Jerusalem of the beast vs The Beloved City of the saints

[shilohsfoal]

This is a nice video of the abomination that causes desolation which will be placed in Jerusalem on the day of the Lord.It comes with it's own lake of fire to consume the flesh of those who have attacked Jerusalem.The Israeli government and those who have misled the Israelis will take a swim as well.

I'd say the king of the north will place quite a few of these babies in all the cities from Iran to Egypt.

 

[robert derrick]

The only people left in the promised land will be those whom the Lord saves.

And then the 1000 years begins.

Including those natural sheep over all the earth, which will be the nations of people not killed by plagues, nor smitten in war, nor executed as goats.

The earth will have a new beginning with His reign.

 

[Timtofly]

You're just continuing playing games with what others say.

When this heaven and earth is burned up and flees from the face of God, and has passed away out of sight mind, then God creates a new heaven and earth to dwell with man on.

If you want to call it 'non-existence', like those who preach a heaven or oblivion gospel, then that's your choice, not mine.

The torment of hell is removed by them, that want to believe in heaven, but not hell.

The point is, it is passed away from the physical view. That literally means it no longer exists. Creation returns to God from where it started. It was nothing prior to Genesis 1. Creation is nothing after Revelation 20:11. There is a NHNE, and the former things are passed away, no longer around.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

This is a totally separate issue from the LOF, a separate creation altogether. The LOF did not pass away. Scripture clearly states the first heaven and earth no longer exist, period.

Current creation is replaced with the second set of heaven and earth, as the first set indicates a second set replacing the first set. It does not say the third set is replaced by a fourth set. It is implying a second set replaces the original first set.

The issue is you have a perfect creation disappearing into the LOF. That is your private imagination as your private interpretation. Don't go blaming others for your own reasoning, avoiding the point. Creation is not dissolved nor burned at the end of the 1,000 years. The firmament is dissolved and all the works on earth are burned up per 2 Peter 3 at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. That is not the same event that happens at the end of the 1,000 years. 2 Peter 3 is not explicitly nor implying an event 1,000 years after the Second Coming. The period of looking for and waiting for the NHNE is the 1,000 years. There is no looking for and waiting in Revelation 20:11.

You have the mindset of Amil and postmill that claims all the destruction is at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. That is human theological error. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, clearly states that Jesus hands back a fully subjected and perfect creation worthy of the name Jesus Messiah and Prince as indicated in Daniel 9:24-27. That means all the destruction and renewal happens during this time, Matthew 24:15-36, and is over before the 1,000 year reign, Day of the Lord even starts. There is no post mill cataclysmic destruction and change.

 

[robert derrick]

The point is, it is passed away from the physical view.

Correct.

That literally means it no longer exists.

That's your meaning only.

Yes, a tree in the woods fallen unseen by man, still makes a sound, when it fell.

Creation returns to God from where it started.

Created spirits on earth, yes. Not created trees, that have no spirit.

It was nothing prior to Genesis 1.

True.

Creation is nothing after Revelation 20:11.

Old creation is nothing to God nor man in the new creation, because the old is out of sight and mind.

There is a NHNE, and the former things are passed away, no longer around.

True. No longer anywhere around the new heaven and earth to grieve over.

This is a totally separate issue from the LOF, a separate creation altogether. The LOF did not pass away. Scripture clearly states the first heaven and earth no longer exist, period.

They pass away. Period.

Current creation is replaced with the second set of heaven and earth, as the first set indicates a second set replacing the first set. It does not say the third set is replaced by a fourth set. It is implying a second set replaces the original first set.

The OT is passed away and replace by the NT, and yet the OT still exists in Scripture, and still has honor from God.

The issue is you have a perfect creation disappearing into the LOF.

The issue is, you still mistate what I plainly say, and have done so enough times, to now know you do it on purpose, in order to dismiss it.

There's no need to twist teachings you don't agree with, just to dismiss them.

When you repeatedly show yourself dishonest about what others teach from Scripture, then that shows your probability of doing the same with Scripture as well.

That is your private imagination as your private interpretation.

Not what you mistate, but what I teach is indeed from my own private interpretation of Scriptures, that I make sense of from what is plainly written.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Creation is not dissolved nor burned at the end of the 1,000 years.

Perhaps not, since the fire of God coming down from heaven, when a thousand years of the Lord's earthly reign expires, only speaks of devouring Gog and Magog surrounding the holy city and camp of the saints one earth.

