Jerusalem of the beast vs The Beloved City of the saints

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ewq1938

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Since the earth is scorched and melted, and hell is in the heart of the earth, then it's not far fetched to say earth becomes hell, or even a hellish earth.


No. Not one verse ever says the Earth turns into hell. First the hades hell is what is in the Earth and it ceases to be at the GWTJ when thrown in to the LOF hell. After that is when the old Earth is burned so the new Earth may be revealed. There is no further need for a hades hell not to mention it was destroyed. Claiming the Earth becomes the hades hell is nonsensical and impossible since hades is destroyed BEFORE the old Earth is burned.
 

robert derrick

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What does oblivion have to do with your topic?

Nothing until you brought it in.
It is called a lake of fire. I will stick with that.
I know.

Current creation will return to God where it came from. It will literally cease to exist.
Something that comes from God, then returns to God ceases to exist. God has nonexistence in Him. from which comes creation. God is a Creator and Uncreator.

Some of the rarest things are said, when people try to reinforce their own personal teaching, in the face of correction.

At least wicken pagans believe the soul and spirit returns to the earth, to become one with all creation, and living in harmony with Gaia.

Even they don't teach 'returning to non-existence'.

Current heaven and earth will flee from the face of God on the throne, not return to Him to be engulfed in nothingness within Him.

Nor did this heaven and earth come from God, to be a created part of God, which is the pagan spiritism of God being in and part of His own created earth Gaia. They teach heaven and earth come from God, which is not the Scriptural declaration that heaven and earth is created by the word of God.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God's words come from God, and by His Word all things are created in heaven and earth. That which is created is made by His word, not comes from Him.

The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Christ came from God, and Christ is not created, nor has He returned to God to become nothingness.

The LOF is not part of current creation. If this is not a literal place, and just a concept in God's mind, what is the point in conflating the LOF with any creation, which is literal, tangible, and physical.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Since hell and the lake of fire are places made by Christ, then there is no 'if' about it, except that of unbelief in plain meaning of words of Scripture.

That's the problem with the Symbol Man's Bible: it written by them that do not believe the plain meaning of words in Scripture, when they don't like their plain meaning.


If this LOF is a physical creation, then it is separate from heaven and earth, either current or new.

True. And after this heaven and earth have fled from the face of God, then hell from the heart of the earth, will be cast into the lake of fire,


It is introduced prior to the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. It already exists, so cannot be the outcome of current heaven and earth passing away, ie handed back to God.
Bodies dead in the grave are not handed back to God, nor is the grave, nor is heaven and earth, which came not from God, but is created by the Word of God, which is Christ.
 

robert derrick

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No. Not one verse ever says the Earth turns into hell.
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Since all the wicked awake in hell, which is in the heart of the earth, then them being turned into hell is not just living like hell on earth.

And since the wicked dead awake to be turned into hell, then when the earth itself is melted with fervent heat, then it's entirely sensible to say that earth itself with the wicked dead are turned into hell.

The wicked and nations that forget God, are turned into hell with the earth they loved more than God.

That is the final fulfillment of Scripture, that says the wicked will go into the ditch, that they digged.

It's akin to having to lay in the bed one has made for himself.

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
 

Davy

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....
Therefore, it is not possible to conflate the Lord's second coming, with the scorching of the earth by fire of God.
(For those who don't know what the word "conflate" means, it means a blending of things which don't necessarily fit each other.)

Derrick is wrongly suggesting... that 2 Peter 3:10 where Peter said man's works will be burned off this earth by God's consuming fire on the "day of the Lord" does NOT happen on the day when Jesus' 2nd coming happens.

Yet that "day of the Lord" timing is exactly... when God's consuming fire will happen to END this present world, ALONG WITH the day of Christ's future coming...

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with
the brightness of His coming:
KJV

2 Thess 1:7-10
7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV



A more graphic version of the day of His future coming...

Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
KJV
 

Timtofly

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Nothing until you brought it in.

