Lambano
Well-Known Member
Oh, yeah, the hymn a certain Baptist church would play right after threatening you with eternal 1st-degree burns. Definitely made an impression on a certain 12-year-old child.
Jesus is the answer. - But what's the question?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Yes. Spiritual extortion.
--- PARODY ---
Christian: You should become a Christian.
Victim: Why on earth would I want to do that?
Christian: Huh? What do you mean?
Victim: Christians are the worst people on the planet.
Christian: No, sinners like you are the worst.
Victim: Seriously?
Christian: Yes, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: Doesn't it also say not to judge others?
Christian: I'm not judging you. That will come latter.
Victim: Like when?
Christian: After you die without Christ.
Victim: Are you talking about a forever burning hell?
Christian: Yes, that's where you are going.
Victim: How would you know?
Christian: Again, that's what the Bible says.
Victim: But what do you say?
Christian: I agree with the Bible.
Victim: You are proving my point about why I don't want to be a Christian.
Christian: Why not?
Victim: I don't want to be like you.
Indeed.
/
That sounds like evangelical to me more than a funny parody.
If a person is found grieving and you say it’s all in Gods plan. Sometimes people don’t have a serious relationship with Yahava or really know him. Just a confused idea of what is presented to them if they are not willing to learn and grow in the Lord Yeshua, who is the vine. It’s love that comes through a person which coming from Yahava and the Spirit of Christ come through in order to hold your flesh back from becoming to buck wild to handle which sometimes can lead to terrible and desire to see people get harmed or deciding to harm oneself.
If a person doesn’t have love. They are in Paul’s addressing “am nothing.”
There is none of this “do you wanna be a Christian and having all the answers: like those who may dwell on the evangelical side of things being taught in universities and private schools from other people who decide to teach what is known as the standard held in the “community of what is taught, and how to go about how to handle and teach the Bible.” They try to have an answer in the sense of an articulation of what they learned, however aside from the Bible itself it is just papers to look and reference and reflect on oneself and their direction they are going be it resurrected of damnation or resurrection of life and are you okay with your decisions before you die.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There are two extremes at work here…..God is neither a tyrant, nor is he an all forgiving sop who is guided only by sentiment. Justice is administered without sentiment. The terms attached to salvation are clearly stated…..Universalism wants to water them down….The “fire and brimstoners” want to ramp it up as if death is too good for sinners. You will find Jesus somewhere in the middle.
I can see that you are fond of parodies, but they are always slanted to present your view as if what you say is not arguable in scripture.
Go back to Genesis and see that “free will” was never a “free for all”…..it had to be exercised within the parameters set by the Creator at the outset. “Freedom within limits” was a guarantee that abuse would never take place…..stepping outside of those parameters is what got us where we are now.
Disobedience is a trap, because appealing to selfish desires is what the devil used on both Eve and her husband….he deceived the newer and less experienced of the two….but he used her as bait for Adam, who was not deceived. His disobedience was also selfishly motivated, and it was his decision to join his wife, that plunged all his future children into this life.….one that had to be “endured”, rather than “enjoyed”.
There is a big picture…..most will fail to see it.
Well of course my parodies are slanted to present my view. That's the point. (to MAKE a point)
And they are intended to be an argument from reality. A rare commodity in Christianity.
/
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
And you have no reply to the rest of what I said? Do you at least see the big picture when making your assessments regarding who God is, and what his purpose is in our being put here on this lonely planet….
Your "big picture" and my big picture are at odds. What can I say?
The planet should NOT be lonely when God is your loving heavenly Father.
He doesn't hate me. Contrary to your big picture.
I don't slander God by whitewashing doctrines that paint him as a sadistic tyrant.
/ @Hillsage
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It really doesn’t matter what you say, or what I say…it only matters what God’s word says…..ALL of it….not just selected bits that you find less objectionable, whilst sweeping the other stuff under the rug as if it was never written.
God will not change who he is for you…or me, or anyone else.
You cannot love a God, you don’t even like.
Whaoh there…..when I spoke of this “lonely planet”, I meant the planet itself, alone in a vast universe…..not the people on it.
