Jesus is either God or is not God: There is no 'In Between'

[robert derrick]

God is the God and Father of the man Christ Jesus.

And Jesus is the Lord and God of His flesh and bones on earth.

Not sinners. Nor idolaters.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[robert derrick]

Except YHWH declares many times in the OT- He ALONE is the Savior and there is NONE besides Him as Savior. Yet the entire NT refers to the Son as the Savior of the world, not the Father.

Hence the Son is God- our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 and our God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1

next

The LORD also said there is no god with Him.

And so there is no god with Him in the beginning, but only the Word that was God with Him.

 

[Matthias]

I think you're the first person I've run across that doesn't thing John was not talking about Jesus in 1:1.

Pleased to meet you.

How did you come up with that idea? On your own or in some organized religion?

From reading John 1:1 through the lens of Jewish unitary monotheism.

find it unusual that Tyndale's doesn't capitalize god at all.

Tyndale saw in this passage what I see in the passage. John is speaking here about the Father’s logos. John is pointing his readers back in the prologue to Genesis.

The subject in the prologue is the God who spoke and brought into existence that which had previously existed only in his mind. John is setting the stage in the prologue the new creation. (The God who did that is the God who did this.) Then unfolds the story of how the God who created the heavens and the earth is acting in and through Jesus to bring about the new creation.

Jesus is the incarnation of the Father’s word, not the incarnation of an angel or of another person who is also God.

I think he was talking about God and Jesus for the reason I gave you. At least I think I mentioned it to you about the use of definite and indefinite article.

Tyndale? If so then you must think that John was calling Jesus an “it” in his translation. I see only one person in Tyndale’s translation - Almighty God, the God and Father of Jesus of Nazareth. I’m surprised that you see two persons in his translation, but we see what we see.

I’ve directed your attention to a translation which I believe conveys my understanding of John’s prologue. There are dozens more like it, and I expect that you would probably have the same reaction to them as you do to Tyndale.

Which translation(s) do you recommend to your readers?

Jesus obviously not human in "the beginning" so I'l go with angel. I think Paul says as much in Gal. 4:14 and again in 1 Thes. 4:16 Jesus is said to have the voice of the archangel. I'm sure there are other verses but I'm a little rusty and don't want to write a book.

So you believe then that Jesus was an angel created by God sometime before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

That sounds like what the JW’s believe. Are you a JW? If not, are you familiar with their teaching? How does your belief about Jesus differ from theirs?

 

[robert derrick]

How about helping me out here. Doesn't seem like a Christian attitude. Don't forget what Jesus said about the lost sheep if that's what you think I am.

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

What do idolaters that know not God nor Jesus Christ, know about how He and His flesh and bones rebukes idolaters?

Whether atheist or idolater, it's always something special to tell the saints how to behave like Christians.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.

 

[Ed McKee]

Pleased to meet you.



From reading John 1:1 through the lens of Jewish unitary monotheism.



Tyndale saw in this passage what I see in the passage. John is speaking here about the Father’s logos. John is pointing his readers back in the prologue to Genesis.

The subject in the prologue is the God who spoke and brought into existence that which had previously existed only in his mind. John is setting the stage in the prologue the new creation. (The God who did that is the God who did this.) Then unfolds the story of how the God who created the heavens and the earth is acting in and through Jesus to bring about the new creation.

Jesus is the incarnation of the Father’s word, not the incarnation of an angel or of another person who is also God.



Tyndale? If so then you must think that John was calling Jesus an “it” in his translation. I see only one person in Tyndale’s translation - Almighty God, the God and Father of Jesus of Nazareth. I’m surprised that you see two persons in his translation, but we see what we see.

I’ve directed your attention to a translation which I believe conveys my understanding of John’s prologue. There are dozens more like it, and I expect that you would probably have the same reaction to them as you do to Tyndale.

Which translation(s) do you recommend to your readers?



