Jerusalem of the beast vs The Beloved City of the saints

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robert derrick

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So Genesis 1:1 it metaphysics because God created all out of nothing?
Already corrected this false presumption about what I say. I'll not bother again,l since it is now on purpose.

Or did creation flee to God in Genesis 1:1?
Creation didn't flee at all in Gen 1:1. Not until Rev 20:11

Your metaphysics has creation wondering all over eternity like a rabbit being chased by a wolf.
Your mocking of Scripture by misreading it, doesn't prove nor disprove anything.

If they were no longer found, no one could find them, not even God.
There was found no place with God, nor in His sight.

They will never be with God in His sight ever again, without blessing and light and life.

Including the wicked and angels and souls of men with them.



There was nothing of current creation before Genesis 1:1. God created this creation brand new out of nothing.
Correct. And will do the same when He creates the new heaven and new earth.


When Jesus hands back creation to God,
He doesn't hand back this earth and heaven after scorching it with fire of God.

Neither will it flee from His face, after handing it back.

He hands His earthly kingdom to God, which is them ruled by Him. Not the earth itself.



it will return to God, and no longer be found. It started with nothing, and ended with nothing. It was finite. It had a defined beginning and a defined end.
No Scriptures speaks of any creation being finite in time, but only of having next things in time.

The next thing for the new heaven and earth in Rev 20, will not be good.

But don't worry about it. The earth and stars don't care.



This creation will not be forever hiding from God running around in eternity by itself, as if creation had a mind of it's own. That is metaphysics, and figurative ideology.
Just as saying it becomes non-existent.

The NHNE has a defined beginning. Meaning it could be finite as well. We are not told.
A defined beginning yes. But not finite.

Scripture does however say, that it will be forever, without need of a new-new heaven and earth.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
 

ewq1938

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True. As I said, as more Scripture may present itself, I'll pass it on for your inspection.

So far, we have old earth and hell away somewhere else.

Now if there is something about the LOF fleeing also...
There isn't because the LOF is where the GWTJ is held which is away from heaven and Earth.



In the meantime, there is nothing saying the earth is gutted of hell, before being cast into the LOF.

Hell/hades is cast into the LOF so it is "gutted" from the Earth. It's not a physical place or original to Earth IMO so it was placed there (or created there) and can be removed and destroyed.
 

Timtofly

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Already corrected this false presumption about what I say. I'll not bother again,l since it is now on purpose.

Creation didn't flee at all in Gen 1:1. Not until Rev 20:11

Your mocking of Scripture by misreading it, doesn't prove nor disprove anything.

There was found no place with God, nor in His sight.

They will never be with God in His sight ever again, without blessing and light and life.

Including the wicked and angels and souls of men with them.

Correct. And will do the same when He creates the new heaven and new earth.

He doesn't hand back this earth and heaven after scorching it with fire of God.

Neither will it flee from His face, after handing it back.

He hands His earthly kingdom to God, which is them ruled by Him. Not the earth itself.

No Scriptures speaks of any creation being finite in time, but only of having next things in time.

The next thing for the new heaven and earth in Rev 20, will not be good.

But don't worry about it. The earth and stars don't care.

Just as saying it becomes non-existent.

A defined beginning yes. But not finite.

Scripture does however say, that it will be forever, without need of a new-new heaven and earth.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
You claim that not existing is metaphysical. Before Genesis 1:1, creation did not exist. In Revelation 20:11 creation stops existing. That is a defined beginning and a defined end.

Even Scripture states: Revelation 1:8

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

God is the creator, and creation does not exist without God.

Giving creation the attribute only attributed to God, eternal, does not make sense when current creation has a beginning, and a prophesied end.

Also the earth is not scorched in Revelation 20:9. Those who are consumed by fire are the last humans to die. Death is the final enemy that is destroyed. There re no more enemies after Death. Creation was perfect when Jesus gave back creation according to 1 Corinthians 15:24

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,"

"Delivered up" indicates that Jesus hands back all creation to God. The explanation is given in the next few verses. And Paul does not see creation flee. That is how John explains how he saw creation dissappear. Here is how Paul sees it:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Paul claims that only God remains when creation has a finite beginning and a defined literal end. John was writing it through symbolism. Paul was giving the literal point of the facts.

