Jesus and Commands

[BobRyan]

Adventists do not believe a child has a spirit until they breathe, .

Is there some point where your "beliefs" do not rely solely on making stuff up??

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Is there some point where your "beliefs" do not rely solely on making stuff up??

You think I made that up? I didn't.

 

[BobRyan]

I know you disregard The Epistle of Barnabas but check this out. Commands not in the NT, 2 of which are not in the whole Bible.

Barnabas 19:5
Thou shalt not doubt whether a thing shall be or not be. Thou shalt
not take the name of the Lord in vain. Thou shalt love thy
neighbor more than thine own soul. .

I have posted a great many times "do not take God's name in vain" -- a statement not in the NT -- but that does not make my post "scripture".

I think we all knew that.

what is more - the fake gospel of Barnabas was not known in the first or second century in a form that even exists today. It is a forgery and its doctrine is Islamic.

"In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God, while Paul is called "the deceived." Furthermore, the Gospel of Barnabas states that Jesus escaped crucifixion by being raised alive to heaven, while Judas Iscariot the traitor was crucified in his place."

The Epistle of Barnabas (author unknown) was written by one of the "grivious wolves" that Paul said would come along "After his departure" and dates at the earliest - from the 2nd century A.D.

Acts 20: 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Gal 1:6-9 "though WE apostles or an Angel from heaven should preach to you a different gospel let him be accursed" contradiction of OT and NT writers -- not allowed.

 

[BobRyan]

You think I made that up? I didn't.

the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists is a public online document -- if you can find the nonsensical "child does not have a soul or spirit until he/she breathes air" in it - then show us... (which of course you cannot ) thus it is not too surprising that it is pretty obvious that you just "made that up".

Is the actual topic of this thread of so little interest to you that making up these little rabbit-trail distractions is to you " of more value"??

 

[BobRyan]

when confronted with creative writing and pure fiction - brakelite responds in this fashion

Like you replied to me before... Some may believe this, but I don't. Nor do I know anyone who does.

Nice.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I have posted a great many times "do not take God's name in vain" -- a statement not in the NT -- but that does not make my post "scripture".

I think we all knew that.

what is more - the fake gospel of Barnabas was not known in the first or second century in a form that even exists today. It is a forgery and its doctrine is Islamic.

"In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God, while Paul is called "the deceived." Furthermore, the Gospel of Barnabas states that Jesus escaped crucifixion by being raised alive to heaven, while Judas Iscariot the traitor was crucified in his place."

The Epistle of Barnabas (author unknown) was written by one of the "grivious wolves" that Paul said would come along "After his departure" and dates at the earliest - from the 2nd century A.D.

Acts 20: 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Gal 1:6-9 "though WE apostles or an Angel from heaven should preach to you a different gospel let him be accursed" contradiction of OT and NT writers -- not allowed.

Yes, the Gospel of Barnabas is Muslim. I never referred to it.

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath never pointed forward to anything. It is a memorial and a sign between God and His faithful that He is the God Who saves and sanctifies them. But, you want badly for it to point to something "future" so that it may be safely obsoleted like truly "future" elements of the Plan of Salvation: Passover, Unleavened Bread, etc.

If the Sabbath was indeed a "shadow", then it would have passed away along with the rest of the shadows - but it will be observed for all eternity. Why do you refuse to do now what God says the redeemed will do for all eternity? Does it get in the way of a job? Family? Friends? Well, how will you stand next to Paul who had his head chopped off for the truth's sake? Or Peter who was crucified upside down for the truth's sake? Or, Daniel, who was cast into a den of lions for the truth's sake? Or the Three Hebrew Worthies cast into a fiery furnace for the truth's sake? Or the 50 - 150 millions who died during the Dark Ages for the truth's sake? And above all, how will you stand next to JESUS...Who laid down His own life rather than break His own law that He wrote with His own finger in stone? The Sabbath is and will always be God's day of rest and communion with Him and His saints. And will be the central point in the unfolding of end time prophecy, so I pray you'll reconsider your position, friend.

Amen

Impossible, as a weekly observance.

Until you read the actual Bible.

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Eternity has no time. That is the point.

Nonsensical. Without time there are no events... without events you cannot love, learn, worship, praise, remember, glorify God etc.

Please be reasonable.

Less fiction, less creative writing... more Bible please.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists is a public online document -- if you can find the nonsensical "child does not have a soul or spirit until he/she breathes air" in it - then show us... (which of course you cannot ) thus it is not too surprising that it is pretty obvious that you just "made that up".

Is the actual topic of this thread of so little interest to you that making up these little rabbit-trail distractions is to you " of more value"??

You forget, I was an Adventist at one time and that was what I was taught. I'm happy they changed their viewpoint.