If a Christian is lonely, it means that they have no brotherhood…..Christianity is a brotherhood of fellow believers who all accept one truth, not a gaggle of individuals arguing over which truth they will accept and which ones they won’t. (1 Cor 1:10)
I never said he hated you…..you said that.
God does not hate people…he hates the wickedness they practice, so he gives all the opportunity to repent and to stop doing what he says is wrong. Those who don’t, will not gain entry into his Kingdom…..he is done with those who want to do their own will and not his.
The well known, often quoted verse in John 3:16…..says…
“For God so loves the world that he has given his only Son, so that none who believe in him should perish, but should have everlasting life.”
Do you see a contrast here….to “perish“ OR to have “everlasting life”….these are the opposite destination….
The Greek word ”apollymi” (perish) means….
“to destroy
- to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin.” (Strongs)
Can you make those words say something else?
”Perish” means just that. You are no longer alive.
You see how easy it is to find scripture that argues with Universalist beliefs? This is a clear statement…not an ambiguous verse at all.
“Perish” doesn’t mean “saved” by some other means, or “by some loophole in the contract”.…it means to be “put out of the way entirely”…..so how can you make this verse say something else? Wishful thinking?
I don’t slander God either…I present him as the scriptures do….why can’t you? No doctrine that I accept, paints God as anything other than the way he paints himself….you seem offended by the way God has acted in the past…the flood of Noah’s day….Sodom and Gomorrah…the complainers in the wilderness…..God showed us in many ways who he is…and what he will and will not tolerate….but he is not what you want to believe him to be, so you want to alter him to suit your own sensibilities. He will not change for any human…..He is who HE says he is. Like it or not….take him or leave him.
Paul does not leave us in any doubt…
”26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Heb 10:26-31)
We can take note of those words……or we can ignore them at our peril…..it’s our choice.
That saw cuts both ways.
Why are your pet scriptures superior to mine?
Why do your scriptures mean what they say and mine don't?
That's what you are doing with my scriptures.
Discounting what they plainly say because they don't fit your personal "whole Bible" view.
Wow.
I have no issues with loving God.
It is not I that is calling God a tyrant, it is others that won't admit that they are.
I don't believe in the tyrant god idol they are bowing to.
Which they claim is no tyrant at all.
My point?
If a human did the things they attribute to God, we would call them a tyrant.
But when God supposedly does these things, well... He's God, he can do whatever he wants.
Right, like a tyrant. --- When will they wake up?
/ @Hillsage
Once again, UR to the rescue.
If what you say is true, then why not destroy the wickedness instead of the wicked?
That would prove that God truly does NOT hate people.
But what does your view prove? What will God destroy?
The wickedness, or the people?
1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.
/
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Good to see you. brother.What must I do to be saved ?
And good question.
That question has a curious origin.
Assuming it is attributed to the Philippian jailer.
The jailer was about to fall on his own sword.
The Apostle Paul stopped him. -- Then came the question.
"What must I do to be saved?"
From what was the jailer hoping to be saved?
In reference to wanting to fall on his own sword.
But the Apostle turned it around and broadened the scope.
Surprising that the jailer didn't say, "That's NOT what I meant!" - LOL
/
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Interesting question in a thread about questions, though I have to point out that in the context of that story, the Jailer had found out 2 seconds earlier that his prisoners had not escaped, so there was no reason to fall on his sword. (In a harsh world in which Roman discipline would come down hard on those found derelict in their duty, I have to wonder if that worldview affected the jailer's perception of Paul and his message?) The questions still stand:
- Why did the jailer think he needed to be saved?
- What did he need to be saved from? (Or, out of deference to that long-forgotten high school English teacher I brought up on the other thread, "From what did he need to be saved?")
- What did Paul have that the jailer suddenly realized that he wanted or needed?
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Let's look at that text.
Seems that the jailer's sword was drawn before he found out that no one had escaped. But...
What was he THEN trying to be saved from? Was there STILL a threat against his fulfillment of duty?
Doors open, chains fallen off. How would he explain? Would he be believed?
Acts 16:27-30 NIV
The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword
and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.
28 But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”
29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
/ cc: @ChristisGod
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I also noticed the reason why Paul was in jail....
