Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I mean, the reason I ask is that I have never, in all my years in forums and 45 years a Christian, have I ever heard anyone suggesting we can save ourselves by being good. It seems such a strange suggestion.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
When you claim obedience is REQUIRED, you are! The word “Required is making it a term of the agreement, if you fail to live up to your side. You will break the agreement,
That’s why I have continued to show how if obedience is required, it must be according to what God says, and he states if we want to earn salvation on our own, we must be perfect. Or no sin, we have already failed, each sin carry’s with it a death penalty how many death penalties do we have against us?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yet you keep saying obedience is REQUIRED.
The word required is the word I am questioning.
by the way, I have heard it many times, maybe no in the exact wording, but we hear it all the time, it’s just most deny it
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The alternative is to say to the church... Church, your obedience to God isn't necessary. I can imagine how long a preacher will last in the pulpit repeating Satan's temptation to Eve.
But just a little note here...I didn't claim that obedience was necessary in order to be justified.
KJV Romans 6:1
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Absolutely obedience is required. Question it all you like. But scripture demands we become servants to God. See Romans 6. Servants of righteousness. It would be a neat trick to pass yourself off as a servant that isn't required to obey the one you were called to serve.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So a preacher should lie and say obedience is required to be saved? Putting people under law?
that’s the problem. That’s why legalism runs rampant. No one who understands the depth of their sin goes on thinking it’s ok to sin. That’s just a legalistic mindset brought out by people who think we have to maintain our salvation or we can lose it
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Well then again I ask how can obedience be required what perfection is the required line of obedience required and NO ONE can meet that standard
it’s like saying you must fly to the lowest cloud to make it. Yet no one has that ability. Your putting the onus on the person who can not meet the standard and not the savior who Came to offer carry you to where you need to go
it’s contradictory
I will question it. If obedience is required then we better meet the standard. Good luck with that
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So romans 6 is going to tell me that I have to live up to Gods standard to be saved? That I have to be perfect?
ps. We are talking about how a person is saved and ends up in heaven. Not what a child of God is supposed to do.
When you say required. Your making it a pre-requisite.
Is obedience required to receive eternal life. Are we saved by works (obedience) or Grace?
Romans 6 does not help you
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You are not justified by your works. But you're not going to heaven without them either. Of they are so offensive to you... If obedience is so offensive to you, them go back to the world where you can be one with the world, because
KJV Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Oh boy
so I am not justified by works
but if I do not do them I will not get to heaven (be justified)
which is it? Is it grace or is it works?
once again, I am not discussing christian growth, or what a true child of God does, I am discussing what must be done to be saved, (get to heaven)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
There is no difference. Justified means to be declared righteous or innocent of any wrong doing. Considering the law condemns us and the penalty of sin is death. The fact we are justified means we are saved.
How can you claim you are saved by Grace if you have to work to maintain that salvation? If this is true, it stops being Grace, Because if it is of Grace it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace (the apostle Paul)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
We don't work to maintain salvation... We trust. We believe and place ourselves in God's hands because He has promised to never forsake us. Stop with your incessant straw man theories regarding my faith. You don't know me well enough to call me a liar.
Tell us. On what basis were these people permitted to enter heaven?
KJV Matthew 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
You will have to read the context for your answer.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your right, I am glad we agree.
However, You keep insisting obedience is required. So that is a contradiction.
all I am doing is asking you about what you are saying
You say we are not justified by obedience (works) yet if we are not obedient (works) we will not be saved.
Your the one wiht the contradiction. Its not a strawman. Your right, I do not know you. so all I have is what you keep telling me
Well lets see, Which ones were justified by Faith and which ones were not?
You want to focus on what we call sanctification or christian growth
Once again, I am talking about justification or receiving eternal life or being born again.
Can you please stick to the topic.
Once again, My only concern is you saying obedience is REQUIRED. that in effect makes salvation by obedience. Or justification by works.
in other words. Your saying justification is only possible if we become sanctified (conditional salvation)
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Brother Backlit, you are purposely being turned in circles. Take a step back and rest your weary soul if you like. You've done a great job in this thread. Resolution is not being sought at all by those pulling your strings. God bless you.
