Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him

[Lambano]

What's the matter @Lambano -you a Universalist?
J.

Since God is sovereign, I leave it open as a possibility, but with low probability.

 

[amigo de christo]

Since God is sovereign, I leave it open as a possibility, but with low probability.

Since God is sovereign, I leave it open as a possibility, but with low probability.

Well then , lets ask ourselves a much needed question .
Did JESUS ever go around preaching universalism
OR did he preach the DIRE NEED to BELIEVE ON HIM .
And what did HE tell those who had heard the gospel and had not yet repented .
And what Did HE tell his desicples to do if one recieved it not .
And in acts what did paul and others do and say to those who rejected JESUS .
Exactly .
What does the book of revelation say about those who believe not .
Exactly .
JESUS made it very clear about those who believed verses those who did not .
My advice is we need to do the same .
Also many forget something . What does it say in the book of revelation .
It says that anyone who adds to or takes from that book ................
and i never read anything that said Oh they were sent to the lake of fire
but later get out . NEVER READ that part in that book . OR it never said OH they wont GO to that place .
Never read that part either . I suggest we get replanted and very familiar with THAT BIBLE .

 

[Johann]

Well then , lets ask ourselves a much needed question .
Did JESUS ever go around preaching universalism
OR did he preach the DIRE NEED to BELIEVE ON HIM .
And what did HE tell those who had heard the gospel and had not yet repented .
And what Did HE tell his desicples to do if one recieved it not .
And in acts what did paul and others do and say to those who rejected JESUS .
Exactly .
What does the book of revelation say about those who believe not .
Exactly .
JESUS made it very clear about those who believed verses those who did not .
My advice is we need to do the same .
Also many forget something . What does it say in the book of revelation .
It says that anyone who adds to or takes from that book ................
and i never read anything that said Oh they were sent to the lake of fire
but later get out . NEVER READ that part in that book . OR it never said OH they wont GO to that place .
Never read that part either . I suggest we get replanted and very familiar with THAT BIBLE .

Hi brother-1:12 PM here.
Noticed the title of the OP?
"Several ways to God?"
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi brother-1:12 PM here.
Noticed the title of the OP?
"Several ways to God?"
J.

Its all part of the delusion that is fast growing to captivate the world as one right under the liar and the lie
which condemns and does not save .

 

[Johann]

Its all part of the delusion that is fast growing to captivate the world as one right under the liar and the lie
which condemns and does not save .

-all the more the need to dokimazo the spirits-

GREEK TERMS FOR TESTING AND THEIR CONNOTATIONS

There are two Greek terms which have the connotation of testing someone for a purpose.

1. Dokimazō, Dokimion, Dokimasia

This term is a metalurgist term for testing the genuineness of something (i.e., metaphorically someone) by fire The fire reveals the true metal and burns off (i.e., purifies) the dross. This physical process became a powerful idiom for God and/or Satan and/or humans testing others. This term is only used in a positive sense of testing with a view towards acceptance

It is used in the NT of testing

a. oxen – Luke 14:19

b. ourselves – 1 Cor. 11:28

c. our faith – James. 1:3

d. even God – Heb. 3:9

The outcomes of these tests were assumed to be positive (cf. Rom. 2:18; 14:22; 16:10; 2 Cor. 10:18; 13:3,7; Phil. 2:27; 1 Pet. 1:7), therefore, the term conveys the idea of someone examined and approved

a. to be worthwhile

b. to be good

c. to be genuine

d. to be valuable

e. to be honored
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Peirazō, Peirasmus

This term often has the connotation of examination for the purpose of fault finding or rejection. It is used in connection to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.

a. It conveys the attempt to trap Jesus (cf. Matt. 4:1; 16:1; 19:3; 22:18, 35; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; Heb. 2:18).

b. This term (peirazōn) is used as a title for Satan in Matt. 4:3; 1 Thess. 3:5 (i.e., "the tempter").

c. Usage

(1) It was used by Jesus warning humans not to test God (cf. Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12, [or Christ cf. 1 Cor 10:9]).

(2) It also denotes the attempt to do something that has failed (cf. Heb.11:29).

(3) It is used in connection with the temptation and trials of believers (cf. 1 Cor. 7:5; 10:9, 13; Gal. 6:1; 1 Thess. 3:5; Heb. 2:18; James. 1:2, 13, 14; 1 Pet. 4:12; 2 Pet 2:9).

Just something I want to share.
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hi brother-1:12 PM here.
Noticed the title of the OP?
"Several ways to God?"
J.