16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave woman who had a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing great profit to her masters by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us and cried out repeatedly, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you a way of salvation.” 18 Now she continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and he turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!” And it came out at that very moment. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was suddenly gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the authorities, ...
(Key verse highlighted in purple in honor of St. Lydia, the Philippian seller of purple fabrics.)
So, Paul was preaching a message of salvation. Same question: What was Paul preaching salvation from? Is the answer in Romans 1:18?
16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave woman who had a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing great profit to her masters by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us and cried out repeatedly, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you a way of salvation.” 18 Now she continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and he turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!” And it came out at that very moment. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was suddenly gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the authorities, ...
(Key verse highlighted in purple in honor of St. Lydia, the Philippian seller of purple fabrics.)
So, Paul was preaching a message of salvation. Same question: What was Paul preaching salvation from? Is the answer in Romans 1:18?
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Have you thought about how the N.T. portrays salvation, eternal life and in whom one must place their faith ?
Its Christ, not the Father. Christ is the One Lord, the Only Lord that must be confessed to be saved. There is salvation in no other name but His. He alone is the Savior of the world. So when the OT is referencing those passages about salvation in YHWH, they are about the Son, not the Father. Kurios in the Greek N.T. and LXX ( YHWH in the O.T. ) is the One Lord/YHWH we must believe in to be saved. All the Apostles preached Christ for Salvation.
Just some food for thought. This is very problematic for the unitarian.
hope this helps !!!
I will just add this observation: I just spent a great deal of time on atheist-dominated forum. Consistently, they had no great depth of understanding of any metaphysical issues. They didn't really reject deism or theism - they had never looked into the issues deeply enough to reject either one. Their atheism was just as shallow. I used to tease them about being "atheist fundies."
What, really, was their atheism? It was a visceral reaction to and rejection of the God of fundamentalist (and more than just fundamentalist) Christianity. Their supposed atheism was little more than "WE REFUSE TO BELIEVE ANY GOD COULD BE LIKE THAT!!!" I kept telling them that if there is a God, we have to take Him as He is - we don't get to invent the God we think we'd be if we were God.
And yet, I am sympathetic to the atheist position. I'll have to admit, the "justice" of God does seem skewed and extreme, quite unlike even little old non-omnibenevolent me would administer to my fellow humans - to the worst of them, let alone the best of them. I've read all the books like Is God a Moral Monster? and they are helpful but not entirely convincing at a visceral level. I live with God's justice and the eternal fate of nonbelievers AS GREAT MYSTERIES. And I strongly suspect - but certainly don't claim to know - that there is something fundamentally off-kilter in our Christian thinking on many of these issues.
It's the Christians who aren't troubled by these sorts of things that are a bigger puzzle to me than are the atheists.
To be clear, I am a Christian Universalist, not a Unitarian Universalist.Just some food for thought. This is very problematic for the unitarian.
Two different things. FYI
Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption. (UR)
Not Unitarian Universalism. (UU) You, you. - LOL
/
Indeed, I have thought about that. From both sides of the argument. (debate/views)Have you thought about how the N.T. portrays salvation, eternal life and in whom one must place their faith ?
Its Christ, not the Father. Christ is the One Lord, the Only Lord that must be confessed to be saved. There is salvation in no other name but His. He alone is the Savior of the world. So when the OT is referencing those passages about salvation in YHWH, they are about the Son, not the Father. Kurios in the Greek N.T. and LXX ( YHWH in the O.T. ) is the One Lord/YHWH we must believe in to be saved. All the Apostles preached Christ for Salvation.
Just some food for thought. This is very problematic for the unitarian.
I was raised evangelical protestant, so I totally understand that view.
Though I have rejected their doctrine of the final judgment. (damnationism/annihilationism)
Preferring Christian Universalism.
And yes, I agree that the Jesus must be acknowledged as Lord. Every knee will bow and tongue confess...
Notice where and when the acknowledgement (confession) happens.
Under the earth? (in the realm of the dead)
Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
'
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I knew you were not a unitarian.
I was just throwing in that comment for free of charge. Similar threads
