Jesus is either God or is not God: There is no 'In Between'

[ChristisGod]

If the verse in Titus or 2 Peter said "our great friend Paul and Matthew" would you think it was speaking about the same person? I think not. It seems you see what you want to here and not what is meant. It could be two different people or the same one I guess if that's what you believe going in. I don't see how anyone looking at scripture could believe that Jesus, God and HS are one person unless they were like atheists who came up with an idea and then tried to find a reason for it.

Jesus in John 17:3 said that his Father was the only true God. Col. 1:15 it says Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. If something is the image of something it can not be the thing it is the image of and firstborn of all creation means he was created. Mat. 24:36, 37 says “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." If Jesus was God he would have known I guess. There are many other scriptures that show Jesus wan not God.

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if he wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Ed McKee]

So in John 1:1 you see Almighty God (one person, the God and Father of Jesus) and a god (Jesus).

I was asking if you see Jesus in this passage as a man or an angel (the two options you presented for someone who is “a god”.)



You see two persons in John 1:1. I see only one person in John 1:1.

Well, John was talking about Jesus, but Jesus was not flesh and blood before he came to earth so the answer is a little convoluted. But what I'm talking about is the only begotten son of God and the first born of all creation. So Jesus was created which alone proves he could not be God spoken of in John 1:1, as does John 17:3 where Jesus said his Father was the only true God.

Ok, it seems we see 1:1 differently. Why do you see only one person? Do you believe Jesus is God? John used the definite article in both instances when referring to God but left it out when referring to Jesus. Now why do you think he did that?

 

[Ed McKee]

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if he wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

I also wish it helped, sorry it doesn't help me, but rather sounds a little confusing.

1:11 has nothing to do with 1:1 that I can see. But I do know that Jesus never said he was God, nor does the Bible ever call him God the son but only the son of God. in he fact denied it, in essence, when he said his Father was the only true God in John 17:3, also John 14:28, Mark 13:32, 1 Cor. 25:27,28, John 20:28. I could list many others but you get the point.

Show me one verse that says Jesus is the only true God or that Jesus knows everything God knows. In fact in John 5:30 Jesus said that he could do nothing on his own. In John 12:49 he said that his Father gave him the command of what to say and what to speak.

 

[Matthias]

Well, John was talking about Jesus…

I don’t think John was talking about Jesus in John 1:1. That is a difference in the way you and I see the verse.

…but Jesus was not flesh and blood before he came to earth so the answer is a little convoluted.

So back to our two options: a god is either a man or an angel. Do you believe that “before he came to earth” he was an angel or do you believe that “before he came to earth” he was a man?

How satisfied are you with an answer which you characterize as “a little convoluted”?

But what I'm talking about is the only begotten son of God and the first born of all creation. So Jesus was created which alone proves he could not be God spoken of in John 1:1, as does John 17:3 where Jesus said his Father was the only true God.

I agree with your point about Jesus being created. I also agree that he is not the God whom John is talking about in John 1:1. John’s God and Jesus’ God is the one God, the Father.

Ok, it seems we see 1:1 differently. Why do you see only one person?

I believe John is speaking about God alone in John 1:1. We both believe God is only one person.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Only in a secondary sense.

John used the definite article in both instances when referring to God but left it out when referring to Jesus. Now why do you think he did that?

Are you familiar with Tyndale’s Translation? You won’t agree with it, but I do.

Have a look at it and then tell me how many persons you see in his translation.

“In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God. All things were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.”

(John 1:1-5)

 

[Ed McKee]

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board. Thanks for your input.
Yes, some believe in only "one" person, But Biblically, as Per 1 John 5:7
"There Are Three, Who Are All In ONE GodHead!":

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God!

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

GRACE And Peace...

This "In heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" in 1 John 5:7 is a spurious scripture. It was not in the original manuscripts and was added in the 1500's which means it is false.

Jesus did say that he and the Father were one in John 10:30 but then explained what was meant later in John 17:20, 21 when he said “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us". So it would seem from the words of Jesus that did not mean that he was God.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

This "In heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" in 1 John 5:7 is a spurious scripture.

This spurious (in man's mind) Holy Scripture, Is Perfectly
Harmonious With These Holy And Preserved Passages!:

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Ed McKee]

I don’t think John was talking about Jesus in John 1:1. That is a difference in the way you and I see the verse.



So back to our two options: a god is either a man or an angel. Do you believe that “before he came to earth” he was an angel or do you believe that “before he came to earth” he was a man?

How satisfied are you with an answer which you characterize as “a little convoluted”?



I agree with your point about Jesus being created. I also agree that he is not the God whom John is talking about in John 1:1. John’s God and Jesus’ God is the one God, the Father.