Now you are choosing the symbolic over the literal. You are the one pointing out others rely too much on symbolism and miss the literal. We do not need metaphysics to see that it is concepts that go on forever. Creation itself is not a concept. Creation is literal and comes from God, and returns to God. Heaven and earth is the concept part of creation. Heaven and earth are just terms defining creation in a certain way. Now we see heaven as literal. We see earth as literal. But the reality is they are just labels of creation. God gave them names as He created the reality of their existence.

"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

That is why heaven and earth can go on as long as God wills as the names of aspects of creation, even if there is a totally different creation with a defined beginning and a defined end. Heaven and earth can be forever. They can be eternal as concepts. Creation cannot go on for eternity, nor can creation be eternity. That would turn creation itself into God, who is the only eternal being. There is no one else besides God.

Even creation cannot exist beside God. But I am sure you can figure that one out. You claim it is running around outside of God with God in eternity. Paul is the one describing God as all in all. Paul states Jesus delivered up creation to God. Jesus subjected all of creation into His kingdom, and with that subjection the kingdom was all of creation. Jesus literally hands all of creation back and subjected even Himself back to God. His work as the Word complete.
 

robert derrick

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There isn't because the LOF is where the GWTJ is held which is away from heaven and Earth.
Certainly the LOF is where the wicked are cast.

How close or far is not said, nor exactly where it is.

Hell/hades is cast into the LOF so it is "gutted" from the Earth.
Without Scriptural proof, that is a presumption based upon personal opinion.

I just as easily say it is all that is left of the earth, after being melted by fire from God, which is a certain sense from what is written.


It's not a physical place or original to Earth IMO
It is a physical place in the heart of the earth, ever since Lucifer and the sinning angels were cast down there. (Ezek 31) (2 Peter 2)

Being original to earth or not, is interesting, but has no bearing on it being still in the heart of the earth now, as well as when the earth is melted by fire of God.

so it was placed there (or created there) and can be removed and destroyed.
I'm not saying God can't do it. I'm just saying there's no Scripture I know of, that says He does do it.
 

Behold

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In order to prove the doctrine of the millennial reign of Christ, as also being on earth, it is necessary to know the difference between Jerusalem today, under the seat of the beast, vs the beloved city Jerusalem of Christ's reign.

More Sci-Fi theology, Robert?
Its it certainly from outer space and not connected to logic, truth, or the bible.

Listen.
There is one Jerusalem.
It has not changed since Christ Himself looked upon it, and will again.
My home is near it.
Your Theology is bizarre, bordering on SCIENCE FICTION.
 

ewq1938

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Without Scriptural proof, that is a presumption based upon personal opinion.

Everyone knows it is not personal opinion.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.




Being original to earth or not, is interesting, but has no bearing on it being still in the heart of the earth now, as well as when the earth is melted by fire of God.

Wrong. It is no longer in the Earth when the old Earth is burned to prepare for the NHNE
 

robert derrick

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You claim that not existing is metaphysical.
That which is exists becoming non-existence is metaphysical imagination only.

I.e. something that can only be philosophically argued with not conclusion, because it's not in Scripture.


God is the creator, and creation does not exist without God.
As I said. It's a meaningless argument that leads to saying things that have no value.

Like an existing tree cannot exist with being a tree.

Like, duh.


Giving creation the attribute only attributed to God, eternal, does not make sense when current creation has a beginning, and a prophesied end.

The image and nature of God is not just eternal, but eternally true, good, pure, and living. He is the living eternal Spirit.

The error of oblivioniciados, is that think immortality is always a good thing, because they are only think of natural things, and not the spiritual things were good and evil, darkness and light originate.


Also the earth is not scorched in Revelation 20:9. Those who are consumed by fire are the last humans to die.

Actually, that may be true. Scripture only says that the fire devours them surrounding the camp of the saints.