This is the work of the dark unifyer who is drawing in the religions and tribes of the earth to gather as one
under the lie that saves not and will gather them as one against GOD , HIS CHRIST and the lambs .
The day of aremegedon does approach . A delusion to unify the peoples of earth to gather as one
under the umbrella of a lie does grow . We , by faith in JESUS by the grace of GOD , shall resist the lie
and continue to point to CHRIST JESUS to the last breath my friend .

 

[Johann]

This is the work of the dark unifyer who is drawing in the religions and tribes of the earth to gather as one
under the lie that saves not and will gather them as one against GOD , HIS CHRIST and the lambs .
The day of aremegedon does approach . A delusion to unify the peoples of earth to gather as one
under the umbrella of a lie does grow . We , by faith in JESUS by the grace of GOD , shall resist the lie
and continue to point to CHRIST JESUS to the last breath my friend .

You betcha!
J.

 

[Lambano]

Since God is sovereign, I leave it open as a possibility, but with low probability.

I put in the "God is sovereign" clause as a reminder that anytime I'm tempted to tell God whom He can and cannot save, He reminds me that He can save whoever the hell He wants to save, and He is under no obligation whatsoever to save ME.

And this is not of yourselves; it is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:9)

Sometimes a little humility can be a good thing.

 

[rwb]

Sure, ultimately it probably doesn't matter.
But have we been doing it wrong all this time?
And why was Jesus specific command instructions ignored in the first century?
Was this inserted later?

We don't know that it was. We know only that it is not mentioned.

 

[St. SteVen]

IT'S ALL ABOUT TEARING DOWN AND ANNULLING THE VERY WORD OF GOD !

Since when did one person's misinterpretation of the Bible become "THE VERY WORD OF GOD"?

God has given the formula by his Son and ONLY by Jesus, as the way any man can be reconciled to the Father, THRU HIS SON, JESUS !

This topic is addressing WAYS to come to Jesus. Everyone will be reconciled through Christ.

UR, baptism for salvation, baptism of the Holy Ghost by repeating a gibberish montage ect., all these and more are CORRUPTED countermeasures by which satan deceives and is trying to deceive man !

Do you really believe that anyone is saved by your personal doctrinal positions?

All that take part in the lie, will have their part with satan in the lake of fire. Probably don't believe that is truth either !

You need to figure out who the enemy REALLY is.

 

[Johann]

I put in the "God is sovereign" clause as a reminder that anytime I'm tempted to tell God whom He can and cannot save, He reminds me that He can save whoever the hell He wants to save, and He is under no obligation whatsoever to save ME.

Sometimes a little humility can be a good thing.

Correct-God doesn't need us, but don't go soft on erroneous doctrines brother and the pun on humility is noted-not one inch of pride here since I am a sinner, saved by grace such as yourself.
As of late there are many doctrines that is "just not right" and that might include me-but to compromise on what stands written?

Humility is good and excellent-but not wrong doctrines, yes?
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Is being "especially saved" even better than just plain being saved?

I would say, "Yes".
A relationship with God has benefits in this life, not only in the afterlife.
This is a good reminder. IMHO
Many seem to have missed this important fact.

 

[Lambano]

Humility is good and excellent-but not wrong doctrines, yes?

Correct doctrine is good and excellent also - but what's more important to God?

Think about it.

 

[rwb]

You should have highlighted-

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

specially. Occurs in the N.T. twelve times. Rendered "specially", "especially "(nine); "most of all" (Act_20:36); "chiefly" (Php_1:4, Php_1:22. 2Pe_2:10).

those that believe = the believing.
The statement is more unreservedly universalist in tone than chap. 1Ti_2:4 and Tit_2:11; and perhaps must be qualified by saying that while God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the πιστοί.

It is an argument a minori ad majus (as Bengel says); and the unqualified assertion is suitable. If all men can be saved, surely the πιστοί are saved, in whose number we are included.

It is better to qualify the statement thus than, with Chrys. and Bengel, to give to σωτήρ a material sense of God’s relation to all men, as the God of nature; but a spiritual sense of His relation to them that believe, as the God of grace. ch. 1Ti_1:1; 1Ti_2:4.

"who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers" The title "savior" is used quite often in the Pastoral Letters (cf. 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:3-4; 2:10-13; 3:4,6). In earlier chapters of 1 Timothy it is used of God as the Redeemer, potentially, of all mankind (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4,6; Luke 2:11; John 1:29; 4:42; Rom. 5:18-19; 2 Pet. 3:9). See full note at 2 Tim. 1:10. Possibly because of the little phrase "especially of believers" (where one would theologically expect "only") it may be used in its OT sense of Elohim, who is "protector" or "provider" of all life on earth (cf. Matt. 5:45; Acts 17:28).