So you believe then that Jesus was an angel created by God sometime before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

That sounds like what the JW’s believe. Are you a JW? If not, are you familiar with their teaching? How does your belief about Jesus differ from theirs?

You are an unusual dude. Sounds like rambling to me but I guess that's why there's 30,000 different religions that claim to be Christian. Amazing.

 

[Dropship]

"We heard the voice on the mountain say 'This is my beloved Son'" (2 Peter 1:16-18)

That's yet another verse that clinches the fact Jesus wasn't God, so I can't understand why some people think Jesus was God, perhaps it's a vanity thing and they like to think they know more than the rest of us poor schmucks?..

 

[Ed McKee]

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

What do idolaters that know not God nor Jesus Christ, know about how He and His flesh and bones rebukes idolaters?

Whether atheist or idolater, it's always something special to tell the saints how to behave like Christians.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.

Wow! I think I have better things to do. Sorry.

"We heard the voice on the mountain say 'This is my beloved Son'" (2 Peter 1:16-18)

That's yet another verse that clinches the fact Jesus wasn't God, so I can't understand why some people think Jesus was God, perhaps it's a vanity thing and they like to think they know more than the rest of us poor schmucks?..

I like you and if that is a picture of you, you look like a nice guy too. I used to talk to a lot of people about these things years ago and always found that if you show them the facts in the scriptures the would just get mad. Their minds already made up and they don't want to bothered by scriptures. They's rather start name calling.

By the way, as you probably know the Bible is full of proof that Jesus is not God. All the verses that are used to prove otherwise all have caveats, unlike John 17:3,
John 17:3 - His Father is the only true God.
John 3:16 - only getotten Son
1 John 4:9 only begotten Son
John 1:14, 18 - Jesus is the only begotten Son
Colossians 1:15 - Jesus is firstborn of all creation
Revelations 3:14 - he is the beginning of the creation of God
Hebrews 1:6 only first begotten
Proverbs 8:22 - created, formed, brought forth, possessed.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus identified as Wisdom
Matthew 24:36 - only the Father knows the day and hour
John 14:28 - the Father is greater thatn Jesus
Just to name a few.

 

[RedFan]

The subject in the prologue is the God who spoke and brought into existence that which had previously existed only in his mind. John is setting the stage in the prologue the new creation. (The God who did that is the God who did this.) Then unfolds the story of how the God who created the heavens and the earth is acting in and through Jesus to bring about the new creation.

Jesus is the incarnation of the Father’s word, not the incarnation of an angel or of another person who is also God.

The concept of "personhood" is overladen with the concept of uniqueness; a person is just one, unique person, not two persons. And it's easy for us to think of God or features/aspects of God (Wisdom of God, Word of God, fill-in-the-blank of God) as what we would call a "person" yet not a separate person from God. Indeed, if God's Word is a feature/aspect of God, concluding that that Word is a separate "person" from the Father presents quite a bit of intellectual difficulty. We would normally just assume that God's Word is a personification of the One God, but not a separate "person."

Once God's Word became incarnate, attributing personhood to the Word separate from the personhood of God is still intellectually difficult, at least for most of us. (Probably some would say it gets just a bit easier.)

But once that incarnate Word (let's call him Jesus, for lack of a better name) actually starts talking to the Father, and doing so in terms which Jesus's listeners could hardly be expected to understand in any other way than an acknowledgement by Jesus of the Father being a separate Person from Jesus himself -- well, now the game is changed. Now the incarnate Word starts to look very much like a separate person from the Father.

Early Christian thinkers trying to piece this together, particularly once John's gospel was in play (I don't know when it was written, probably late first-century), surely had some intellectual difficulties with this. How can these monotheists square Jesus's appearing to have a separate personhood from the Father with there being but one God, unless the Word Incarnate were NOT God? I have some theories on this, Matthias, if you want to discuss them off-line.

