Jesus is either God or is not God: There is no 'In Between'

[robert derrick]

Really.... not what the other Paul taught....

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

Now.... many many years after Jesus was raised from the dead by His God (Act 2:24, Act 2:32, Act 4:10, Act 10:40, Act 13:30 ) ... Paul still refers to Jesus as a Man.... Get over it dude!!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Spirit or Flesh?
Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man and robert derrick has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing robert derrick? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Next time robert derrick... Think before you post!!!
Then you won't look so .... as you now look....
Paul

You only believe in another created spiritual being and god between God and man, is because you don't know God, nor Jesus Christ.

You prefer to worship another another god of your own making.

God said there is no god with Him, and every god that made nothing shall perish.

And so, the reason you know not God, is because neither you nor your god are with Him.

You do have lot's of scholarship though. Unfortunately, them that know Him are saints, not necessarily scholars.

 

[robert derrick]

The is no in between, but can't people who believe Jesus is God in flesh, and those who believe he is the Son of God, get along?

As neighbors? Certainly.

As sons of God? Certainly not:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Now, if you want to start telling the idolaters how great their god and christ is, then do so.

I'll pass.

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

I love Jesus too much to start denying He is Christ and God.

 

[robert derrick]

.
• 1John 4:2-3 . . By this you know the Spirit of God . . Every spirit that
confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
And this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard was coming,
and is now already in the world.

The flesh spoken of in that passage is David's flesh.

"Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to
the flesh" (Rom 1:1-3)

Now, in order for Jesus be born with David's flesh, Jesus needed a mother
biologically related to David because Joseph played no role in her pregnancy.

"The angel said unto her: You shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a
son, and shalt call his name Jesus . . . and the Lord God shall give unto him
the throne of his father David: (Luke 1:30-32)

So then, unless someone can prove beyond even a hint of sensible doubt
that neither Mary nor David were biologically related to Eve, then we must
concede that Jesus is biologically related to Eve; and seeing as how Eve's
body was constructed with material taken from Adam's body, then everyone
and anyone descending from Eve is/are Adam's descendants according to
the flesh.

The conclusion to draw from Jesus' biological genealogy is that the Word of
John 1:1 hasn't always existed as an h.sapiens, rather, the Word's existence
as an h.sapiens began with the very dust from which Adam was created.

Now, according to 1John 4:2-3, folks insisting that neither Mary, nor David,
nor Eve, nor Adam had a role in providing Jesus with flesh are presently
under the influence of the spirit of antichrist; and that is a really unfortunate
condition to be in.

"If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
(Rom 8:9)
_

Well done. It also disproves the self-justifying doctrine of the flesh being born with sin nature.

The flesh as dust and grass is simply created by Christ mortal from the beginning, just like every other living creature on earth created by Him as the Word: He became mortal flesh just like the rest of us. That is how He can be our true example of righteousness and forerunner to the Father.

Sinners want to believe it's the flesh's fault when they sin.

 

[Bob Estey]

As neighbors? Certainly.

As sons of God? Certainly not:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Now, if you want to start telling the idolaters how great their god and christ is, then do so.

I'll pass.

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

I love Jesus too much to start denying He is Christ and God.

None of us knows everything yet, but I think we can walk together till we do.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You are also being hypocritical in capitalizing the Word and the Son. No god is to be capitalized with God, even as there is no god with Him.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

But it is no small wonder that someone who does not know the Lord God, would care about anything He says.

You could at least be honest with yourself about Jesus being son and god, even as you believe.

Otherwise, you are simply hiding what you believe, that Jesus is not God, but a god, because you are ashamed of it.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

robert Derrick said:
You are also being hypocritical in capitalizing the Word and the Son. No god is to be capitalized with God, even as there is no god with Him.
But it is no small wonder that someone who does not know the Lord God, would care about anything He says.
You could at least be honest with yourself about Jesus being son and god, even as you believe.
Otherwise, you are simply hiding what you believe, that Jesus is not God, but a god, because you are ashamed of it.[/QUOTE\]

I'm not being hypocritical about anything just because you and anyone else believes that. God inspired men to write such scriptures as John 3:16; John 17:3; John 20:17; John 20:31 and many other scriptures that testifies that Jesus is the Son of God. What I don't know if many are either denying these scriptures or ignoring them or interpreting these scriptures to mean something other than what God inspired John to write down because many are clearly not agreeing with them. when Jesus says he has a Father and God who is also his apostles and disciples Father and God, that's the truth. So Jesus didn't say he was God but instead he said he has a Father and God. This goes right along with scriptures such as John 17:3; John 3:16; John 20:31. I'm not going to ignore these scriptures as well as any of the other scriptures that testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. I'm not really concerned if you believe I'm hypocritical I'm going to believe the truth because the scriptures are God's truth which is what Jesus has always agreed with and has always stated.