And so, in the next resurrection of the rest of the dead, the sea gives up her dead. There wouldn't be any water left when the lemenets of heaven and earth are melted.


"Delivered up" indicates that Jesus hands back all creation to God.
Once again, you are mixing spiritual and natural. The kingdom of Christ is men and women, not the earth, nor the buildings of men on earth, nor the things of heaven and earth.

Creation of heaven and earth is not the kingdom of God. Nor is it ever perfect, except in being perfectly natural.


The explanation is given in the next few verses. And Paul does not see creation flee. That is how John explains how he saw creation dissappear.
John saw heaven and earth flee away. No doubt there comes a point where he doesn't see it anymore.

Out of sight and out of mind, is disappearing from sight and forgotten. It's not non-existing.

Now you are choosing the symbolic over the literal.
How so?

Heaven and earth can be forever. They can be eternal as concepts.
Remembering something does not keep it alive.

Forgetting something does not make it non-existent.


Even creation cannot exist beside God.
Sure it does. God is not this heaven and earth, neither is His everlasting spiritual kingdom in heaven and earth, but is outside of the heaven and earth He created, when His Spirit moved upon it looking in, and commanded light to shine in it.

You claim it is running around outside of God with God in eternity.
Forever fleeing away from the face of God and the new heaven and earth, that He will dwell with men on.
 

robert derrick

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Everyone knows it is not personal opinion.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The question is not there being LOF or not, but of whether it is this melted heaven and earth, that is then called the LOF.
 

robert derrick

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There is one Jerusalem.
True, and now it is spiritually Sodom and Egypt, but during Christ's reign on earth, it will once again become God's beloved city.

Scripture also speaks of the beloved city and camp of the saints will be then surrounded, which speaks of them being different, especially since Jerusalem has walls, and a camp does not.

I'm thinking the camp of the saints may be made at the site of their first victory over the nations at Armageddon.

Gog and Magog will come for war against the Lord and His saints on this earth one last time.
 

Davy

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The question is not there being LOF or not, but of whether it is this melted heaven and earth, that is then called the LOF.
No, the future "lake of fire" event is not... God's consuming fire event that happens with Christ's future coming to end this present world. Nor is it God's consuming fire that comes down to burn up the deceived that Satan leads against the "camp of the saints" after Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

The "lake of fire" is a one-time event, sort of. At Christ's coming the beast and false prophet are cast into it and destroyed. And then only after... Christ's future 1,000 years reign does Satan, the wicked, hell, and death, get cast into it and are destroyed.

I really don't understand how anyone could get confused about that, since it is well written of.
 

robert derrick

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No, the future "lake of fire" event is not... God's consuming fire event that happens with Christ's future coming to end this present world. Nor is it God's consuming fire that comes down to burn up the deceived that Satan leads against the "camp of the saints" after Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

The "lake of fire" is a one-time event, sort of. At Christ's coming the beast and false prophet are cast into it and destroyed. And then only after... Christ's future 1,000 years reign does Satan, the wicked, hell, and death, get cast into it and are destroyed.

I really don't understand how anyone could get confused about that, since it is well written of.
There is no confusion about the events with the LOF.

The question is whether this melted heaven and earth become the LOF.

Showing how the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF at the beginning of Christ's reign on earth, is a good point.

And so, a later melted heaven and earth, would need to be also cast into the LOF as well, and become part of it alone with Satan and the wicked angels and men.

And since hell is in the heart of the earth, then the melted earth would be with hell cast into it.
 

Davy

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There is no confusion about the events with the LOF.

The question is whether this melted heaven and earth become the LOF.

Showing how the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF at the beginning of Christ's reign on earth, is a good point.

And so, a later melted heaven and earth, would need to be also cast into the LOF as well, and become part of it alone with Satan and the wicked angels and men.

And since hell is in the heart of the earth, then the melted earth would be with hell cast into it.
Certainly sounds like you are confusing the "lake of fire" with God's consuming fire events.