The firmament is dissolved and all the works on earth are burned up per 2 Peter 3 at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal.

I only read of the flesh of the northern armies being burned around Armageddon and Judea, by the brightness of Jesus' coming.

And them remaining on earth, will keep the feast of tabernacles with Christ Himself in Jerusalem.

Those who refuse to come, will be punished without rain, until they do obey or die.

That is not the same event that happens at the end of the 1,000 years.

True, the brightness of the Lord's coming again on earth, is not the fire of God a thousand years later.

2 Peter 3 is not explicitly nor implying an event 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

No, John is recording it in Rev 20.

Full interpretation of prophecy of Scripture, is not usually from one prophecy of Scripture alone. It takes several Scripture to reveal the fullness of the prophecy.

The period of looking for and waiting for the NHNE is the 1,000 years.

Interesting. I'm looking and waiting for the end of my mortal body on earth, whether by the grave or by His second appearing.

We are now looking for the blessed hope of the first blessed resurrection of our bodies, to meet with the Lord in the air.

However, Hebrews 11 does say we ought be looking for that New Jerusalem on the new earth.

Those saved during Christ's reign on earth, will not be looking for His second appearing, but will also be looking for the city made by God Himself.

There is no looking for and waiting in Revelation 20:11.

Yes there is. The rest of the dead resurrected to find their names written in the Lamb's book of life, or find themselves cast into the LOF.

The saints of the first resurrection at that time, are looking to see who is resurrected with them, as well as the new heaven and earth at the end of that judgment.

You have the mindset of Amil and postmill that claims all the destruction is at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

No. Much of it is at His slaughter round and about Armageddon, without quarter.

We read of Gog and Magog being devoured by fire of God a thousand years later.

Once again, you need to quote me, unless you are purposing to misquote me.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28, clearly states that Jesus hands back a fully subjected and perfect creation worthy of the name Jesus Messiah and Prince as indicated in Daniel 9:24-27.

He will hand over all His saints, at the end of His reign on earth.

Not any trees.

That means all the destruction and renewal happens during this time, Matthew 24:15-36, and is over before the 1,000 year reign, Day of the Lord even starts.

The day of the Lord is come on earth and started, when the Lord is come on earth in the flesh.

And His day is still here on earth, in the Person of His Spirit dwelling within the saints born of God on earth.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

 

[Timtofly]

That's your meaning only.

Your meaning is that both creations exist side by side?

If something did not exist prior to beginning, why would it exist after ending?

 

[Timtofly]

The issue is, you still mistate what I plainly say, and have done so enough times, to now know you do it on purpose, in order to dismiss it.

There's no need to twist teachings you don't agree with, just to dismiss them.

When you repeatedly show yourself dishonest about what others teach from Scripture, then that shows your probability of doing the same with Scripture as well.

How have I mistated this:

The earth is scorched and melted, but not destroyed into nothing, (Since there is no oblivion of uncreating anything, that God has already created, including spirits of angels and souls of men), and so we also see it flees from the face of God on the throne, along with the stars of old.

The angels and those that sin as them, are the condemned to inhabit them forever.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots.

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Wandering is from the Greek for planet: the lake of fire, where death and earthy hell will be cast, is the old wandering planet and stars, fleeing from God forever.

And they have no light nor will give any light, but only have tormenting flames of darkness.

The angels that sinned were cast into hell, which Jesus confirms is in the heart of the earth, and they are held in chains of darkness for the judgment.
,
The flames of hell and the lake of fire are the planets and stars eternally chained to all spiritual beings, angel and man, that are separated from God the true Light, where there is no light to see at all, but only tormenting flames of fire, wandering alone on their own in black darkness from the face of God.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The only light in the damned are and will be great dark blackness indeed, except we repent of sinning like the angels as children of the devil.

You claim current creation "wanders" around while fleeing from God.

I pointed out that was wrong.

 

[robert derrick]

Your meaning is that both creations exist side by side?

If something did not exist prior to beginning, why would it exist after ending?

A city ends when laid waste, but there remains the rubble and ruins.

Scriptural destruction is of being completely laid waste.

Annihilation to oblivion is man's imaginary concept only.

 

[robert derrick]

How have I mistated this:



You claim current creation "wanders" around while fleeing from God.

I pointed out that was wrong.

Now you are correct.

Jude
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Rev 20
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

It's a simple conclusion based on simple words, speaking of the same thing.

Both the old heaven and earth, as well as the hypocrites, will be wandering stars fleeing from the face of God forever.

