Johann
Well-Known Member
How's this..
In the beginning was the Memra, and the Memra was WITH/pros YHVH in active communication/intimate fellowship..[two distinct Beings...] pros YHVH= YHVH and the Memra is YHVH.
That's my Jesus Christ
J.
Jesus is either God or is not God: There is no 'In Between'
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In the beginning was the Memra, and the Memra was WITH/pros YHVH in active communication/intimate fellowship..[two distinct Beings...] pros YHVH= YHVH and the Memra is YHVH.
That's my Jesus Christ
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
The Secret of the Invisible God Who Can Be Seen
Is it possible for Jews to believe that Jesus is God? It depends on what is meant by this question.
It is not possible for Jews to believe that God could cease to be God by taking a human form and for them to believe that in seeing Jesus, people literally saw God in His very essence. It is possible, however, for Jews to believe that God is capable of remaining in heaven while revealing Himself in the “tent” of a human body.
If God has actually done this, it would explain some of the mysterious passages in the Tanakh, and it could even relate closely to some rabbinic ideas.
In a midrash to Psalm 91, when Moses realized that the tabernacle could not contain the fullness of God, the Lord proclaims, “The entire world cannot contain My glory, yet when I wish, I can concentrate My entire essence into one small spot. Indeed, I am Most High, yet I sit in a [limited] refuge” (ArtScroll Siddur, 380-381).
Before explaining how God can make Himself visible, let us look at what the Hebrew Scriptures have to say about the possibility of seeing God. In Exodus, God tells Moses that “no one can see Me and live” (Exod. 33:20), but it is written in Exodus 24,
Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and 70 of Israel’s elders, and they saw the God of Israel. . . . God did not harm the Israelite nobles; they saw Him, and they ate and drank. (Exod. 24:9-11, CSB)
How is this possible? Abraham Ibn Ezra thought that the elders saw God in a prophetic vision. This interpretation is problematic however, since the text would not have mentioned that God did not harm (literally, raise His hand against) them. If it was just a vision, why explain that God did not strike them for seeing a vision? It appears that they really saw the God of Israel, but how?
There are numerous appearances of “the angel of the LORD” in the Hebrew Scriptures in which the people who seeHim fear for their lives because they have “seen God” (see Exod. 3:1-6; Judg. 13:15-23). Does this imply a real divine appearance?
Even more telling is Genesis 18, which explains that the Lord (Hebrew, YHWH) appeared to Abraham and conversed with him and Sarah (Gen. 18:1-2a). There were three men – according to the Talmud, angels – who appeared to Abraham.
But the Talmud also says that Abraham “saw the Holy One, blessed be He, standing at the door of his tent” (b. Baba Mesia 86b). Abraham and Sarah dined with the LORD, who stayed with them while the two angels went to Sodom (cf. Gen. 18:22, 18:33-19:1). According to this account, one of the three men was YHWH. This text refers to Him having dusty feet (Gen. 18:4), sitting down, eating, and talking, yet all the while He remained the Lord of heaven and earth, which means that God has the ability to appear on earth in human form while remaining enthroned above.
The doctrine of the Incarnation, which speaks of God visiting us and living among us in the person of Yeshua the Messiah, is nothing other than the most thorough explanation of the many theophanies (meaning, divine appearances) of YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures. While Maimonides stated that God has no form (see Deut. 4:12-28), there are passages in the Tanakh which state that God does have a form (see Num. 12:8 and Ps. 17:15).
The fact is that the ancient rabbis also dealt with the question of how the invisible God could interact with human beings, using the Aramaic term Memra’, which means “the word” to personify God. In other words, God’s “word” is depicted as an extension of Himself, performing His divine will (see Ps. 107:20 and Isa. 55:10-12), with the most dramatic example found in the creation account, in which God created all things by speaking.
The Aramaic Targums further developed this concept of the divine Memra’, often speaking of “the word of the Lord” rather than “the Lord Himself.” Compare the following examples in which the scriptural passage comes first and the Targum (the Aramaic translation of the ancient rabbis) follows:
Gen. 1:27
God created man
The Word of the LORD created man (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan)
Num. 10:35
Rise up, O Lord!