Saviour of all men (sōtēr pantōn anthrōpōn). See note on 1Ti_1:1 for sōtēr applied to God as here. Not that all men “are saved” in the full sense, but God gives life (1Ti_6:13) to all (Act_17:28).

Specially of them that believe (malista pistōn). Making a distinction in the kinds of salvation meant. “While God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the pistoi” (White). So Jesus is termed “Saviour of the World” (Joh_4:42). Cf. Gal_6:10.
RWS

You have taken one verse and promulgate "several ways" to God-when there is only ONE Dereck/Hodos

will: Isa_45:22, Isa_49:6, Isa_55:1; Eze_18:23, Eze_18:32, Eze_33:11; Luk_14:23; Joh_3:15-17; Joh_6:37; Rom_3:29-30; 2Co_5:17-19; 1Th_2:15-16; Tit_2:11; 2Pe_3:9
and: Mat_28:19; Mar_16:15; Luk_24:47; Rom_10:12-15; Rev_14:6
the knowledge: Isa_53:11; Hab_2:14; Luk_1:77; Joh_14:6, Joh_17:17; 2Ti_2:25, 2Ti_3:7; Heb_10:26


Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


I am the Bread of Life (John 6:35)
I am the Light of the World (John 8:12)
I am the Door (John 10:9)
I am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
I am the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25)
I am the Way and the Truth and the Life (John 14:6)
I am the Vine (John 15:1,5)

You really should change the title of your OP-there are NOT several ways to God or Jesus.
J.

I generally agree. But when I read the word 'all' attached to salvation it seems as though throughout 'all' should simply be understood as not only Jews but all people or Gentiles also can be saved. So I understand the verse as Christ being the Savior of Jews and Gentiles, especially of them (Jew & Gentile) that believe. For that reason we labor and suffer reproach, trusting in the living God for He alone is Saviour of ALL, specially or specifically/chiefly/particularly them that believe. IOW the focus is on the "living God", as opposed to false gods or idols, whose mercies are upon ALL (the rain falls on both just & unjust alike) mankind, and He only is Savior of them that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

A good example of this is found from John 3.

John 3:16-18 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God so loved the world! The whole world, meaning ALL humanity? No! But whosoever believeth in Him has everlasting life. The one in all the world that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the Lord. This passage isn't in the least bit ambiguous and should be interpreted for exactly what it says. If we then try to force fit the verse in 1Tim to fit universalism we force contradiction into the Word of God. The Bible student reading without preconceived opinion clearly understands the Bible NEVER even hints that ALL without exception shall be saved. But it appears to be an exercise in futility trying to change one's mind about being correct rather than having Biblical truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

The lesson-learned from 2 Samuel may be that if Exile to Purgatory doesn't change a man, the only alternative is death. Hades would be my choice for Purgatory; see the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The Lake of Fire is the final death.

That's an interesting take on the final judgment.
Draws from elements of all three views potentially.
An age of restoration, for those who will submit to it, and a final judgment for refusal.

I think where it may fall apart is that --- IMHO -- no one in their right mind would
choose to shun God's love and grace after meeting him face-to-face.

 

[Johann]

This topic is addressing WAYS to come to Jesus. Everyone will be reconciled through Christ.

Incorrect.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I am HaDerech, HaEmes, and HaChayyim. No one comes to HaAv except through me [1Sm 3:7].

Λέγει αὐτῷ ‹ὁ› Ἰησοῦς “Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή· οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα εἰ μὴ δι’ ἐμοῦ.

Three Definite Articles in one verse-not WAY'S--

ὁδὸς
Transliteration: hodos
Morphology: N-NFS
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's no.: G3598 (ὁδός, ὁδοποιέω)
Meaning: A way, road, journey, path.
2) "I am the way, the truth, and the life:” (ego eimi he hodos kai he aletheia kai he zoe)

"I am (exist as) the way, and the truth, and the life;" Joh_1:4-5, He is the way, the restricted way, Act_4:12; Act_10:43. He is the truth, who sets men free or liberates them from the slave chains of sin, Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36. He is the Life, without which men are dead in trespasses and in sin, Eph_2:1-2; Joh_8:12; Joh_10:27-28.