 

[Dropship]

By the way, as you probably know the Bible is full of proof that Jesus is not God..

I know, here's yet another clincher..-
"A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered, “No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)

 

[Matthias]

You are an unusual dude.

Well, you did say that you’ve never met anyone like me before.

Sounds like rambling to me but I guess that's why there's 30,000 different religions that claim to be Christian. Amazing.

What you’ve said doesn’t sound like rambling to me. Let’s talk about what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"We heard the voice on the mountain say 'This is my beloved Son'" (2 Peter 1:16-18)

That's yet another verse that clinches the fact Jesus wasn't God, so I can't understand why some people think Jesus was God, perhaps it's a vanity thing and they like to think they know more than the rest of us poor schmucks?..

I used to talk to a lot of people about these things years ago and always found that if you show them the facts in the scriptures the would just get mad. Their minds already made up and they don't want to bothered by scriptures. They'd rather start name calling.

Let’s talk about what you believe and why you believe it.

My dear Precious friends, why do I believe what I believe? Seems to me that the
"Scriptural Evidence" is certainly in favor of "JESUS Is God" (504 Passages)
vs
"Jesus is NOT God" (10, 15, or even 20? verses):

504 Plain And Clear Passages The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

Just a few, to begin?:

Certainly we all agree That "The Mighty God, The LORD, Is The Creator
Of all things," Correct?:

"In the beginning, God Created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis_1:1) ✔
+
"The Mighty God, even The LORD, Hath Spoken, and called the earth
from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.” (Psalms_50:1
cp Deuteronomy 10:17; Psalms 132:2-5; Jeremiah 32:18.) ✔ ✔
​

So, why the problem with The LORD Jesus Christ, Being The Mighty God,
and The Creator Of all? What Saith The Scriptures?:

“For unto us A Child is born, unto us A SON is given: and the govern-
ment shall be upon His Shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
(Isaiah_9:6) ✔ ✔ ✔​

critic: No, The LORD Jesus Christ is NOT "The Mighty God"
Bible: Yes, The LORD Jesus Christ Is "The Mighty God"
Which should I believe?
+

"...The WORD Was God...All things Were Made By Him; and
Without HIM was not any thing made that was made."
(John_1:1-3 cp Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2; Ephesians 3:9
cp God Created all things!! - Psalms 102:24-25; Acts 14:15;
Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 42:5) (18 Passages = 18)
​

critic:
No, The Father "created the son," THEN the son "created ALL other things"
I believe The Bible! ✔ ✔ ✔ ✔
+
The Great God And Saviour Of sinners (+ 6 Passages = 24):

JESUS Forgave sin - Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5....and Only GOD Can Forgive sins
- Mark 2:7. Only God Can Forgive sin Where HE (At The CROSS) Atoned
For them – Acts 20:28 And Colossians 1:14. JESUS Is God.
+

"Looking for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing of
The Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus_2:13)​

Believe ALL of The Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17) ✔ ✔ ✔ ✔ ✔
+
The LORD Is Righteous JUDGE Of all (+ 8 Passages = 33):

JESUS ALONE Is The Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge Is God -
Isaiah 33:22; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 18:8, Revelation 20:12;
Hebrews 13:4; Romans 2:3, Romans 2:5 - JESUS Is God. All the
verses in the Bible that talk about God Being The Judge Refer To
JESUS, Since He Alone Judges. The Father judges no man - John 5:22.​

Correct?
------------------------------------
Rule # 6 of Bible study Rules =

The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :
The BIBLE Itself!

NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures
by the "few" difficult verses, But, ALWAYS Always
Interpret the few Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses
By ALL Of The MANY Plain and Clear Passages Of
God’s Pure And Holy Word!​

---------------------------------
Please let me know IF you wish to throughly Prayerfully and
Carefully investigate Many More (472 Passages)...

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Dropship]

If anybody cares to quote any scripture where Jesus himself says "I am God", that'll clinch it, but as far as I know there are no such verses..

