Jesus and Commands

[Heb 13:8]

yup, sure is weird Heb, beyond weird even, i agree

i gues sinful man isn't love

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, it points backwards, but forward as well. That is why it is mentioned in Hebrews 4.

The Sabbath never pointed forward to anything. It is a memorial and a sign between God and His faithful that He is the God Who saves and sanctifies them. But, you want badly for it to point to something "future" so that it may be safely obsoleted like truly "future" elements of the Plan of Salvation: Passover, Unleavened Bread, etc.

If the Sabbath was indeed a "shadow", then it would have passed away along with the rest of the shadows - but it will be observed for all eternity. Why do you refuse to do now what God says the redeemed will do for all eternity? Does it get in the way of a job? Family? Friends? Well, how will you stand next to Paul who had his head chopped off for the truth's sake? Or Peter who was crucified upside down for the truth's sake? Or, Daniel, who was cast into a den of lions for the truth's sake? Or the Three Hebrew Worthies cast into a fiery furnace for the truth's sake? Or the 50 - 150 millions who died during the Dark Ages for the truth's sake? And above all, how will you stand next to JESUS...Who laid down His own life rather than break His own law that He wrote with His own finger in stone? The Sabbath is and will always be God's day of rest and communion with Him and His saints. And will be the central point in the unfolding of end time prophecy, so I pray you'll reconsider your position, friend.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why do you refuse to do now what God says the redeemed will do for all eternity?

Impossible, as a weekly observance. Eternity has no time. That is the point. What the Sabbath represented is eternity itself, and was part of the covenant that was broken, and a new day proclaimed. That was fulfilled in Jesus, and why we keep His day, Sunday, which points to the eighth day, eternity for all those who receive salvation.

 

[Phoneman777]

You started off fine in finally understanding, then dropped it again to fall from grace.

Letter of the law - literal rest
Spirit of the law - spiritual rest

Why is it that when people go to preachers and say, "Preacher, I've decided to follow Jesus and I'm no longer going to live in sin with my partner!"
...and the preacher will say, "Hallelujah, praise God!"

"I've decided to follow Jesus and give up drinking, smoking, and drugs!"
"Hallelujah, praise God!"

"Decided to follow Jesus and stop robbing banks, lying, cursing, etc!"
"Hallelujah, praise God!"

"And I've decided I want to demonstrate my rest in Jesus by resting on the Sabbath, like it says in Hebrews 4!"
"You've fallen from grace!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"And I've decided I want to demonstrate my rest in Jesus by resting on the Sabbath, like it says in Hebrews 4!"
"You've fallen from grace!!!!!!!!!!!"

But that's NOT what Hebrew 4 is talking about!!! You are seeing it through tunnel vision and what you want to see. But if you would clear our all that denominational garbage you could see what the Author meant.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

talk to you later

 

[Phoneman777]

Impossible, as a weekly observance. Eternity has no time. That is the point. What the Sabbath represented is eternity itself, and was part of the covenant that was broken, and a new day proclaimed. That was fulfilled in Jesus, and why we keep His day, Sunday, which points to the eighth day, eternity for all those who receive salvation.

If weekly Sabbath observance is impossible because "eternity has no time", then why does God say He's marking month to month and Sabbath to Sabbath? Sounds like it's more than possible - like what will be a perpetual institution.

 

[Phoneman777]

But that's NOT what Hebrew 4 is talking about!!! You are seeing it through tunnel vision and what you want to see. But if you would clear our all that denominational garbage you could see what the Author meant.

That's EXACTLY what Hebrews 4 says. Even Lamsa's Pishitta version says so.

Any interpretation of Hebrews 4:9-10 that leaves out a connecting link between the Christian and the concept of rest from the Christian's work "as God did from His" is a distortion of the text.

My link is simple: A Christian who inwardly rests in Jesus will demonstrate that he does so by literal rest outwardly from his work, toil, labor, etc. "as "God did from His" - on the seventh day Sabbath.

Just how exactly did God rest?
Did He rest from "works of sin"? No, He never sinned.
Did He rest "spiritually in Jesus"? No, only those in need of salvation can enter into that rest.
Did He rest literally from work, toil, labor, etc.? Yes, on the seventh day.
Therefore, what is the only manner of rest from his labor "as God did from His" that the Christian can enter? Literal rest from his own works on the seventh day Sabbath - every seventh day.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why do you ask if God's rest is the seventh day Sabbath? It is clear that the "rest" He asks us to enter is "spiritual rest". The weekly Sabbath is "literal rest", which is the outward evidence of the inward rest - like baptism is the outward expression of the inward conversion from death to life. You don't suggest baptism is no longer binding to Christians, so why claim resting from work "as God did from His" is not binding to the Christian?