 

[BobRyan]

Impossible, as a weekly observance. Eternity has no time. That is the point. What the Sabbath represented is eternity itself, and was part of the covenant that was broken, and a new day proclaimed. That was fulfilled in Jesus, and why we keep His day, Sunday, which points to the eighth day, eternity for all those who receive salvation.

You forget, I was an Adventist

The fact that you used to be something -- does not mean you remember a single thing about it accurately -- for all we know you have replaced whatever you factually learned with "creative writing". To "show" that you actually know a fact - quote the fact, the source... show that your writing is an accurate report of some actual fact.

If your next claim is that "they changed" some belief - then show that a prior statement of their Fundamental Beliefs document - makes your wild nonsensical claim. I am pretty sure you can't do that either.

The "benefit" to the group of having someone who claims to be a "former something" is that you should know where to find the source documents rather than just making stuff up. Anyone who was never an SDA could just "make stuff up" that is not the hard part. The hard part is knowing the source documents and "proving it".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The fact that you used to be something -- does not mean you remember a single thing about it accurately -- for all we know you have replaced whatever you factually learned with "creative writing". To "show" that you actually know a fact - quote the fact, the source... show that your writing is an accurate report of some actual fact.

If your next claim is that "they changed" some belief - then show that a prior statement of their Fundamental Beliefs document - makes your wild nonsensical claim. I am pretty sure you can't do that either.

I'm really not interested enough in what you believe now, as opposed to what you believed then.

The belief that abortion was okay was based on "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." They weren't killing a living soul.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm really not interested enough .

It is often the case that those who enjoy "making stuff up" and who then immerse themselves in piling on false accusations - have "no interest" in showing that any false accusation has "substance".

We all knew that -- right?

Notice that even your 'no interest' post - still has some room for "piling on one more false accusation"

The belief that abortion was okay was based on "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." They weren't killing a living soul.

indeed 'like that' sort of false accusation -- no interest at all in finding and SDA doctrinal statement - in one of the actual beliefs of the denomination that you claim to be smearing.

Look for all you wish in the "belief statements" of that denomination and you find no "belief that abortion is ok".

Adventist believe in capital punishment but do not claim that it is ok because "offenders have no soul".

And there is no Adventist belief stating that abortion is ok as long as the baby is not breathing air.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is often the case that those who enjoy "making stuff up" and who then immerse themselves in piling on false accusations - have "no interest" in showing that any false accusation has "substance".

We all knew that -- right?

Notice that even your 'no interest' post - still has some room for "piling on one more false accusation"



indeed 'like that' sort of false accusation -- no interest at all in finding and SDA doctrinal statement - in one of the actual beliefs of the denomination that you claim to be smearing.

Look for all you wish in the "belief statements" of that denomination and you find no "belief that abortion is ok".

Adventist believe in capital punishment but do not claim that it is ok because "offenders have no soul".

And there is no Adventist belief stating that abortion is ok as long as the baby is not breathing air.

I was at camp meeting and heard the pastor talk about this. I can't help what he said. Just because I don't care to investigate what you believe now, doesn't mean you shouldn't. I don't have a horse in this race.

 

[BobRyan]

I was at camp meeting and heard the pastor talk about this. I can't help what he said. .

I don't know who he is and can't help what he said either. So at lease we have that in common.

But I do know what the actual statement of beliefs are for the denomination itself and that those statements are available to the public online. That remains unchanged.

And I do know that they never had a statement of beliefs of the form you posted.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't know who he is and can't help what he said either. So at lease we have that in common.

But I do know what the actual statement of beliefs are for the denomination itself and that those statements are available to the public online. That remains unchanged.

And I do know that they never had a statement of beliefs of the form you posted.

When do you believe the spirit comes into a person - at conception or first breath?

I know what I believe, and I know what the Adventist denomination believes; what do you believe?

 

[quietthinker]

Like you replied to me before... Some may believe this, but I don't. Nor do I know anyone who does.
Your experience with Adventism, judging by what you express here, seems to be to have been coloured somewhat by misunderstanding. Your issues with the Sabbath particularly. And your preference for extra biblical writings to substantiate your beliefs.

has it crossed anyones mind that the Adventist movement is not the same as the Adventist Church?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

has it crossed anyones mind that the Adventist movement is not the same as the Adventist Church?

What is the difference?

 

[BobRyan]

When do you believe the spirit comes into a person - at conception or first breath?

"life" is in each cell from the start - that includes the cells in your finger.. every single one of them has "life" ... that thing that makes the difference between alive.... living and dead. If you lose a finger or eye or hand - we do not issue a death certificate even though all the cells in each case are human and they all have all the DNA needed to make "another you". If you lose your brain.. we do.