So, I've read the entire thread ... which is very rare for me when they've already gotten this long.
I have multiple verses that haven't been posted yet that should silence some nay-saying, but ... they won't. They never do. People will just keep posting and posting in circles to take the thread way off into the wilderness. It's a strategy that is used ad-nauseam by those who wish to silence and obscure the Truth.
In reference to the 10 Commandments (which include the Sabbath):
They were created to act as a guide until faith comes by grace from God, then it is time to be baptized and then we obey them out of faith and love for God. (Galatians 3:23-26)
We obey the 10 Commandments to show God that our faith is real.
Nobody would argue that we will not be judged (well, most won't). So if we are all going to be judged without a doubt, what will we be judged for, or by, if not the 10 Commandments?
(Matthew 12:36-37) We will be judged by, and give account for, every idle word and by our words we will be justified or condemned.
If that's the case, how can anybody believe it's ok to break any of the commandments with our deeds?
Lying, stealing, fornicating, dishonoring God, or our parents, regularly because Jesus saved us and made all sin OK?
Jesus, Himself, says not that it is a command, or that we MUST, but that we "WILL" obey IF we love Him. He says it is a certainty.
(1 John 5:3) IF you TRULY love God, you DO keep His commandments; and they are NOT an issue for you.
(John 14:15) IF you TRULY love Jesus, you DO keep the commandments. It is an observation that those who DO love Jesus, keep His commandments. It's not a requirement ... it is a FACT. If you TRULY have the Holy Spirit (who IS God/Jesus), the Spirit won't have it any other way. Why would He live contrary to His own commands?
(John 15:14) IF you are TRULY a friend of God/Jesus, you DO what He has commanded. God's commandments are Jesus' commandments; Jesus even says that He only says and does what the Father does. (John 5:19)
For those who love to declare,"Love the sinner, hate the sin!" Well, God sends the sinner to hell, not the sin. So you'd do well to figure out exactly what He considers sin.
(Romans 3:20) It is by the Law that we learn what Sin actually is.
(1 John 3:4) Sin = Lawlessness (Living without, or outside, the Law of God; the 10 Commandments)
(Romans 7:7) Is the Law sin? CERTAINLY NOT!
(Romans 3:31) Do we make void the Law? CERTAINLY NOT! We establish (obey, live by; present ourselves as keepers of) the Law.
(Romans 2:13) Not the hearers, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
(Romans 7:12) The Law is holy, the commandment holy, just and good.
(Romans 7:22) Paul states he DELIGHTS in The Law.
Many claim that Acts 15 negates the Law, but (Acts 21:24) proves that it absolutely does NOT when it states clearly that Paul is, and always has been, a keeper of the Law.
Contrary to all the naysayers, obeying the 10 Commandments actually affords you freedom; it does not restrain you - just the opposite. James tells us we are blessed when we obey the Law of God. (James 1:25) The Perfect Law of Liberty.
The 10 Commandments are not, and never will be, done away with. Jesus' entire life was a testament to that.
No, you do not have to be 100% PERFECT, like Jesus was, to LIVE by the Commandments. You certainly STRIVE for it, but you are not condemned by God when you stumble, just as James has made very clear. (James 3:2) BUT it is not a stumble unless you are choosing and intending to walk upright. If, like so many, you are on your bum in the mire of sin daily, it cannot be deemed a stumble. It is then habitual and a disgrace to God Almighty to even call yourself a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. We are to live as He lived, struggle as He struggled, suffer as He suffered. (1 John 2:6)
What suffering, or struggle, is there in forsaking the 10 Commandments?
So, I've read the entire thread ... which is very rare for me when they've already gotten this long.
I have multiple verses that haven't been posted yet that should silence some nay-saying, but ... they won't. They never do. People will just keep posting and posting in circles to take the thread way off into the wilderness. It's a strategy that is used ad-nauseam by those who wish to silence and obscure the Truth.
In reference to the 10 Commandments (which include the Sabbath):
They were created to act as a guide until faith comes by grace from God, then it is time to be baptized and then we obey them out of faith and love for God. (Galatians 3:23-26)
We obey the 10 Commandments to show God that our faith is real.