I'm going back to this post where you got it right, then jumped back into the letter of the law. The letter of the law kills.

Letter of the law - literal rest
Spirit of the law - spiritual rest

Our spiritual rest that is referred to in Hebrews 4 is entering into God's rest. It is not one day a week like the letter of the law suggests to teach us there is a rest in God. The Hebrews had the Sabbath, so that wasn't what is meant in Hebrews 4.

When I was growing up in the Adventist church, Hebrews 4 was never taught as going back under the law, and not as a teaching to show we are to keep a day of the week. What happened to spiritual interpretation since I left in 1970?

I just want to say, I enjoy talking to you more than other Adventists who for years and years cut and paste the same verses. And when asked a question they can't answer, they cut and paste anything and everything from their small arsenal of verses. Never learning anything new, just staying stagnant. You at least know it is a spiritual rest, even though you can't get out from under the law...yet. ;) (If I can, you can)

 

[brakelite]

You at least know it is a spiritual rest, even though you can't get out from under the law...

Can a Christian be~~"saved by grace"~~"not under the law"~~and at the same time be in wilful rebellion against that law? For example, can a Christian live in adultery and at the same time be saved by grace? Of course you would say, because the letter of the law no longer applies. So long as he is following the spirit of the law, he is fine. So tell us, how can anyone obey the spirit of the 7 th commandment and not the letter? It is impossible to keep the spirit of any law without keeping the letter. When Jesus said lusting after your neighbour was adultery, He wasn't saying the actual act of adultery was allowable. He was deepening the commandments, not replacing them. So yes, we indeed rest in Christ, but that in no way replaces the actual physical rest that commandment requires. Hebrews 4 was pointing out that despite keeping the weekly Sabbath , Israel failed to enter the spiritual rest they needed. For those who do enter the spiritual rest, there still remains a physical rest for the people of God...a physical rest from work as God rested from His works.
The very same as the one who refrains from lusting after his neighbours wife, thus keeping the"spirit of the law", must also refrain from the physical relationship also, the "letter of the law".
Thus the spirit of the law does not override, replace, countenance or countermand the commandments.
Keeping the letter of the law without the spirit, is meaningless. Keeping the spirit of the law without the letter is impossible.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm going back to this post where you got it right, then jumped back into the letter of the law. The letter of the law kills.

Letter of the law - literal rest
Spirit of the law - spiritual rest

Our spiritual rest that is referred to in Hebrews 4 is entering into God's rest. It is not one day a week like the letter of the law suggests to teach us there is a rest in God. The Hebrews had the Sabbath, so that wasn't what is meant in Hebrews 4.

When I was growing up in the Adventist church, Hebrews 4 was never taught as going back under the law, and not as a teaching to show we are to keep a day of the week. What happened to spiritual interpretation since I left in 1970?

I just want to say, I enjoy talking to you more than other Adventists who for years and years cut and paste the same verses. And when asked a question they can't answer, they cut and paste anything and everything from their small arsenal of verses. Never learning anything new, just staying stagnant. You at least know it is a spiritual rest, even though you can't get out from under the law...yet. ;) (If I can, you can)

Violating the Letter of the Law while giving lip service to the Spirit of the Law is the practice of hypocrisy.

 

[Episkopos]

Can a Christian be~~"saved by grace"~~"not under the law"~~and at the same time be in wilful rebellion against that law? For example, can a Christian live in adultery and at the same time be saved by grace? Of course you would say, because the letter of the law no longer applies. So long as he is following the spirit of the law, he is fine. So tell us, how can anyone obey the spirit of the 7 th commandment and not the letter? It is impossible to keep the spirit of any law without keeping the letter. When Jesus said lusting after your neighbour was adultery, He wasn't saying the actual act of adultery was allowable. He was deepening the commandments, not replacing them. So yes, we indeed rest in Christ, but that in no way replaces the actual physical rest that commandment requires. Hebrews 4 was pointing out that despite keeping the weekly Sabbath , Israel failed to enter the spiritual rest they needed. For those who do enter the spiritual rest, there still remains a physical rest for the people of God...a physical rest from work as God rested from His works.
The very same as the one who refrains from lusting after his neighbours wife, thus keeping the"spirit of the law", must also refrain from the physical relationship also, the "letter of the law".
Thus the spirit of the law does not override, replace, countenance or countermand the commandments.
Keeping the letter of the law without the spirit, is meaningless. Keeping the spirit of the law without the letter is impossible.