I believe John is speaking about God alone in John 1:1. We both believe God is only one person.



Only in a secondary sense.



Are you familiar with Tyndale’s Translation? You won’t agree with it, but I do.

Have a look at it and then tell me how many persons you see in his translation.

“In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God. All things were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.”

(John 1:1-5)

I think you're the first person I've run across that doesn't thing John was not talking about Jesus in 1:1. How did you come up with that idea? On your own or in some organized religion? I find it unusual that Tyndale's doesn't capitalize god at all.

I think he was talking about God and Jesus for the reason I gave you. At least I think I mentioned it to you about the use of definite and indefinite article.

Jesus obviously not human in "the beginning" so I'l go with angel. I think Paul says as much in Gal. 4:14 and again in 1 Thes. 4:16 Jesus is said to have the voice of the archangel. I'm sure there are other verses but I'm a little rusty and don't want to write a book.

 

[Ed McKee]

This spurious (in man's mind) Holy Scripture, Is Perfectly Harmonious
With These Holy And Preserved Passages!:

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God!

GRACE And Peace...

It's not in man's mind, it's just a fact. If it was added almost 1500 years after the original manuscript it doesn't belong there. There were times when men tried to change scripture and did. That's why the Bible warns against it in Rev. 20:18,19.

 

[robert derrick]

If Jesus is God, why did he say he isn't?
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered, “No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)

If we're going to call Jesus Christ good, then we must also acknowledge Him as God.

If you say, He as saying He was not God, then you say He was saying He was not good.

"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
“Father, the hour has come...I am coming to you now" (John 17:13)
"I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)

The Word became the Son as a man to glorify God and show man as a man how to worship God and do His righteousness without sinning in Spirit and in truth.

And Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?
God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)

Carnal minded arguments of them ignorant of the Father and the Son is not a doctrine of the Spirit of Christ.

In marriage they are one flesh, and yet not the same flesh, so are the Son and the Father, and so are the Father and the Son and His flesh and bone body on earth.

This is the mystery the Godhead and Christ and His church, that the world does not have nor know.

It is not by coincidence that no one rejecting Jesus as Lord and God, can confess knowing Him nor God.

 

[robert derrick]

The early Christians got it right about God and Jesus being two separate identities-

Distinct Persons in the Godhead, not separate.

Even the normal sinner knows the difference, but them that reject the Son as God, also reject normal sense.

The only time the Word was ever separated from God was as a man, when the Son gave up His soul and laid down His life for our sins, and the Father turned His purer eyes from His own dear Son.

Which idolators of a created christ reject.

Which is why they neither know the Father nor the Son, because you honor not the Son as the Father: God.

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

[robert derrick]

Really.... not what the other Paul taught....

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

Now.... many many years after Jesus was raised from the dead by His God (Act 2:24, Act 2:32, Act 4:10, Act 10:40, Act 13:30 ) ... Paul still refers to Jesus as a Man.... Get over it dude!!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Spirit or Flesh?
Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man and robert derrick has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing robert derrick? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Next time robert derrick... Think before you post!!!
Then you won't look so .... as you now look....
Paul

You don't know the truth of scripture, because you don't know Him that gives the Scripture.

You don't know Him, because you don't want Him making you of His righteous flesh and bones on earth.

And so you twist Scripture to reject the Word was God, and Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life.

Your sinning monotheistic fathers didn't want to acknowledge Him righteously coming in the flesh, and neither do you.

Hybrid intellectualism with sinning in the flesh, is only a temporary fun substitute for knowing the Son and the Father.

 

[Ed McKee]

Distinct Persons in the Godhead, not separate.

Even the normal sinner knows the difference, but them that reject the Son as God, also reject normal sense.

The only time the Word was ever separated from God was as a man, when the Son gave up His soul and laid down His life for our sins, and the Father turned His purer eyes from His own dear Son.

Which idolators of a created christ reject.

Which is why they neither know the Father nor the Son, because you honor not the Son as the Father: God.

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Is this a reply to something I wrote? Doesn't sound familiar.

 

[robert derrick]

Then tell me who is GOD in this verse.... written many years after Jesus rose form the dead!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1. God

2. the man Christ Jesus

It's not that hard... for some!!!
Paul

The Word was God and still is: Jesus Christ is the resurrected God of Israel.

Simple.

Idolators prefer another christ, who doesn't come in the flesh without sinning.

 

[Ed McKee]

You don't know the truth of scripture, because you don't know Him that gives the Scripture.

You don't know Him, because you don't want Him making you of His righteous flesh and bones on earth.

And so you twist Scripture to reject the Word was God, and Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life.

Your sinning monotheistic fathers didn't want to acknowledge Him righteously coming in the flesh, and neither do you.