I know.


Something that comes from God, then returns to God ceases to exist. God has nonexistence in Him. from which comes creation. God is a Creator and Uncreator.

Some of the rarest things are said, when people try to reinforce their own personal teaching, in the face of correction.

At least wicken pagans believe the soul and spirit returns to the earth, to become one with all creation, and living in harmony with Gaia.

Even they don't teach 'returning to non-existence'.

Current heaven and earth will flee from the face of God on the throne, not return to Him to be engulfed in nothingness within Him.

Nor did this heaven and earth come from God, to be a created part of God, which is the pagan spiritism of God being in and part of His own created earth Gaia. They teach heaven and earth come from God, which is not the Scriptural declaration that heaven and earth is created by the word of God.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God's words come from God, and by His Word all things are created in heaven and earth. That which is created is made by His word, not comes from Him.

The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Christ came from God, and Christ is not created, nor has He returned to God to become nothingness.


All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Since hell and the lake of fire are places made by Christ, then there is no 'if' about it, except that of unbelief in plain meaning of words of Scripture.

That's the problem with the Symbol Man's Bible: it written by them that do not believe the plain meaning of words in Scripture, when they don't like their plain meaning.




True. And after this heaven and earth have fled from the face of God, then hell from the heart of the earth, will be cast into the lake of fire,



Bodies dead in the grave are not handed back to God, nor is the grave, nor is heaven and earth, which came not from God, but is created by the Word of God, which is Christ.
So you talk pagan while quoting Scripture?

You brought up oblivion, not me.

Since you don't accept that there was nothing before creation, then you are in bed with the pagans.

God never claims to recycle the same reality over and over again. There is nothing in between one creation and the next, because that is what God does. When creation returns to God, it becomes nothing, but God. It ceases to exist.


You make it sound like it can move off into eternity and literally hide somewhere that God cannot find it. John could no longer see current creation, because it returned to God, not that it was hiding from God.

Without God nothing would exist, not that creation is God. Paul said this:

"then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Since creation is handed back to God, God becomes all in all, not that creation becomes God. Creation does cease to exist and only God is left. Certainly creation does not play hide and seek with God, as you declare it wanders off leaving God behind.


Wandering is from the Greek for planet: the lake of fire, where death and earthy hell will be cast, is the old wandering planet and stars, fleeing from God forever.
 
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ewq1938

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The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Since all the wicked awake in hell, which is in the heart of the earth, then them being turned into hell is not just living like hell on earth.

No, that verse doesn't prove the Earth becomes hell. That is SDA nonsense.
 

robert derrick

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No. Not one verse ever says the Earth turns into hell.
True. Only the nations that forget God, who also are in hell. Who are also cast into the lake of fire with hell. Which was in the heart of the earth.

Equally, no Scripture says hell was taken out of the earth before being cast into the lake of fire.

First the hades hell is what is in the Earth and it ceases to be at the GWTJ when thrown in to the LOF hell.

I don't believe in anything created by God becoming uncreated by God. Hell is cast into the lake of fire, and nothing is said about it being destroyed or 'ceasing to exist' therein.
After that is when the old Earth is burned so the new Earth may be revealed.
The earth is burned before the judgement of the rest of the dead, which is before hell is cast into the lake of fire.

There is no further need for a hades hell not to mention it was destroyed.
I don't really of no more need for hell nor the lake of fire, nor the old heaven and earth fleeing from God's face.

That is an assumption.


Claiming the Earth becomes the hades hell is nonsensical and impossible since hades is destroyed BEFORE the old Earth is burned.
To you, but not to me. I can still think of it as a theoretical work in progress.

The point is that many times, such theories beging to gain momentum, as other Scripture start coming into play, that tend to support it.

Such as the nations being turned into hell, is no longer to me just a judgment of them becoming like hell on earth.
 

robert derrick

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So you talk pagan while quoting Scripture?
I show how some teachings Christians hold to, are pagan in origin, and not Scripture.