 

[Dropship]

If Jesus is God, why did he say he isn't?
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered, “No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
“Father, the hour has come...I am coming to you now" (John 17:13)
"I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)

The early Christians got it right-
"God spoke in times past by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1/2)
"There is one mediator between God and men,- the man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5)
John the Baptist said- "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands" (John 3:34-35)
"Jesus...has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2)

And Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?
God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)

 

[Pierac]

You only believe in another created spiritual being and god between God and man, is because you don't know God, nor Jesus Christ.

You prefer to worship another another god of your own making.

God said there is no god with Him, and every god that made nothing shall perish.

And so, the reason you know not God, is because neither you nor your god are with Him.

You do have lot's of scholarship though. Unfortunately, them that know Him are saints, not necessarily scholars.

Then tell me who is GOD in this verse.... written many years after Jesus rose form the dead!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1. God

2. the man Christ Jesus

It's not that hard... for some!!!
Paul

 

[Ed McKee]

Many times we lose the main point by getting caught up in all the details of Scripture.

The main thing is that Jesus is either God or He is not.

There is the true God, and then there all the rest of us created beings: there is no 'almost' God.

God is the most high God, because there is no created being anywhere near being God, other than God Himself.

If Jesus is just another created being and man, who behaved himself heroically on earth, then he's a real hero worthy of respect and admiration and study, just like all famous or infamous men and angels, but he is not any man's savior nor redeemer nor lord nor god.

Only God can be my Savior and Redeemer and God: I am not saved by Superman, nor by a new Gilgamesh or Herakles.

All those who reject Jesus as God, only make things confusing by also hypocritically trying to honor Him as something between God and every other created being.

In Scripture, there is no such thing.

The Mediator between God and man is not another created being somewhere in between man, the angels, and God.

There is God the Creator and eternal Spirit, and there is all of us created spiritual beings among men and angels.

That's it.

• I hear what you are saying and agree with some of it, but you don't quote any scripture verse for what you believe. In John 17:3 Jesus said that his father was the "only true God", so what kind of god could Jesus be if he's not the true God. A false god? Sounds like an open and shut case. Who would know better that God's firstborn son?

 

[Matthias]

Then tell me who is GOD in this verse.... written many years after Jesus rose form the dead!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1. God

2. the man Christ Jesus

It's not that hard... for some!!!
Paul

God is the God and Father of the man Christ Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

• I hear what you are saying and agree with some of it, but you don't quote any scripture verse for what you believe. In John 17:3 Jesus said that his father was the "only true God", so what kind of god could Jesus be if he's not the true God. A false god? Sounds like an open and shut case. Who would know better that God's firstborn son?

Welcome to the forum.

Jesus is neither “the only true God,” nor is he “a false god”.

Please tell me what you think of this, a quote from a first century Jew named Philo. (Perhaps you’re familiar with him.) He said the following about Moses:

“What more shall I say? Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he was called the god and king of the whole nation …”

(The Life of Moses, I, xxviii)

This is obviously not a passage from the Bible. I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this Jewish concept of a human person being called theos (Heb. elohim).

 

[Ed McKee]

If Jesus is God, why did he say he isn't?
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered, “No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
"I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
“Father, the hour has come...I am coming to you now" (John 17:13)
"I am going to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)

The early Christians got it right-
"God spoke in times past by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1/2)
"There is one mediator between God and men,- the man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5)
John the Baptist said- "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands" (John 3:34-35)
"Jesus...has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2)

And Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?
God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)

• I hear what you are saying and agree with some of it, but you don't quote any scripture verse for what you believe. In John 17:3 Jesus said that his father was the "only true God", so what kind of god could Jesus be if he's not the true God. A false god? Sounds like an open and shut case. Who would know better that God's firstborn son?

God or a god as in John 1:1

Welcome to the forum.

Jesus is neither “the only true God,” nor is he “a false god”.

Please tell me what you think of this, a quote from a first century Jew named Philo. (Perhaps you’re familiar with him.) He said the following about Moses:

“What more shall I say? Has he not also enjoyed an even greater communion with the Father and Creator of the universe, being thought unworthy of being called by the same appellation? For he was called the god and king of the whole nation …”

(The Life of Moses, I, xxviii)

This is obviously not a passage from the Bible. I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this Jewish concept of a human person being called theos (Heb. elohim).