3) "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (oudes erchetai pros tou patera ei me de' emou) "No one comes of his own choice to the Father, except through me," as drawn by the Father, by the Spirit, who has been sent from the Father, to reprove and convict, Pro_1:20-32; Joh_16:7-11; Rev_22:17.

Jesus is the way of access to God by the atonement, Isa_25:8-9; Joh_10:9; Heb_10:19-20. And He is the fountain of all truth, so that both He and His word are true, genuine, real from the beginning, Psa_119:160; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36; Joh_17:17. And He is the life to which the way leads, and the life points to Him, Joh_1:17; Joh_10:27-28.

The Two Ways in Mat_7:13-14. Jesus uses the image of the two ways in Mat_7:13-14 (cf. Luk_13:24). The first thought is that of entering by the narrow gate, but this seems to be a parallel metaphor—the gate does not lead on to the way. Thus the way is narrow (or broad) as well as the gate, in contrast to other descriptions of the right way.

There are no exact parallels to Jesus' presentation, although gate and way are sometimes brought together, e.g., the little gate that leads on to a difficult way, or the narrow path or entrance. It is unlikely that Mat_7:13 is directly related to 7:12 (the golden rule), nor is the door to be seen as entry into God's kingdom (as in Luk_13:24).

Again, the narrow way is not just that of piety in contrast to the broad way of vice and frivolity, although such an understanding might fit in with the call of Jesus for conversion. Furthermore, the saying is not primarily polemical, i.e., directed against the Pharisaical view of the law. What we have is a summons to discipleship.

Jesus' demands are severe.

Hence the gate is narrow and the way is hard. But there is no other way to life. If there are few on this way, it is not because it is too small, but because people like an easier path.

The few of v. 14 are disciples; the many of v. 13 are those who refuse discipleship. "Way" does not denote the way of life of disciples but what Jesus expects of them. Like "gate," "way" has the connotation of entry. The destination, then, is mentioned, either life or destruction.

"Finding" in v. 14 does not imply choice among many ways, or trying to find a path in difficult terrain, or coming across a narrow entry after a lengthy search.

It involves the mystery of the divine action whereby those who seek will find. Although Mat_7:13-14 does not explicitly say so, the way is found in Christ himself; it is he who makes possible our entry on it.

Your erroneous assertion is debunked by Scriptures.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

I generally agree. But when I read the word 'all' attached to salvation it seems as though throughout 'all' should simply be understood as not only Jews but all people or Gentiles also can be saved. So I understand the verse as Christ being the Savior of Jews and Gentiles, especially of them (Jew & Gentile) that believe. For that reason we labor and suffer reproach, trusting in the living God for He alone is Saviour of ALL, specially or specifically/chiefly/particularly them that believe. IOW the focus is on the "living God", as opposed to false gods or idols, whose mercies are upon ALL (the rain falls on both just & unjust alike) mankind, and He only is Savior of them that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

A good example of this is found from John 3.

John 3:16-18 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God so loved the world! The whole world, meaning ALL humanity? No! But whosoever believeth in Him has everlasting life. The one in all the world that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the Lord. This passage isn't in the least bit ambiguous and should be interpreted for exactly what it says. If we then try to force fit the verse in 1Tim to fit universalism we force contradiction into the Word of God. The Bible student reading without preconceived opinion clearly understands the Bible NEVER even hints that ALL without exception shall be saved. But it appears to be an exercise in futility trying to change one's mind about being correct rather than having Biblical truth.

Love this brother and your input is welcomed.
Johann.

 

[Lambano]

I think where it may fall apart is that --- IMHO -- no one in their right mind would
choose to shun God's love and grace after meeting him face-to-face.

You have a much higher view of humanity than I do. I can easily see time spent in the flames building up hatred and resentment towards God.

 

[St. SteVen]

We don't know that it was. We know only that it is not mentioned.

Right, we don't know.
I balked at the idea initially too.
But I can only find reference to baptisms in Jesus' name in the NT record.
Especially the Acts of the Apostles. And Paul made no mention of the Trinity in baptism.

This would have been a good opportunity to mention it. Not there.

Romans 6:3 NIV
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

 

[St. SteVen]

You have a much higher view of humanity than I do. I can easily see time spent in the flames building up hatred and resentment towards God.

Perhaps I do.

Have you ever been inside a foundry building? It's where they pour molten metal into molds.
As I'm sure you already know.

It's a hot and uncomfortable place to be.
If the choice was between being released from that place, or going into the furnace...
Who would choose the furnace?