Nobody would argue that we will not be judged (well, most won't). So if we are all going to be judged without a doubt, what will we be judged for, or by, if not the 10 Commandments?
(Matthew 12:36-37) We will be judged by, and give account for, every idle word and by our words we will be justified or condemned.
If that's the case, how can anybody believe it's ok to break any of the commandments with our deeds?
Lying, stealing, fornicating, dishonoring God, or our parents, regularly because Jesus saved us and made all sin OK?
Jesus, Himself, says not that it is a command, or that we MUST, but that we "WILL" obey IF we love Him. He says it is a certainty.
(1 John 5:3) IF you TRULY love God, you DO keep His commandments; and they are NOT an issue for you.
(John 14:15) IF you TRULY love Jesus, you DO keep the commandments. It is an observation that those who DO love Jesus, keep His commandments. It's not a requirement ... it is a FACT. If you TRULY have the Holy Spirit (who IS God/Jesus), the Spirit won't have it any other way. Why would He live contrary to His own commands?
(John 15:14) IF you are TRULY a friend of God/Jesus, you DO what He has commanded. God's commandments are Jesus' commandments; Jesus even says that He only says and does what the Father does. (John 5:19)
For those who love to declare,"Love the sinner, hate the sin!" Well, God sends the sinner to hell, not the sin. So you'd do well to figure out exactly what He considers sin.
(Romans 3:20) It is by the Law that we learn what Sin actually is.
(1 John 3:4) Sin = Lawlessness (Living without, or outside, the Law of God; the 10 Commandments)
(Romans 7:7) Is the Law sin? CERTAINLY NOT!
(Romans 3:31) Do we make void the Law? CERTAINLY NOT! We establish (obey, live by; present ourselves as keepers of) the Law.
(Romans 2:13) Not the hearers, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
(Romans 7:12) The Law is holy, the commandment holy, just and good.
(Romans 7:22) Paul states he DELIGHTS in The Law.
Many claim that Acts 15 negates the Law, but (Acts 21:24) proves that it absolutely does NOT when it states clearly that Paul is, and always has been, a keeper of the Law.
Contrary to all the naysayers, obeying the 10 Commandments actually affords you freedom; it does not restrain you - just the opposite. James tells us we are blessed when we obey the Law of God. (James 1:25) The Perfect Law of Liberty.
The 10 Commandments are not, and never will be, done away with. Jesus' entire life was a testament to that.
No, you do not have to be 100% PERFECT, like Jesus was, to LIVE by the Commandments. You certainly STRIVE for it, but you are not condemned by God when you stumble, just as James has made very clear. (James 3:2) BUT it is not a stumble unless you are choosing and intending to walk upright. If, like so many, you are on your bum in the mire of sin daily, it cannot be deemed a stumble. It is then habitual and a disgrace to God Almighty to even call yourself a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ. We are to live as He lived, struggle as He struggled, suffer as He suffered. (1 John 2:6)
What suffering, or struggle, is there in forsaking the 10 Commandments?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So you want to talk about sanctification.
This is good.
I have a question.
Do we look to the law of moses to find obedience?
Or do we look to the law of Love to find obedience?
I agree. the ten commands are not done away, they are still sin.. But do you agree I can keep all of them according to the letter and still be in sin?
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Yeah that's funny.
You know what's REALLY funny though?
Nobody had posted in this thread since 8:22 this morning and almost IMMEDIATELY after I posted that LONGGG post, YOU posted.
ISN'T THAT FUNNY THOUGH??? That's so funny.
It's like you were just sitting there ... CHOMPING AT THE BIT for me to hurry up and post my post so YOU could HURRY, HURRY, HURRY and post some nonsense to try and bury MY post.
Now THAT is some CRAZY stuff there, Planck!!
And you know what's EVEN CRAZIER??? The time stamp says you waited TEN MINUTES!! But YOU DIDN'T!
You posted within 60 SECONDS TOPS of my post getting posted. NUTTY, nutty, nutty.
Some FUNNY stuff going on here, Amadeus.
God bless you and all your split personalities.
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