Strong's concordance shows two ways theos can be translated, God and a god. God referring to Almighty God and a god referring to men or angels. it is used in both ways in John 1:1. The 1st century Jews understood this concept. In John 10:34 Jesus said to them "Is it not written, you are (theos) gods. As I'm sure you know the Jews had no concept of a trinity, but rather believed in "one God".

 

[Ed McKee]

God is the God and Father of the man Christ Jesus.

Exactly! You get no argument from me on that. I think we pretty much see eye to eye.

 

[ChristisGod]

LOL The softball‘s keep coming for me to knock out of the park with the power of the Spirit of God!!!

Except YHWH declares many times in the OT- He ALONE is the Savior and there is NONE besides Him as Savior. Yet the entire NT refers to the Son as the Savior of the world, not the Father.

Hence the Son is God- our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 and our God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1

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[Matthias]

Strong's concordance shows two ways theos can be translated, God and a god. God referring to Almighty God and a god referring to men or angels.

Yes. Technically, it can also mean a goddess and an idol.

it is used in both ways in John 1:1.

I take it then that you see two persons in John 1:1; Almighty God (one person) and a god (another person). Do you see this second person as a man or as an angel?

The 1st century Jews understood this concept.

Yes. The 1st century Jews understood the concept of agency.

In John 10:34 Jesus said to them "Is it not written, you are (theos) gods.

They, including Jesus, understood that a human person who represents God is a person who is God’s agent - for example, Moses (Exodus 7:1; Philo). That is why Moses can be called elohim or theos. The Jews certainly didn’t think Moses was literally Almighty God, nor did they think he was an angel. Moses is theos / elohim in a secondary sense.

This is an important technical point. Just because someone is identified in scripture as theos / elohim doesn’t mean or imply that such a person is literally Almighty God.

As I'm sure you know the Jews had no concept of a trinity, but rather believed in "one God".

Their history documents forays into idolatry but, when they remained faithful to the God of Israel, their concept was strict unitary monotheism.

Jesus himself is a Jew. His concept of God is the strict unitary monotheism of Judaism.

 

[Ed McKee]

In John 1:1 I see it as Almighty God and Jesus who was used by God and given both his words and power to heal, etc. by God making a god in the sense of what God gave him. The way John wrote it shows that Jesus was a powerful being but not God. Jesus himself recognized this in the same book in John 17:3.

Again, I don't see any difference in the way we see this.

 

[Matthias]

In John 1:1 I see it as Almighty God and Jesus who was used by God and given both his words and power to heal, etc. by God making a god in the sense of what God gave him. The way John wrote it shows that Jesus was a powerful being but not God. Jesus himself recognized this in the same book in John 17:3.

So in John 1:1 you see Almighty God (one person, the God and Father of Jesus) and a god (Jesus).

I was asking if you see Jesus in this passage as a man or an angel (the two options you presented for someone who is “a god”.)

Again, I don't see any difference in the way we see this.

You see two persons in John 1:1. I see only one person in John 1:1.

 

[amadeus]

Then tell me who is GOD in this verse.... written many years after Jesus rose form the dead!

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1. God

2. the man Christ Jesus

It's not that hard... for some!!!
Paul

It is not hard for anyone who has the right One directing his steps:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

 

[Ed McKee]

Except YHWH declares many times in the OT- He ALONE is the Savior and there is NONE besides Him as Savior. Yet the entire NT refers to the Son as the Savior of the world, not the Father.

Hence the Son is God- our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 and our God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1

next

If the verse in Titus or 2 Peter said "our great friend Paul and Matthew" would you think it was speaking about the same person? I think not. It seems you see what you want to here and not what is meant. It could be two different people or the same one I guess if that's what you believe going in. I don't see how anyone looking at scripture could believe that Jesus, God and HS are one person unless they were like atheists who came up with an idea and then tried to find a reason for it.

Jesus in John 17:3 said that his Father was the only true God. Col. 1:15 it says Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. If something is the image of something it can not be the thing it is the image of and firstborn of all creation means he was created. Mat. 24:36, 37 says “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." If Jesus was God he would have known I guess. There are many other scriptures that show Jesus wan not God.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I don't see how anyone looking at scripture could believe that Jesus, God and HS are one person unless they were like atheists who came up with an idea and then tried to find a reason for it.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board. Thanks for your input.
Yes, some believe in only "one" person, But Biblically, as Per 1 John 5:7
"There Are Three, Who Are All In ONE GodHead!":

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God!

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

GRACE And Peace...