Not when the letter of the law gets in the way of the spirit of the law.

Which is greater...the shadow...or the real thing? The misunderstanding or the reality?

For instance.....Jesus healing on the sabbath and saying...take up your mat.

When the religious men saw this....they rebuked the healed man. They hated Jesus for it.

Now, the law that the Pharisees were thinking to defend talks about bearing a burden (masa) on the sabbath.

Jer. 17:21‘Thus says the LORD, “Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any burden on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem. 22“You shall not bring a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day nor do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers. 23“Yet they did not listen or incline their ears, but stiffened their necks in order not to listen or take correction.


The Hebrew word masa משא (for load or burden) is not a physical burden....but means to be weighed down in thought.

The sabbath is a rest from more than just physical work...it is regarding thoughts and words...

As in....The burden of the Lord.. (Now God doesn't go around carrying things)

So then carrying something on the Sabbath is not the point of the law.

But if a person takes the physical idea too far...we lose the spiritual significance.

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm going back to this post where you got it right, then jumped back into the letter of the law. The letter of the law kills.

Letter of the law - literal rest
Spirit of the law - spiritual rest

Our spiritual rest that is referred to in Hebrews 4 is entering into God's rest. It is not one day a week like the letter of the law suggests to teach us there is a rest in God. The Hebrews had the Sabbath, so that wasn't what is meant in Hebrews 4.

When I was growing up in the Adventist church, Hebrews 4 was never taught as going back under the law, and not as a teaching to show we are to keep a day of the week. What happened to spiritual interpretation since I left in 1970?

I just want to say, I enjoy talking to you more than other Adventists who for years and years cut and paste the same verses. And when asked a question they can't answer, they cut and paste anything and everything from their small arsenal of verses. Never learning anything new, just staying stagnant. You at least know it is a spiritual rest, even though you can't get out from under the law...yet. ;) (If I can, you can)

The only way anyone of us is "out from under the law" is if we are walking in obedience to both the letter and spirit of the Ten Commandments - which not a one of us can do except that Jesus live out His life through us and obey it for us. That's why the Ten Commandments are so offensive to people - it exposes who really sits enthroned on their hearts.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

For example, can a Christian live in adultery and at the same time be saved by grace? Of course you would say, because the letter of the law no longer applies. So long as he is following the spirit of the law, he is fine.

Some believe that, I don't.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus is asked "which commandments?" -- and the lists some of them in Matthew 19... almost all of which came from the TEN relating to "Love your neighbor as yourself". But He did not include the ones related to "Love God with all your heart" in Matt 19 so then nothing about "do not take God's name in vain". Paul also quotes from the TEN Commandments in Romans 13 dealing with "Love your neighbor as yourself".

And as James 2 points out "Do not murder" is one of them
As Eph 6:2 points out - the fifth commandment is the "first" commandment in that still valid unit of TEN - with a promise.

I know you disregard The Epistle of Barnabas but check this out. Commands not in the NT, 2 of which are not in the whole Bible.

Barnabas 19:5
Thou shalt not doubt whether a thing shall be or not be. Thou shalt
not take the name of the Lord in vain. Thou shalt love thy
neighbor more than thine own soul. Thou shalt not murder a child by
abortion, nor again shalt thou kill it when it is born. Thou shalt
not withhold thy hand from thy son or daughter, but from their youth
thou shalt teach them the fear of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

they're both in There already 1stC

 

[1stCenturyLady]

they're both in There already 1stC

I've never seen a scripture against abortion, besides this one. If you have quote it.

 

[brakelite]

I've never seen a scripture against abortion, besides this one. If you have quote it.

There's no scripture against stealing chewing gum either, but there is the 8 th commandment right? So there is no scripture against abortion, but there is the 6 th commandment.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There's no scripture against stealing chewing gum either, but there is the 8 th commandment right? So there is no scripture against abortion, but there is the 6 th commandment.

Adventists do not believe a child has a spirit until they breathe, therefore, abortion is okay with them. That is a major error I find in them.

 

[brakelite]

Adventists do not believe a child has a spirit until they breathe, therefore, abortion is okay with them. That is a major error I find in them.

Like you replied to me before... Some may believe this, but I don't. Nor do I know anyone who does.
Your experience with Adventism, judging by what you express here, seems to be to have been coloured somewhat by misunderstanding. Your issues with the Sabbath particularly. And your preference for extra biblical writings to substantiate your beliefs.