Jesus is the answer. - But what's the question?

[St. SteVen]

If God has complete control over all his creation, then who among that creation has fingers to point at him?

No one; if God is the tyrant you make him out to be.

Surely God has the right of life and death….and surely to eliminate a person from existence is preferable to torturing them for all eternity in some kind of hell.

Yes; if God is the tyrant you make him out to be.

You are desperately trying to hang onto scripture that implies what you want to believe……your beliefs are not going to save you…..

First you tell me my beliefs are unbiblical. Even though I provided plenty of scriptures.
(I have more if need be) But what the point?

And now you say this? Will your beliefs save me? Is that your claim? ???

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[Aunty Jane]

No one; if God is the tyrant you make him out to be.


Yes; if God is the tyrant you make him out to be.

What if he isn’t the tyrant you make him out to be? What if you are misinterpreting everything I say?

What is he asking of any of us that is too difficult? Or too obscure to understand?

We are all trapped in sin and there is nothing we can do about that….this is the sin we inherit….but it’s NOT the sin we practice…..that is a choice. Can you tell the difference? We are saved from the sin we can’t help, but not from the sin we choose to practice when we know better. That is God’s perfect justice right there.
No one can ever accuse him of not doing what he said he would.
Life or death was the only choice put before Israel.…..it’s the only choice put before us as well. God doesn’t change.

First you tell me my beliefs are unbiblical. Even though I provided plenty of scriptures.
(I have more if need be) But what the point?

They will all be interpretations based on the Universalist theme…..and isn’t that the divider?……INTERPRETATION. What makes one person read a scripture one way and the next person read it in completely the opposite way?…..it’s the lens through which we choose to see what is written. If we are looking for the truth, shouldn’t we ask God to remove the lens that is distorting our understanding? But what if we don’t want to? That is our choice.

And now you say this? Will your beliefs save me? Is that your claim? ???

No! My beliefs will save no one…..but the correct interpretation of the scriptures is held by only one Christian brotherhood…..who were to come into their own at this time of the end……there is no way that Jesus has ever set foot in the disunited and bickering churches of Christendom, who are up to their necks in politics and supporting the bloodshed of their nations in wars. Their doctrines and customs are all borrowed from paganism, and their end will be a just reward for their continuing disobedience.
“Babylon the great” will be the first casualty of God’s final war. Those who cling to BtG will go down with her, (Rev 18:4-5) and justly so.

Jesus said that the “wheat” (true sons of the kingdom) have always been in existence, but choked out by a plethora of “weeds”. (Counterfeits sown by the devil) Satan has seen to it that the truth looks like lies and the lies look like the truth, (or are so confusing it’s hard to make sense of them) with no end of ‘weedy’ teachings appealing and catering to all religious tastes, any wonder people ditch Christianity? But in the time period before his manifestation as judge, Jesus has been directing a global preaching work that the churches, by and large, see as someone else’s job.

As part of his prophesy on the end of the age, Jesus said in Matt 24:14…
”And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

If you ask the average church-goer what God’s Kingdom is…how it “comes” and what the “good news” (gospel) about it is…..you will often get crickets….blank stares…or a desperate search for some sort of justification to explain why they are not out there fulfilling ‘the great commission……it wasn’t a request…it was a command. (Matt 28:19-20)

It’s a global work, which required a united global brotherhood and it was to continue right up until the judgment, because God cares enough to have his message taken out to the people personally…..it’s not something a local church does occasionally. And if they have no idea what the kingdom is, or how it comes, and what it’s purpose is…they are not sent from Christ. They basically have no message.…because it’s really all about the Kingdom.

 

[Berserk]

Auntie Jane overlooks the "hina" purpose clause in 11:32 which imples that God's purpose of "imprisoning" us ALL in disobedience is to save us ALL through mercy and grace. More seriously, she ducks 11:36, which clearly implies that God's purpose will ultimately be realized:
For from Him and through Him and BACK TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Auntie Jane overlooks the "hina" purpose clause in 11:32 which imples that God's purpose of "imprisoning" us ALL in disobedience is to save us ALL through mercy and grace.

Not what it says….really. There is no imprisonment…..we are all in this together is the thought.

More seriously, she ducks 11:36, which clearly implies that God's purpose will ultimately be realized:
For from Him and through Him and BACK TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS."

Sorry, but that is not the way most translations render that verse…..there is no “BACK TO HIM”. You are adding words to support your own beliefs….what translation are you using? It is inaccurate.

We have Paul’s words here in Romans 8:19-24.….to explain.
”The eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. For we were saved in this hope.”

The human race was subjected to this “futility” (confinement) “on the basis of hope” that it would lead to a grand reward. The ‘chosen ones’ were eagerly awaiting the kind of resurrection that Jesus promised to his “joint-heirs”…..”adoption as sons”, released from sinful flesh and the start of a new chapter in their existence as “kings and priests“ in the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 20:6)
These would form the Kingdom that was to rule over the rest of redeemed mankind who had to wait till the end of the thousand years to gain their freedom……a long period needed to expel all inherited sin from their flesh and to all be educated in God’s ways. A time that Isaiah spoke about in prophesy…(Isa 11:6-9)

 

[St. SteVen]

What if he isn’t the tyrant you make him out to be? What if you are misinterpreting everything I say?