And consider this-
"Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:13-17)

See, Jesus didn't say to Peter "Wrong answer, I AM God"..

 

[RedFan]

JESUS Forgave sin - Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5....and Only GOD Can Forgive sins
- Mark 2:7.

The power to declare sins forgiven can be delegated to others. John 20:23. By your logic, the apostles are each God too.

 

[Johann]

Do you know God?

Funny, there are over 6000 gods so when you converse with a person on God/god he/she would think, that's my God/god.

Try this with a Orthodox Jew.
J.

 

[Johann]

I think you are confusing deity with divinity.

Angels are divine, in that they are 'of God.' Jesus, being the Son is also 'of God.' But neither are a deity. How many times does YHWH have to say he alone is our God? You do recognize that YHWH said this, right?

Wonder Who is the Memra and the Word of YHVH WITH YHVH, ehyeh asher Ehyeh.
Not too difficult
J.

 

[Johann]

If anybody cares to quote any scripture where Jesus himself says "I am God", that'll clinch it, but as far as I know there are no such verses..

And consider this-
"Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:13-17)

See, Jesus didn't say to Peter "Wrong answer, I AM God"..

Yeah, Ho Kurion mou kai ho Theos mou...
Checkmate.
J.

 

[Taken]

Jesus is either God or is not God: There is no 'In Between'
OP ^

IS God;
Gods Essence, Holy, Spirit, Invisible, without beginning, without ending.
Gods Character, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, Righteous, Holy
Gods Names, I Am, Yahweh, Jesus...
Gods Titles, LORD, KING, Father, Son, Holy Spirit...
Gods Word, Jesus, Life, Truth, Promises, Maker...
Gods Power, Christ, Glory, Spirit, Savior, Light, Mighty, Creator...
Gods Wisdom, Christ, Order, Way, Direction...
Gods Seed, Gift, Blessing, Assurance With God Forever.


IS God;
Holy, holy, holy;
Holy Lord, Holy God, Holy Almighty

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Johann]

The LORD also said there is no god with Him.

And so there is no god with Him in the beginning, but only the Word that was God with Him.

Philo of Alexandria (20 B.C. - 40 A.D.) occupies a unique place in the history of philosophy. He was a Jewish thinker living in one of the most important cities of the ancient world during a pivotal time. Much of Philo's work is focused on the transcendence of God and the "Logos." The notion of the Logos was deeply ingrained in Greek philosophy during the first century. But what makes the Philonic Logos particularly compelling is that the Gospel of John (the Evangelist) calls Jesus Christ the "Logos" (John 1:1-3). Questions have subsequently arisen regarding what extent, if any, Christian doctrines such as the Incarnation are derivative of Philo. The aim of this article is to provide a brief sketch of the Philonic Logos and compare it with the Johannine* Logos. A close analysis shows only surface level similarities between these two conceptions.

The Philonic Framework

Philo was committed to the Jewish faith and found no conflict harmonizing Jewish theology and Greek philosophy. The term "Logos" is used a great deal in the Old Testament, although it does not have a univocal meaning. The Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Septuagint, renders Logos hundreds of times across various books. For example, Deuteronomy 32:45-47 reads:
And Moses...said unto them, Set your heart unto all the words [logos] which I testify unto you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do...For it is no vain thing [logos] for you; because it is your life, and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land...
Logos was often understood theologically in terms of personified divine wisdom (Job 28:12, Proverbs 8, 9). Philo adopts these, and also identifies the Logos as The Angel of the Lord. (1) The Angel of the Lord is understood by Philo in some contexts as distinct from YHWH and other times identical (Genesis 16:7-13, 32:24-28; Exodus 23:20; Hosea 12:4-5; Malachi 3:1).