Hybrid intellectualism with sinning in the flesh, is only a temporary fun substitute for knowing the Son and the Father.

I'm a little confused why I'm getting replies from people I did not address and their posts don't make sense.

 

[robert derrick]

Is this a reply to something I wrote? Doesn't sound familiar.

The quote is from 'dropship'.

Be glad it's nothing you would remember saying.

 

[Ed McKee]

The Word was God and still is: Jesus Christ is the resurrected God of Israel.

Simple.

Idolators prefer another christ, who doesn't come in the flesh without sinning.

Everyone has an opinion but I'd like to see what the Bible says, not what someone says.

 

[Ed McKee]

The quote is from 'dropship'.

Be glad it's nothing you would remember saying.

How about helping me out here. Doesn't seem like a Christian attitude. Don't forget what Jesus said about the lost sheep if that's what you think I am.

 

[robert derrick]

• I hear what you are saying and agree with some of it, but you don't quote any scripture verse for what you believe. In John 17:3 Jesus said that his father was the "only true God", so what kind of god could Jesus be if he's not the true God. A false god? Sounds like an open and shut case. Who would know better that God's firstborn son?

Now I am responding to you. As you can see yourself quoted.

John 1 declares the word was God, and the word was made flesh and called Jesus in the gospels.

1 John 5 declares our understanding with Jesus Christ, is that He is the true God and eternal life. I John 1 declares He is that eternal life we have fellowship with.

Since He is God, the true God, and eternal life, then we read John 17 accordingly: While the Son was on earth as a man, He was speaking to the Father in Heaven: The Father was the only true God alone in heaven, while the Son and only true God was on earth.

He honored the Father as the true God alone in heaven.

The only false god along with all false gods, is the created christ made up by idolatrous men, that do not want God coming in the flesh commanding them to repent and live as He as His flesh and bones.

If you reject the above Scriptures and reject the Word and Christ as God, the true God, and eternal life, then do so.

 

[robert derrick]

Welcome to the forum.

Jesus is neither “the only true God,” nor is he “a false god”.

Please tell me what you think of this, a quote from a first century Jew named Philo. (Perhaps you’re familiar with him.) He said the following about Moses:

“What more shall I say? Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he was called the god and king of the whole nation …”

(The Life of Moses, I, xxviii)

This is obviously not a passage from the Bible. I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this Jewish concept of a human person being called theos (Heb. elohim).

The Lord made Moses as a god to Pharaoh, with Aaron as his prophet, not to God's people Israel.

Later idolatrous jews, like the one you speak of, made Moses a god to themselves, and so rejected Jesus as Christ and God, and still have the vail of Moses over their hearts when reading Scripture.

Whether jew or christian, unbelievers insist on twisting Scripture so as to justify themselves.

Jesus was not the next Moses, nor Abraham, but was the Word and Christ that spoke to Abraham with promise and gave the law to Moses.

He was called out to Adam in the garden.

And was God in the beginning of creation to create and make all things by His Spirit: the Maker, the Lord, the God of heaven and earth.

The Word was God and made flesh and called Jesus.

Everything else is disingenuous rubbish of unbelieving sinners.

 

[robert derrick]

If Jesus is God, why did he say he isn't?

This is a good question. Not because it is demanded by unbelievers:

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

The answer is simple: Though Scripture plainly declares Him God in the beginning, and now true God, eternal life, and LORD of LORDS, Jesus did not walk around calling Himself God. The closest He came to doing so, was saying "I am", and "You said it".

1. The Word did not come down out of heaven to earth to be a God in the flesh over all men, but to dwell among men in the flesh to declare God and show God in the flesh, as the once for all answer to them, such as Job, calling for Him to do so:

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:

Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

2. He came to show God in the flesh, that men might believe God can dwell with man on earth, and so He let His works do His talking:

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

3. Scripture is written by God in such a way as to allow anyone that does not want to believe, to go on not believing: even as Jesus did not come in the flesh as God demanding worship and obedience to His ever word, nor does God accommodate unbelievers and scoffers by writing His word beyond plainness.

Jesus could have well said, "I am the Lord thy God, and I have come to you in the flesh, to command your obedience and worship to me personally."

And with mighty signs and wonders, all men would have either groveled before Him, sought favors of Him, fought to the death for Him, or defied Him unto death.

Which is of course what the beast does in Rev 13.

Simply put, Jesus did not openly declare Himself God, because that would have saved no soul by faith through sight only, as well as, God doesn't need to keep saying He is God in Scripture over and over to satisfy the gainsayers, who wouldn't believe it anyway, even as their fathers would not have believed:

Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe.

In the end, unrepentant sinners prefer idolatry rather than the true God coming in the flesh righteously.

Simple.