Since you don't accept that there was nothing before creation, then you are in bed with the pagans.

Those who misstate what others say, lose integrity.

I don't accept that nothing created, ever becomes nothing and uncreated again, which is the heaven or oblivion heresy, rather than everlasting joy in heaven, or torment in hell and the lake of fire.

You make it sound like it can move off into eternity and literally hide somewhere that God cannot find it.
That is your own misreading of Scripture.


John could no longer see current creation, because it returned to God, not that it was hiding from God.

He could see it fleeing from the face of God, not running to God.

Words of Scripture mean exactly what God says they mean.
Without God nothing would exist,
True. Without God creating something from nothing, there would only be God.

Which was the case before He created the spiritual beings, and then heaven and earth, and man. And all creation remains accounted for forever, with nothing becoming uncreated.

Cite the Scripture saying specifically that wehat is once crerated becomes uncreated. And there is no such thing as there being 'nothing' in God from which He creates something.

You are playing around with imaginative metaphysical cosmology, not doctrine of Christ.

All that Scripture says returns to God are the spirit of all flesh on earth, when the natural body dies. Nothing is said about those spirits becoming nothing.

"then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
True. Once Christ has subjected all people on earth to Himself and His rule, then He will subject Himself and all things to God.

Since creation is handed back to God, God becomes all in all, not that creation becomes God.
He's not talking about the earth and stars themselves. They are already subject to Him.

What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

This earth and heaven will flee from the face of God forever.
Creation does cease to exist and only God is left.
That is a ideology of man. I don't argue with people's imaginations taken from something they misread from Scripture.


Certainly creation does not play hide and seek with God, as you declare it wanders off

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
leaving God behind.

God is not behind on anything.

There are those commanded out of His sight forever.
 

ewq1938

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True. Only the nations that forget God, who also are in hell. Who are also cast into the lake of fire with hell. Which was in the heart of the earth.

Equally, no Scripture says hell was taken out of the earth before being cast into the lake of fire.



I don't believe in anything created by God becoming uncreated by God. Hell is cast into the lake of fire, and nothing is said about it being destroyed or 'ceasing to exist' therein.

The earth is burned before the judgement of the rest of the dead, which is before hell is cast into the lake of fire.
The Earth is burned AFTER the judgement of the rest of the dead.

Such as the nations being turned into hell, is no longer to me just a judgment of them becoming like hell on earth.


Hell in Earth is right. Hell ON Earth is not found in scripture.
 

Timtofly

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True. Once Christ has subjected all people on earth to Himself and His rule, then He will subject Himself and all things to God.
That is your verse that claims creation returns to God. God is all that will exist of current creation. You cannot have two creations existing in the same reality doing the same thing. One is gone. The New takes the place the old once was.
 

robert derrick

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No, that verse doesn't prove the Earth becomes hell. That is SDA nonsense.
Didn't say it does. But since thinking about it, I've seen a Scripture here and there supporting it.

We can't be afraid to make leaps of inspiration.

And if it is the truth, then SDA isn't always wrong.
 

robert derrick

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Hell in Earth is right. Hell ON Earth is not found in scripture.
True. But it is found in movies.

Also, I am not promoting hell on earth, but earth turned into hell, after being scorched and melted to where hell is all that's left.

And yet it is still called earth, when fleeing from the face of God.

And since it's all the elements of heaven as well melted, then I say the fleeing heaven and earth is the lake of fire, and all them cast into it are are as the long bomb, or court wide basket.
 

robert derrick

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God is all that will exist of current creation.
Disagree. I don't do metaphysical stuff.

You cannot have two creations existing in the same reality doing the same thing.
You don't think so. The old earth and heaven flee from the face of god and pass away out of sight, out of mind.

They won't be 'doing the same thing' as the new heaven and earth.