This is not a fact about SDAs... it is a fact about humans.

Adventists refer to the "breath of life" as the element that makes the difference between a dead cell and a living cell. It is not tied to imagining that first the cell has to "have a pair of lungs". Biochemical "respiration" takes place if the cell is alive. True of every cell in your finger, toes, eyes, hand etc.

God breathed into Adam (who was merely the dust/clay formed into the shape of a man) "the breath of life" and man became a living soul/being. Every single cell "alive" and functioning organs - including a functioning brain.

Had Adam suffered an accident and lost a finger... no funeral for the finger even though every single cell in it.. fully human. Sounds like you want "another thread topic".

 

[BobRyan]

has it crossed anyones mind that the Adventist movement is not the same as the Adventist Church?

More like - "a single former Seventh-day Adventist" is not the same as the "entire Seventh-day Adventist denomination and statement of beliefs". But yes I do agree that there is the history of Seventh-day Adventists where this or that "person" said any of a number of things and the stated set of beliefs were published as being a list of 20 or 29 or 27 or ... depending on what year one looks for the published set of statements.

But in this case everyone of the published statements is still held by that denomination to be correct because they are not considered to be contradicting/opposing statements. It is not like they were saying "oh wait! back the bus up we took a wrong turn back there... lets go back and take the left fork instead of the right".

Or do you mean "Adventist" as in the Millerites that came along before the Seventh-day Adventist church... sunday-keeping, immortal-soul-believing etc Millerites who were also called "Adventists" by many non-Millerites.

(Starting to sound like a good topic for another thread)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"life" is in each cell from the start - that includes the cells in your finger.. every single one of them has "life" ... that thing that makes the difference between alive.... living and dead. If you lose a finger or eye or hand - we do not issue a death certificate even though all the cells in each case are human and they all have all the DNA needed to make "another you". If you lose your brain.. we do.

This is not a fact about SDAs... it is a fact about humans.

Adventists refer to the "breath of life" as the element that makes the difference between a dead cell and a living cell. It is not tied to imagining that first the cell has to "have a pair of lungs". Biochemical "respiration" takes place if the cell is alive. True of every cell in your finger, toes, eyes, hand etc.

God breathed into Adam (who was merely the dust/clay formed into the shape of a man) "the breath of life" and man became a living soul/being. Every single cell "alive" and functioning organs - including a functioning brain.

Had Adam suffered an accident and lost a finger... no funeral for the finger even though every single cell in it.. fully human. Sounds like you want "another thread topic".

No, I already know what I believe, and it is more than physiology. Besides I am talking about "spirit" not life. Even a worm has life.

 

[BobRyan]

When do you believe the spirit comes into a person - at conception or first breath?

"life" is in each cell from the start - that includes the cells in your finger.. every single one of them has "life" ... that thing that makes the difference between alive.... living and dead. If you lose a finger or eye or hand - we do not issue a death certificate even though all the cells in each case are human and they all have all the DNA needed to make "another you". If you lose your brain.. we do have a funeral and pronounce "the person" as being dead. the bible says the spirit returns to God who gave it and 1 Thess 4 says the person is joining those who are "asleep in Jesus".

This is not a fact about SDAs... it is a fact about humans.

Adventists refer to the "breath of life" as the element that makes the difference between a dead cell and a living cell. It is not tied to imagining that first the cell has to "have a pair of lungs". Biochemical "respiration" takes place if the cell is alive. True of every cell in your finger, toes, eyes, hand etc.

God breathed into Adam (who was merely the dust/clay formed into the shape of a man) "the breath of life" and man became a living soul/being. Every single cell "alive" and functioning organs - including a functioning brain.

Had Adam suffered an accident and lost a finger... no funeral for the finger even though every single cell in it.. fully human. Sounds like you want "another thread topic".

No, I already know what I believe, and it is more than physiology.

Well if you want to "witness" to the idea that you attend funerals for "lost fingers" I leave it to you to make that case.

Besides I am talking about "spirit" not life. Even a worm has life.

Adam is not "alive" before God breaths into him "the breath of LIFE". It is that breath of "life" that makes him alive.

Ps 104
25 There is the sea, great and broad,
In which are swarms without number,
Animals both small and great.
26 There the ships move along,
And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.
27 They all wait for You
To give them their food in due season.
28 You give to them, they gather it up;
You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire
And return to their dust.
30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the ground.

You want to know when the spirit of man enters during gestation? I am pretty sure a brain is needed but I don't know exactly when during the pregnancy that happens. Certainly very early. And I am fairly certain that zygotes don't have such organs.

This sounds like you needing to start a thread topic on some new thread.