Rise up, O Word of the LORD!
Isa. 45:17
Israel will be saved by the LORD
Israel will be saved by the Word of the LORD
Perhaps most interesting is the Targum’s rendition of Genesis 28:20-21. Whereas the Hebrew reads, “If God will be with me . . . then the Lord will be my God,” the Targum reads, “If the Word of the Lord will be with me . . . then the Word of the Lord will be my God.” We have to keep in mind that these words echoed in the ears of those who attended the synagogues over the centuries; they heard over and over again that Jacob’s God was the Word of the Lord!
If we were to go to the beginning of the Gospel of John and substitute Memra’ for “word,” we would get the following text: “In the beginning was the Memra’, and the Memra’ was with God, and the Memra’ was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made” (John 1:1-3). This is sounding quite Jewish! The main difference is that while the manifestations of God in the Hebrew Scriptures occurred episodically, being few and far between and only lasting briefly, the miracle of God’s self-disclosure in Yeshua is that this manifestation lasted for thirty-three years.
Like you, hound of monotheist Judaism, I too would rather consult Jewish resources, the scriptures primary.
J.
Hello. I never expected to hear from you again. What happened that caused you to change your mind?
True or false.
Davar (Hebrew), logos (Greek) and memra (Aramaic) are synonymous terms.
True or false.
Everyone has their own davar / logos / memra.
If it’s true, is your davar / logos / memra a person who is you and another person with you?
Is your davar / logos / memra a “he” or an “it”? *Tyndale*
Davar (Hebrew), logos (Greek) and memra (Aramaic) are synonymous terms.
True or false.
Everyone has their own davar / logos / memra.
If it’s true, is your davar / logos / memra a person who is you and another person with you?
Is your davar / logos / memra a “he” or an “it”? *Tyndale*
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Dropship
Well-Known Member
Is that a recipe for a Klingon delicacy?..
Here, put this on the menu-
Jesus said "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
Checkmate..
|I think the primary problem with the trinity doctrine is (beside the fact that now days everyone seems to have their own definition) that all the verses used to prove it come with a caveat. Such as with John 1:1, the caveat being that problem with the definite article and the fact that in both vs 1 and v 2 it says that Jesus was WITH God. Then you have the same person that wrote John 1:1 that also wrote John 17:3. Do you think John was contradicting himself or Jesus. I doubt it, and thus the reason he left out the definite article. Example #2: Isaiah 9:6 the "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father". Neither one is found in the Septuagint and in the Dead Sea Scrolls it is so convoluted that it seems no one agrees how it should be translated. It seems the only thing we know for sure is that "Eternal Father" and "Mighty God" were added about 900 AD. There are many other examples. This is what I mean by "caveat".
Yet we have absolute statements from the very mouth of Jesus that say his father is "the only true God"- John 17:3, that "the father is greater than I am"-John 14:28, "I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”John 20:17, " that "I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it"-John 12:49. Notice how all these statements from the very mouth of Jesus himself are recorded by the same person that folks like to say didn't leave out the definite article in John 1c on purpose? Then you have the statement in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 which clearly shows that even when Jesus is in heaven he will be in subjection to his Father, God, Jehovah.
Now just give me one verse where Jesus said that he is God Almighty that is as point blank as these statements of the "son of God". I'll even settle for one scripture that says Jesus is God the son instead of the son of God.
To me it does look like a slam dunk. Just saying.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
The Son declares in John 17:5 that He was together with the Father before Creation."We heard the voice on the mountain say 'This is my beloved Son'" (2 Peter 1:16-18)
That's yet another verse that clinches the fact Jesus wasn't God, so I can't understand why some people think Jesus was God, perhaps it's a vanity thing and they like to think they know more than the rest of us poor schmucks?..
Only God exists prior to creation.
Yet another verse that clinches the fact Jesus is God.
Perhaps its a vanity thing that people reject the truth.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-Known Member
You went through all that trouble to show that my bible is not fallible and now you piously ask if Jesus is God?
People like you who cast doubt on the infallibility of the scriptures, how is it going to fare with you on Judgement day?