 

[Timtofly]

A city ends when laid waste, but there remains the rubble and ruins.

Scriptural destruction is of being completely laid waste.

Annihilation to oblivion is man's imaginary concept only.

I never said to oblivion in ruins. You did.

Creation returns to God. Last time I checked, God was not oblivion. God is all that exists. There is no oblivion. It is called eternity without beginning and without end. It would be nice if you stopped projecting this oblivion error and at least use the word eternity. There is nothing else besides God in eternity. Not even a rogue creation. There is literally nothing that can hide from God.

 

[Timtofly]

Now you are correct.

Jude
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Rev 20
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

It's a simple conclusion based on simple words, speaking of the same thing.

Both the old heaven and earth, as well as the hypocrites, will be wandering stars fleeing from the face of God forever.

Nope. Only those souls in the LOF. No where does it say heaven and earth join the LOF. That is your own private interpretation that you have come up with to replace the Word of God. You are totally ignoring Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:24:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;"

Jesus delivers up this current creation to God. Heaven and earth are the kingdom. When Jesus hands back the kingdom creation is as perfect as it was in Genesis 1, when the Word spoke it all into existence.

The only thing that "wanders" off is the LOF.

 

[robert derrick]

I never said to oblivion in ruins. You did.

Oblivion is nothingness. I'll stick with your words.

There is nothing created, that becomes nothing again. God does not uncreate anything.

Creation returns to God. Last time I checked, God was not oblivion. God is all that exists.

Trees exist. Trees is not God.

There is nothing else besides God in eternity.

There exists the new heaven and earth, and the nations on that earth.

God dwells with man at that time. God does not become creation nor man.

Your pagan spiritual pantheology is false.

Not even a rogue creation. There is literally nothing that can hide from God.

True. We can flee, but not hide.

I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Without God, there is no life, but there is plenty of blackness of darkness for ever.

You reject the words of Scripture and their plain meaning, for your own kind of theology. And while it's been interesting, we're going in too many circles.

Unless you bring in something new, I'll be moving on.

 

[robert derrick]

Nope. Only those souls in the LOF. No where does it say heaven and earth join the LOF. That is your own private interpretation that you have come up with to replace the Word of God. You are totally ignoring Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:24:

True. Not the contradicting part, but the private part. Unless more Scripture is available to make it proven to myself.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;"

Jesus delivers up this current creation to God. Heaven and earth are the kingdom. When Jesus hands back the kingdom creation is as perfect as it was in Genesis 1, when the Word spoke it all into existence.

The only thing that "wanders" off is the LOF.

Now, you are contradicting yourself, because Jude is speaking of hypocrites.

Also, no Scripture specifically says anything about the LOF fleeing nor wandering off.

The old heaven earth are not said to be wandering off, but fleeing. Not exactly the same thing.

So, we have wandering off hypocrites like planet stars, and fleeing heaven and earth, and hell in the heart of the earth, cast into the LOF.

It also puts new light on how all nations forgetting God shall be turned into hell, literally.

Although the burnt up and dissolved heaven and earth is a good contender from being in, if not the LOF, I don't see it as quite proven. Yet.

 

[Timtofly]

Oblivion is nothingness. I'll stick with your words.

There is nothing created, that becomes nothing again. God does not uncreate anything.




Trees exist. Trees is not God.



There exists the new heaven and earth, and the nations on that earth.

God dwells with man at that time. God does not become creation nor man.

Your pagan spiritual pantheology is false.



True. We can flee, but not hide.

I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Without God, there is no life, but there is plenty of blackness of darkness for ever.

You reject the words of Scripture and their plain meaning, for your own kind of theology. And while it's been interesting, we're going in too many circles.

Unless you bring in something new, I'll be moving on.

So you move on like your alleged creation just moves on?

When Jesus delivers up creation to God it is perfect just as God declared in Genesis 1. That there was nothing is not spiritual pantheology. Why do you keep adding new ways to describe what God's Word actually states? Job 26:7 points out there is nothing besides this creation, we call heaven and earth.

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Other than heaven and earth, there is nothing. It is is just empty space, we call eternity. There is never mentioned another universe nor creation. Genesis 1:1 further illustrates a beginning from nothing.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

God did not create from something already there. The definition of create in this case is from nothing, but from the Word of God. In Proverbs the Holy Spirit talking about wisdom shows there was nothing to this physical world prior to creation.

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;"

Is God proclaiming pantheism in His Word? Thought is there that there was nothing prior to the beginning.

