards to other creations, as if they can exist independently in eternity, as just having attributes of current human science, which does not even accurately describe this creation. In other words, you are using Satan's virtual 14 billion year old universe invented by science, to define creation itself in terms of creation's place in eternity.

When heaven rolls back as a scroll per first century lingo, it technically will be dissolving as a video screen that modern humans have projected as this vast universe, that does not exist at all. Once this virtual reality is burned away above us, which is the 6th Seal, all on earth will loose their spiritual blindness, because at the 6th Seal, all will see God, including His face miles above the earth on that GWT. So 1,000 years later heaven and earth does not flee away from this GWT. That is symbolism.

Jesus will simply hand back creation to God, and current reality will be replaced by a totally brand new reality. Current creation will be replaced by a NHNE. Fled away just being symbolic of no longer existing. There really is no point of creation "floating somewhere", as all humans will transition from one reality to the next. And unfortunately it does not even say we get a vast universe this time. Something that only Satan could come up with to get our mind off of God's current heaven and earth reality. Unless you think actual stars, the angels, can transform both into humans and physical worlds at will?

 

[robert derrick]

According to Rev 20, the LOF is not located on the Earth so, no, the Earth does not become the LOF.

You're not really reading what I say. The melted earth is then hell cast into the lake of fire, whereas hell is now in the heart of the earth.

The earthly hell becomes part of the LOF, along with all the old stars of the heavens.

The Earth is symbolically burned to renmove all the evil elements resulting in a new Earth (same for heaven)

I don't do symbol, where no obvious symbol is. Some people make much of the Bible only myth and legend, by making many Scriptures only symbol.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The new heaven and earth cannot be a 'resurrected' old earth and heaven, because the old is fled from the face of God and passed away forever from His sight.

By the reasons I've given, that are not responded to as written, I can teach the lake of fire is the old heaven and scorched earth of hell, that are for them judged to be with those wandering stars forever.

It is black darkness, because they give no light, only burning torment.

 

[robert derrick]

Talking about avoiding useless mythology, why are you incorporating this thought into Scripture?

Making a symbol out of what is not plainly symbolic, is what makes myth out of Scripture.

Creation does not flee from God.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

This heaven and earth certainly does.

And them that flee His presence now on this earth, will flee with this earth from His sight forever.

That is what John called it, because it ceases to exist. This fleeing is not an ongoing phenomenon in a vast "universe of reality.

A false teaching following a contradiction of Scripture.

You would do better, if you actually made sure Scripture does not contradict you, when saying something about God and His Word.

I mean, that's pretty much common sense, with just a little discipline.

To straighten this out, is the alleged universe the same as eternity?

This heaven and earth is eternal, but will not be as it is now forever.

Thee is nothing once created by God, that becomes uncreated by God.

God is the Creator, not an uncreator, even as the Word is God, not a god.

Creation does not "float away" into eternity.

No, it flees. First make sure you're correct, before trying to make something silly.

Seems you are describing creation in regards to other creations, as if they can exist independently in eternity,

Since Scripture says this heaven and earth will flee forever from the face of God, then I believe it.

And them that live indepently of God unto the end, will flee with the old heaven and earth, and pass away from His sight, and any knowledge of them on the new earth.

as just having attributes of current human science, which does not even accurately describe this creation.

Trying to teach doctrine of Scripture by science known by man, is not wise.

Science says it's impossible for the sun to stand still, without the earth being devastated at the same time.

Or that angles can hold the 4 winds of all the earth from blowing.

Once this virtual reality is burned away above us, which is the 6th Seal, all on earth will loose their spiritual blindness, because at the 6th Seal, all will see God, including His face miles above the earth on that GWT.

They will lose their unbelief that there is a God in heaven, that is now on earth.

That does not mean they will begin to believe the Lord with faith in Him as Savior and God.

We walk by faith, and not by sight.

So 1,000 years later heaven and earth does not flee away from this GWT. That is symbolism.

As many other things in scripture are made symbol and myth only, by you and others, that are writing your own Symbol Man's Bible.

Jesus will simply hand back creation to God, and current reality will be replaced by a totally brand new reality.

Jesus will hand His people over to God.

Not this heaven and earth, that will be melted by the fire of God.

Unless you think actual stars, the angels, can transform both into humans and physical worlds at will?

There is only one Creator and God that all things are created and made by: Jesus Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

You're not really reading what I say. The melted earth is then hell cast into the lake of fire, whereas hell is now in the heart of the earth.

The earthly hell becomes part of the LOF, along with all the old stars of the heavens.

The Earth never becomes hell nor is cast into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

This heaven and earth certainly does.

And them that flee His presence now on this earth, will flee with this earth from His sight forever.

You are hanging by a thread here.

"For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

John sees them flee away because they return to God, not flee away from God.

Do you simply do away with the fact that creation returns to the creator from where it began? How far away do you think creation can run from God in your scenario?

John is simply pointing out current creation no longer exists, making way for the NHNE.

 

[robert derrick]

The Earth never becomes hell nor is cast into the LOF.

Since the earth is scorched and melted, and hell is in the heart of the earth, then it's not far fetched to say earth becomes hell, or even a hellish earth.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

This becomes more than symbolic on earth.

In any case, if you prefer the earth becoming gutted of hell, which is cast into the lake of fire, while the earth flees from the face of God, then so bet it.

And since you're not offering corrections, but only your own opinion, then I'll stick with mine. I like it better.

 

[robert derrick]

You are hanging by a thread here.

"For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This is of all things on earth, that will be ruled over at His return.

We don't see that yet on earth, but we do see Jesus who will return and do it.

Beginning with the plagues prepping the earth, before the slaughter at Armageddon.

John sees them flee away because they return to God, not flee away from God.

Do you simply do away with the fact that creation returns to the creator from where it began? How far away do you think creation can run from God in your scenario?

John is simply pointing out current creation no longer exists, making way for the NHNE.

There is no such thing as oblivion. God does not uncreate anything He has created.

The old heaven and earth alone with the lake of fire will forever flee and be banished from the sight of god, as well as them in it, from the life of Christ.

It will be a place of great dark blackness wandering forever without the Lord, nor having anything to do with the new heaven and earth, where God dwells with man.

The flames of hell are tormenting chains of darkness, that neither have nor give light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[Timtofly]

This is of all things on earth, that will be ruled over at His return.

We don't see that yet on earth, but we do see Jesus who will return and do it.

Beginning with the plagues prepping the earth, before the slaughter at Armageddon.


There is no such thing as oblivion. God does not uncreate anything He has created.

The old heaven and earth alone with the lake of fire will forever flee and be banished from the sight of god, as well as them in it, from the life of Christ.

It will be a place of great dark blackness wandering forever without the Lord, nor having anything to do with the new heaven and earth, where God dwells with man.

The flames of hell are tormenting chains of darkness, that neither have nor give light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

What does oblivion have to do with your topic?

It is called a lake of fire. I will stick with that.

Current creation will return to God where it came from. It will literally cease to exist. The LOF is not part of current creation. If this is not a literal place, and just a concept in God's mind, what is the point in conflating the LOF with any creation, which is literal, tangible, and physical. If this LOF is a physical creation, then it is separate from heaven and earth, either current or new. It is introduced prior to the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. It already exists, so cannot be the outcome of current heaven and earth passing away, ie handed back to God.