Personally I think we have people in the guise of Orthodox Judaism or the spirit thereof creeping in
surreptitiously
/ˌsʌrəpˈtɪʃəsli/
...to debunk the infallible D'var God-breathed, sitting in the seat of Moshe, and then ask: where is your God now?
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Nope, "chach mate"Is that a recipe for a Klingon delicacy?..
Here, put this on the menu-
Jesus said "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
Checkmate..
But I am not here for a friendly/hostile bantering
J.
Not trying to prove the fallibility of the Bible at all, but if something was added the holy scripture 900 years after it was written it doesn't belong in the Bible. That's why God said this in his holy scriptures: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18–19.) I think he would feel the way about someone that added to it. Either way it would change the true meaning.
Do you want to accept verses or parts of verses that were added 900 years after the original manuscript as truth or do just not care as long as it proves something that you believe?
Johann
Well-Known Member
You reckon yourself a scholar?
Or do you read your info from others and THEN critique as to what is, and what not, is fallible, or infallible?
J.
True.
True.
No.
It.
So is God’s. So is Christ’s. So is John’s. So is everyone’s.
“In the beginning was the word (davar / logos / memra), and the word was with God and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, but the darkness comprehended it not.”
(John 1:1-5, NMB)
There was no person with God. God’s davar / logos / memra was with God.
What God plans, in Hebrew idiom, is “with him”.
“By the word of Yahweh the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.”
(Psalm 33:6)
“Then God said, ‘Let there be …’” and what he had planned came into being.
“I am Yahweh, the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by myself and spreading out the earth all alone.”
(Isaiah 44:24)
No angel created the heavens and the earth. Yahweh did, alone, by himself. And he did it in accordance with what he had planned.
John is thoroughly grounded in the Hebrew Bible. Let’s read John 1:1 with that same grounding in mind.
“WITH” is subjective.
~ You can be “WITH” your wife, even if you are at work, and she at home.
~ You can be “WITH” your wife, she present, you both at home.
“IN” is specific.
~ “IN” God, “IS” God.
~ That which IS “IN” God, “IS” God.
~ That which Comes forth OUT FROM IN God, IS God, Yet STILL, IS IN God.
Gods Creations; Heavens, Earth, Celestial beings, Terrestrial beings, WERE NOT, “IN” God. Did not come forth OUT OF God.
Gods WORD...JESUS...IS God, WAS IN God, Came forth OUT From God, Yet Remained IN and WITH God.
Gods POWER....CHRIST...IS God, WAS IN God, Came forth OUT From God, Yet Remained IN and WITH God.
Gods WORD...JESUS....Gods POWER...CHRIST....Sent Forth OUT From God ... WAS SENT to “manKIND”...AND Remained IN and WITH God.
You didn't quote any scriptures and as I have said before everyone has an opinion, but I would prefer to know what the Bible says instead of what someone says. That being said, being in God does not imply being God unless you think all Christians are God because of what Jesus said here in John 17:20,21: “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
“In the beginning was the plan of Yahweh, and the plan was with Yahweh, and the plan was Yahweh’s. The same plan was in the beginning with Yahweh. All things were done according to it, and without it nothing was done, that was done. In this plan was life, and that life was the light to mankind. Now that light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not take hold of it.”
(Yisrael Hawkins, The Book of Yahweh: The Holy Scriptures, John 1:1-5)
Inserting “Jesus” or “Son of God “ or “an angel” “or “a man” in these passages changes the thought and intention of John.
(Yisrael Hawkins, The Book of Yahweh: The Holy Scriptures, John 1:1-5)
Inserting “Jesus” or “Son of God “ or “an angel” “or “a man” in these passages changes the thought and intention of John.
Terrestrials being by Form-ing.
Terrestrials continue Form-ing.
Once the Terrestrial is Form-ed, it becomes Delivered.
Once the Delivery is Accomplished, it is called Born.
Once the Born is Accomplished, it is Given Gods Breath of Life.