John 1:1-5 declares that creation is the Word and without the Word, nothing physical would exist. Paul declares the end when the Word delivers back to God current creation. God and the Word create again out of nothing a NHNE in Revelation 21.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Blackness and darkness is not part of creation going on forever. This is eternity where nothing exist except for God. What it is, is way beyond our understanding, but it certainly is not physical blackness and darkness. That is just as close as our limited understanding can reveal to us. God is not stated to exist in an universe. God exist in eternity, which to us is the lack of anything physical. You are limiting God to our physical understanding which is pantheism. You seem to think God exists in some physical universe that is spiritual, where creations can just wander off at their will.

 

[Timtofly]

True. Not the contradicting part, but the private part. Unless more Scripture is available to make it proven to myself.


Now, you are contradicting yourself, because Jude is speaking of hypocrites.

Also, no Scripture specifically says anything about the LOF fleeing nor wandering off.

The old heaven earth are not said to be wandering off, but fleeing. Not exactly the same thing.

So, we have wandering off hypocrites like planet stars, and fleeing heaven and earth, and hell in the heart of the earth, cast into the LOF.

It also puts new light on how all nations forgetting God shall be turned into hell, literally.

Although the burnt up and dissolved heaven and earth is a good contender from being in, if not the LOF, I don't see it as quite proven. Yet.

I am not contradicting myself.

You are the one claiming heaven and earth are similar to those hypocrites.

In Revelation 20:11 heaven and earth are not burned up nor dissolved. That is your erroneous teaching that I am pointing out is wrong. Christ delivers heaven and earth back to God as the Word that spoke creation into existence in the first place. Creation came from God. Creation returns to God. John just wrote that transaction as "having fled away", which is symbolic, not literally what happened. It no longer existed, and John watched it dissappear.

 

[robert derrick]

When Jesus delivers up creation to God it is perfect just as God declared in Genesis 1.

There is no perfect natural creation. Natural theology is false.

The only perfect one is God, and the spirits of just men made perfect in the bodily resurrection of the just.

That there was nothing is not spiritual pantheology. Why do you keep adding new ways to describe what God's Word actually states?

What you state. Even the dead body remains as dead bones, becoming nearly as rocks in time. The dissolved elements of heaven and earth will still remain, in order to flee from the face of God.

ob 26:7 points out there is nothing besides this creation, we call heaven and earth.

He's speaking of the earth only, which is over nothing, even as all stars are over nothing.

They will remain dissolved over nothing forever, as they wander forever in dark blackness.

The new earth will hang over nothing as well.

Other than heaven and earth, there is nothing. It is is just empty space, we call eternity.

This is the natural mind talking, God and His heaven and throne is outside His universe that He created.

Just think of the stars at night, as holes through which His light shines from all around.

There is never mentioned another universe nor creation.

Yes, there is. A new heaven and earth.

God did not create from something already there.

Who said there was? What's wrong with you? Why do you try to refute something, that no one has ever said? When talking to me, try sticking to what I say, not what others say, that I've never heard of.

This is why endless debates are stupid.

Blackness and darkness is not part of creation going on forever.

Jude didn't say it will be part of the old heaven and earth, but the wicked dead will be wandering in the blackness of darkness forever.

where creations can just wander off at their will.

Once again, who ever said the old heaven and earth will flee from the face of God, at their own will?

I can't reason with someone, that argues about things, that no one has said.

 

[robert derrick]

You are the one claiming heaven and earth are similar to those hypocrites.

In fleeing from God, yes.

In Revelation 20:11 heaven and earth are not burned up nor dissolved.

In 2 Peter 3, yes.

Creation came from God. Creation returns to God.

Creation is created by God, not comes from God.

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God.

Jesus and His saved people come from God on earth.

He and His people return to God. Not creation.

This heaven and earth will flee from the face of God.

If you use Scripture to talk, then you will say what God says, and not just what you say.

John just wrote that transaction as "having fled away", which is symbolic, not literally what happened.

Ah yes. And now we have it. A symbolizer of things not believed as written in Scripture.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

The Bible is not just another book of fables written by men.

John wrote what He witnessed.

There is no reasoning about the things of the true God in Scripture, with them that make it fables, whenever they don't like what's written.

The sun stood still at the word of Joshua. The Red Sea waves parted, and the children of Israel walked across on dry ground. The dumb ass talked to Balaam. The God of Israel is come in the flesh, died on a cross, and is risen again. This heaven and earth will flee from His face on the throne.