Christians are in denial about the monster god they have created.
I do not make God out to be a tyrant. I say God is love. I say his justice is merciful and restorative,

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

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[St. SteVen]

Auntie Jane overlooks the "hina" purpose clause in 11:32 which imples that God's purpose of "imprisoning" us ALL in disobedience is to save us ALL through mercy and grace. More seriously, she ducks 11:36, which clearly implies that God's purpose will ultimately be realized:
For from Him and through Him and BACK TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS."

What is the "hina" purpose clause in 11:32 ?
That's a new term for me.

Romans 11:32, 36 NIV
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. ...
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

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[Lambano]

What is the "hina" purpose clause in 11:32 ?
That's a new term for me.

ἵνα ("hina") is the "so that" in verse 32.

Another good question is "Who is the πάντας? ('all') used twice in the same verse? All of what?

συνέκλεισεν γὰρ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς πάντας εἰς ἀπείθειαν ἵνα τοὺς πάντας ἐλεήσῃ
For God has shut up all together into unfaithfulness so that he might show mercy to all.

Should I get my πάντας in a wad?

 

[St. SteVen]

Should I get my πάντας in a wad?

Please do! - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

New forum topic.

What Does Christian Maturity Look Like? - "... solid food is for the mature..." - Heb. 5:14

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[St. SteVen]

ἵνα ("hina") is the "so that" in verse 32.

Aha, thanks.

Romans 11:32, 36 NIV
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

συνέκλεισεν γὰρ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς πάντας εἰς ἀπείθειαν ἵνα τοὺς πάντας ἐλεήσῃ
For God has shut up all together into unfaithfulness so that he might show mercy to all.

Aha, the same group. Everyone bound over to disobedience = the all he has mercy on. Sweet.

Romans 11:32, 36 NIV
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

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[Lambano]

Another good question would be, "Why is ἐλεήσῃ ('might have mercy') in the subjunctive mood, the mood of potentiality?" Is mercy only a possibility? If conditional, what are the conditions?

Or, perhaps the subjunctive mood in Greek might be just a literary device as it is in English (like this sentence).

 

[St. SteVen]

Another good question would be, "Why is ἐλεήσῃ ('might have mercy') in the subjunctive mood, the mood of potentiality?" Is mercy only a possibility? If conditional, what are the conditions?

Or, perhaps the subjunctive mood in Greek might be just a literary device as it is in English (like this sentence).

No. God's mercy is abundant and active. The Prodigal father RAN to meet his son when he saw him far off.

It seems that the word "might" in scripture doesn't carry the same ambiguity that it id does in modern English.
The NIV translated it as "may". As in a prerequisite for the effect. "... have mercy on them all."

Here's another example. Did Christ die and return to life to "sort of", or "possibly" be the Lord of both the dead and the living?
No, it's a prerequisite for the effect. "... be the Lord of both the dead and the living."

Romans 14:9 NIV
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

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[Lambano]

It seems that the word "might" in scripture doesn't carry the same ambiguity that it id does in modern English.

Look at it this way - the Greek subjunctive is the mood of potential and possibility, and it can be ambiguous. If you're the translator, how do you translate it into English? You have to guess from context what the author is trying to convey.

Speaking of context, one of the themes of Romans is the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. How should that affect our understanding of Paul's use of the word πάντας here?

 

[Lambano]

No. God's mercy is abundant and active. The Prodigal father RAN to meet his son when he saw him far off.

Nobody ever asks why dad didn't go off to the faraway land and drag the kid's sorry ass back home.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nobody ever asks why dad didn't go off to the faraway land and drag the kid's sorry ass back home.

Seems he knew that he wouldn't have to.
And that would have short-circuited what needed to happen to the lad.
He needed to have a change of heart before returning home. IMHO

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[Lambano]

He need to have a change of heart before returning home. IMHO

You mean he needed a μετανοέω? (Literally in Greek, to change his mind. But it's usually translated to the R-word.)

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
He need to have a change of heart before returning home. IMHO

You mean he needed a μετανοέω? (Literally in Greek, to change his mind. But it's usually translated to the R-word.)

Yes. Needed to repent. (turn away from/turn toward) Home in this case.

A term often confused with confession. (to admit/agree) With God in this case.

Makes me cringe when someone writes that they "repented of" something.
Should be repented FROM.

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[Lambano]

A term often confused with confession. (to admit/agree) With God in this case.

A term often confused with cleaning your act up before you can return home. I suspect the Prodigal Son still smelled like the pigpen. But that apparently didn't deter dad from embracing him.

So you have to return home to receive mercy?

 

[St. SteVen]

A term often confused with cleaning your act up before you can return home. I suspect the Prodigal Son still smelled like the pigpen. But that apparently didn't deter dad from embracing him.

So you have to return home to receive mercy?

I like the theme of that famous Billy Graham crusade closing song.
Just as I am

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[St. SteVen]

So you have to return home to receive mercy?

Only as it applies to the story of the Prodigal Father. In general...

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

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