The Jewish Targums merged the idea of Scriptural theophanies and prophesy into a single concept, Memra. The Jewish Encyclopedia explains as follows:
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided. (2)
Shekinah and Jekara are also used in this context. (3) Due to the Jewish influence in Alexandria during his time, it is likely Philo had access to or intimate knowledge of these writings. The extent to which the rabbinical literature and/or Targums influenced Philo would have to be determined based on a detailed assessment that is beyond the scope here. But Philo's commitment to the transcendence of God and the allegorization of the Hebrew Scriptures are prominent themes. When the Scriptures conflict with philosophical rationale, the former is subsumed under the latter.

It is from a distinctly Platonic philosophical framework that Philo fully explicates the Logos. The Philonic Logos is the bridge between the infinite God and finite creation. God is revealed to His creation through the Logos, though not in a personal way. The Logos is the wisdom of the divine and the organizing principle of matter. The Platonic Ideas (i.e. Forms) are situated within the Logos, and the material world is formed according to these templates.

The Philonic Logos is metaphysically necessary, for the absolute Being cannot pass into creation without corrupting His essence. The Logos does not go beyond creating and preserving the world. The ontology of the Logos would most closely resemble an emanation from the divine essence; it is the highest of the intermediary beings between God and man. The Logos is the "first-born" of God, but inferior to God. God expresses Himself and His acts through the Logos. (4)

The Logos and Messiah

Whether Philo connected the Logos with the Jewish Messiah is an interesting question. But answering in the affirmative seems speculative at best, and anachronistic at worst. For example, Ronald Williamson cites various scholars who doubt the hypothesis that Philo identified the Messiah with the Logos. (5) The chief reason is that Philo does not express the Logos as a person. Philo might be understood as conceiving of the Messiah as an allegory for the Logos. If the Messiah was to be an actual person, then the Logos might act through such a person. But it seems Logos cannot be identified with Messiah on pain of contradicting fundamental principles of the Logos' nature.

The Logos of John the Evangelist stands in stark contrast to the Philonic Logos. The Johannine Logos is identified as God Himself who took on human flesh (John 1:1-3, 14). This is what Christians refer to as the doctrine of the Incarnation. Codified at Chalcedon in 451 A.D., this doctrine maintains that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man. He is one Person with two distinct natures. Thus, the Johannine Logos is the divine substance. In contradistinction, the Philonic Logos is not of the same substance as God.

The Logos of Philo and John: A Comparative Sketch

Trinitarians don't worship "three Gods" but echad.
J.

 

[Taken]

Deity - IS God.
Divinity - Characteristic OF God....

Gods DESIRE, is that men will Freely Choose to BECOME “MADE” in Gods “LIKENESS”.

Gods WORD, Jesus,
Gods TRUTH, Jesus,
Gods WAY, Jesus,
Gods LIFE, Jesus,
Teaches a man HOW TO BECOME “MADE” in Gods “LIKENESS”.

Gods POWER, Christ,
“MAKES” a man in Gods “LIKENESS”.

Gods WISDOM and POWER, Christ,
“KEEPS” a MADE man in Gods “LIKENESS”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Matthias]

This Catholic website discusses what has been called the “Messianic Secret” - Jesus’ reluctance to claim, let alone broadcast, that he is the Messiah.

The “Messianic Secret”

Meanwhile, trinitarians at our level of interaction commonly say that Jesus openly claimed something much greater than that - to be God himself, even as detailed as the second person of the Trinity; a doctrine which took the church four centuries to formulate - which some among them deny.

Where is the Trinity in scripture? Everywhere, if you’re a trinitarian; no where if you’re not.

Where does Jesus himself claim to be the Messiah? Shhh. It was, for a while, a secret. If you knew he was the Messiah (good on you, for so in fact he is), he asked you not to tell.

Now sit back in your chair, relax and listen as the trinitarians tell their tales about Moses the trinitarian, Isaiah the trinitarian, David the trinitarian, even Jesus the trinitarian. Do you believe them? Will you believe them?