One is gone. The New takes the place the old once was.
True. With God dwelling on the new with men.
 

ewq1938

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True. But it is found in movies.

Also, I am not promoting hell on earth, but earth turned into hell, after being scorched and melted to where hell is all that's left.

And yet it is still called earth, when fleeing from the face of God.

And since it's all the elements of heaven as well melted, then I say the fleeing heaven and earth is the lake of fire, and all them cast into it are are as the long bomb, or court wide basket.


The end of Rev 20 is BEFORE the time when the Earth is burned. The Earth and heaven flee because the location of the GWTJ and LOF is not on the Earth nor heaven, but a place away from both.
 

Timtofly

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Disagree. I don't do metaphysical stuff.


You don't think so. The old earth and heaven flee from the face of god and pass away out of sight, out of mind.

They won't be 'doing the same thing' as the new heaven and earth.



True. With God dwelling on the new with men.
So Paul is metaphysical and you reject Paul's writings? John is symbolic, but you accept his writings? You understand that fleeing away is metaphor, not literal.

Perhaps you just don't do physical?

Earth and heaven do not go out of mind out of sight. Why do you keep claiming they do? You are the one doing metaphysical mind tricks.
 

robert derrick

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The end of Rev 20 is BEFORE the time when the Earth is burned. The Earth and heaven flee because the location of the GWTJ and LOF is not on the Earth nor heaven, but a place away from both.
I've thought that before, but now I'm thinking that place away of the LOF is the fleeing heaven and earth of old.

If any proven Scriptures appear, then I'll offer them to you, to see what you think.

The fact that there is no place found for the old earth and lake of fire in the sight of God, nor with His new heaven and earth, puts them in the same place, at least in being away from the new.
 

robert derrick

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So Paul is metaphysical and you reject Paul's writings? John is symbolic, but you accept his writings? You understand that fleeing away is metaphor, not literal.

Perhaps you just don't do physical?

Earth and heaven do not go out of mind out of sight. Why do you keep claiming they do? You are the one doing metaphysical mind tricks.
I count your teaching as metaphysics.

And so, there can be no agreement between us, since I also disagree with your metaphysical ideas about non-existence after being existent.

It has nothing to do with living for Jesus now. It's just a matter of disagreement over such things.
 

ewq1938

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The fact that there is no place found for the old earth and lake of fire in the sight of God

The verse does not include the LOF as part of that. Only heaven and Earth flee.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


All this means is the area where the GWTJ and LOF are conducted is not near heaven or Earth.
 

Timtofly

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I count your teaching as metaphysics.

And so, there can be no agreement between us, since I also disagree with your metaphysical ideas about non-existence after being existent.

It has nothing to do with living for Jesus now. It's just a matter of disagreement over such things.
So Genesis 1:1 it metaphysics because God created all out of nothing?

Or did creation flee to God in Genesis 1:1?

Your metaphysics has creation wondering all over eternity like a rabbit being chased by a wolf.

If they were no longer found, no one could find them, not even God. They literally ceased to exist. There were no living things on them at that point. Humans left one creation and entered the NHNE.

There was nothing of current creation before Genesis 1:1. God created this creation brand new out of nothing. When Jesus hands back creation to God, it will return to God, and no longer be found. It started with nothing, and ended with nothing. It was finite. It had a defined beginning and a defined end. This creation will not be forever hiding from God running around in eternity by itself, as if creation had a mind of it's own. That is metaphysics, and figurative ideology.

The NHNE has a defined beginning. Meaning it could be finite as well. We are not told.
 

robert derrick

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The verse does not include the LOF as part of that. Only heaven and Earth flee.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


All this means is the area where the GWTJ and LOF are conducted is not near heaven or Earth.
True. As I said, as more Scripture may present itself, I'll pass it on for your inspection.

So far, we have old earth and hell away somewhere else.

Now if there is something about the LOF fleeing also...

In the meantime, there is nothing saying the earth is gutted of hell, before being cast into the LOF.