God Sent His Word forth out of His Mouth, Prepared a Body For His Word and Sent ‘that Holy Thing’, His Word, IN a Prepared Body,
to Earth, to a Virgin Womb, to Accomplish Express things God Desired For His Word TO Accomplish.
The Body God Prepared FOR His Word, was the Express Image of Gods Body, was the Express Likeness of a Terrestrial MAN, A JEWISH MANS Likeness, Expressly to BE An Example FOR ALL of Terrestrial MAN-KIND created things.
What WAS that Holy thing, the Being, BEFORE God Sent it to Earth?
God Himself. God omnipresent.
* God IN Heaven, His Kingdom, His Throne, His Estate, His Holy inhabitants.
* God ON Earth, His Footstool, Corrupt Earth, Corrupt ManKinds Estate, Corrupt ManKind.
* God ON Earth, the Teacher, the Example, the HOW TO, for any manKIND, to hear, learn, choose, BY, THROUGH, OF Him...
for manKIND to Become MADE, BY THROUGH, OF HIM....
IN Gods LIKENESS.
Glory to God,
Taken
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Appreciate the "slam dunk" - I believe God:
1) [The Father Unto His SON] Saith "Thy Throne, O God, Is For Ever And Ever..."
(Hebrews_1:8)
2) Rev 1:
[6] "And hath made us kings and priests unto God [The SON] and His Father;
to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
[7] Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they
also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of
Him. Even so, Amen.
[8] I AM Alpha and Omega, The Beginning and The Ending, Saith
The LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, The Almighty.
[10] I was in the Spirit on The LORD's day, and heard behind me
a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, I AM Alpha and Omega, The First and The Last...
[17] And when I saw Him, I fell at His Feet as dead. And He Laid His
Right Hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM The first and The Last:
[18] I AM He [JESUS, The SON] that liveth, and was Dead; * and, behold,
I AM alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
[7] Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they
also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of
Him. Even so, Amen.
[8] I AM Alpha and Omega, The Beginning and The Ending, Saith
The LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, The Almighty.
[10] I was in the Spirit on The LORD's day, and heard behind me
a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, I AM Alpha and Omega, The First and The Last...
[17] And when I saw Him, I fell at His Feet as dead. And He Laid His
Right Hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM The first and The Last:
[18] I AM He [JESUS, The SON] that liveth, and was Dead; * and, behold,
I AM alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
3) * see Acts 20:28 = "...God's OWN BLOOD!..."
4) "[Paul] planted, Apollos watered, but [Only] God Gave the increase"
So, since we cannot argue others "into heaven," And since you Already
have the "slam dunk," guess this will have to be good-bye. Will pray for you...
(Romans 16:17)
GRACE And Peace...
Christ is Gods Power.
Christ IN a Converted man, IS Gods Power IN a man.
A Converted man IN Christ, IS a Converted man IN Christ Jesus’ Risen Body.
God does not give HIS “POWER” ( ie HIS Spirit/ His GLORY ) to others.
A man who Has Gods “POWER”, with him, IS God with Him.
A man who Has Gods “POWER” in him, IS Gods Power in Him.
A man Does NOT POSSESS Gods POWER.
Hi Johann, I got an email saying you replied with this: "You reckon yourself a scholar? Or do you read your info from others and THEN critique as to what is, and what not, is fallible, or infallible?
J.", but it sees to have disappeared. If you don't mind I'll respond here.
I don't reckon myself a scholar, far from it but I do know how to read and have above average common sense. I have done a lot of bible study many years ago and still do from time to time. I still remember a lot of what I learned back then but have trouble remembering the scriptures, so the internet comes in handy for an old guy.
It's not hard to find scriptures that are spurious and they must be thrown out. It is just a very tiny fraction of what is in todays bible. Probably way less that .0001% of what is there. Some of them however are there to promote a false believe. Isaiah 9:6 is one such verse. For years I couldn't figure out why that verse said what it did and then one day (years ago, at one time we didn't have internet) I stumbled across the fact that part of it was not in the Dead Sea scrolls or the Septuagint. An important part. "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father".
So I read the Bible with Strong's Concordance and an interlinear at my side just so I get a accurate picture of what is being said. Works for me.
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