Jesus compared the future "lake of fire" to the Valley of Hinnom, a place outside the walls of Jerusalem that because a garbage pit where garbage perpetually burned. He compared it specifically as a place where The Father will literally destroy souls cast into it called the "second death". So no, that is not the same event as God's consuming fire that burns the deceived nations that follow Satan after Christ's 1,000 years reign. The two events are described separately.
 

ewq1938

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The question is not there being LOF or not, but of whether it is this melted heaven and earth, that is then called the LOF.


The Earth is not at the same location where the LOF is. Hades which is called hell is in the Earth but will be cast into the LOF so obviously hell (LOF) is located in a separate place than hell (hades).
 

robert derrick

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Certainly sounds like you are confusing the "lake of fire" with God's consuming fire events.

Jesus compared the future "lake of fire" to the Valley of Hinnom, a place outside the walls of Jerusalem that because a garbage pit where garbage perpetually burned. He compared it specifically as a place where The Father will literally destroy souls cast into it called the "second death". So no, that is not the same event as God's consuming fire that burns the deceived nations that follow Satan after Christ's 1,000 years reign. The two events are described separately.
True.
 

Timtofly

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That which is exists becoming non-existence is metaphysical imagination only.
No it is not. God is not a metaphysical construction. That nothing exist besides God is God's Word, not something a human thought up. Unless you think God has hundreds of creations going on simultaneously, then there is only one creation at a time. When this creation ceases to exist, then the next one takes it place.

It is metaphysical to say there are hundreds of creations out there playing hide and seek from God. Scripture only declares one creation exists at a time.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
I thank the Lord for this post and I thank you for it. God bless.
 
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Keraz

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I thank the Lord for this post and I thank you for it. God bless.
But will the Lord thank anyone who denies the plain Words of scripture?
The six mentions of the thousand years, after Jesus Returns in Revelation 20 and the many Bible references to a final Sabbath period, after the 6000 year time for mankind's rule of the earth.

The AMill belief is not a Salvation issue, we will soon know who had it right, but associated with AMill, is the false idea that Satan is bound now and when Jesus Returns, Eternity will commence. Both beliefs are wrong and cause confusion.
 

ewq1938

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The AMill belief is not a Salvation issue, we will soon know who had it right, but associated with AMill, is the false idea that Satan is bound now and when Jesus Returns, Eternity will commence.


What is a salvation issue though? What theology could lead to such an issue?
 

robert derrick

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It is metaphysical to say there are hundreds of creations out there playing hide and seek from God.
You're just continuing playing games with what others say.

When this heaven and earth is burned up and flees from the face of God, and has passed away out of sight mind, then God creates a new heaven and earth to dwell with man on.

If you want to call it 'non-existence', like those who preach a heaven or oblivion gospel, then that's your choice, not mine.

The torment of hell is removed by them, that want to believe in heaven, but not hell.
 

shilohsfoal

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In order to prove the doctrine of the millennial reign of Christ, as also being on earth, it is necessary to know the difference between Jerusalem today, under the seat of the beast, vs the beloved city Jerusalem of Christ's reign.

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The Jerusalem that now is, cannot possibly be the beloved city of the saints, that will be surrounded by Gog and Magog.

The only way for Jerusalem on this earth, that is now spiritually Sodom and Egypt, to become once again the holy and beloved city of God and of David, is by the Lord Himself seated as King in Israel, with spiritual reformation, and outward transformation of them living therein.

It is impossible to mistake this Jerusalem at the time of the armies at Armageddon, with the camp of the saints surrounded by Gog and Magog.

Therefore, it is not possible to conflate the Lord's second coming, with the scorching of the earth by fire of God.
The Lord's second coming corresponds to same time the king of the north obliterates the middle east and north Africa.

Daniel 11:44
But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

The US didn't develope it's nuclear stockpile for looks.They are there to use if needed.I suspect there will be hundreds of millions of dead Muslims in the middle.east on the day of the Lord.All of the nations that have attacked Israel will be utterly desolate.The only people left in the promised land will be those whom the Lord saves.

And then the 1000 years begins.
 
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