Jesus says look for these Signs to know when My Return is Near.

[Davy]

Davy, I was being very serious, LOL, because of your miss understanding of this verse. Paul was indicating that, after the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles, i.e. the 2,300 years, that all of Israel will be saved.

Now you say that Luke 21:24 is about the distant future, but I would suggest to you that it is speaking about our near future and the time when the kings of the world will be judged at Armageddon when the 2,300 year period of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary is completed after which all of Israel will be saved. Luke 14:31-32 speaks of this time.

Now with respect to your understanding of Rev 11:1-2 that is very much a distant future event and has nothing to do with the Luke 21:24 scripture as you are suggesting. Sadly, the English translations have moved towards the same understanding that you are expressing but the translation of Romans 11:25 is very much in error but the gradual growing tradition of what a verse might become in this case is also a reflection of replacement theology.

The "fulness" (pleroma) of Rom.11:25 is about the time with the Gentiles coming to Christ is completed for this world; which of course happens on the day of Jesus' second coming. That is the context of that Romans 11 chapter, and of that verse. The unbelieving Gentiles coming to tread Jerusalem is not the context Paul was speaking of there with pleroma ("fulness").

The Luke 21:24 verse is about the Rev.11:1-2 events when the unbelieving Gentiles will tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months at the end of THIS world...

Luke 21:24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

That part in red is this event here...

Rev 11:1-2
1:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

The events of Luke 21 are signs that Jesus gave for the very end of this world. One of the differences Luke 21 has compared to the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions of Christ's Olivet Discourse is that Luke 21 is showing the 'desolation' of the Gentile armies that will gather around Jerusalem for the 42 months of the dragon's reign per Rev.11 and Rev.13. Jesus showed that 'desolation' there is not the "abomination of desolation" event, but the "days of vengeance" of Isaiah 61:2 when Jesus comes to do battle at Armageddon. That is the final day of this present world when that desolation of those armies surrounding Jerusalem will occur.

 

[Naomi25]

No, that is not what I showed from God's Word. All this could have been so easy if you had only stuck to what I showed from Scripture:

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

Not possible to deceive Christ's "very elect".

I find it interesting that many people who use these forums for a soapbox tend to phrase things: "What I showed you from scripture"....rather than just saying, "here's whats written in scripture", or "Here's what God says in scripture".

But as for what you showed me, let's refresh:

His very elect means those He has already 'sealed' with The Holy Spirit that are called and chosen, and cannot be deceived. That working by the false one is pointing to a supernatural working on earth, doing miracles probably like what our Lord Jesus did on earth at His first coming. Many of the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem will think he is their awaited Messiah, and by that, many Christian pastors will fall in line with them and say that's our Lord Jesus....And if Christ's very elect barely escape that deception, then what does that mean for Christian brethren that aren't familiar with these coming events which our Lord warned us about? Those will be like sheep at the slaughter.(post 54)

Those type of examples represent 'chosen' ones who were 'sent' (meaning of 'apostle'). They cannot be deceived or turned, because God already owns them...But those of us who are 'called' only, we must make our own choice, and belief on our own...That means those called only can... fall away and become apostates, if... we so choose. Christ's 'chosen' cannot turn away if they want, for Jesus already owns them....It's because the level of deceptive working of those signs and wonders will be so powerful so as to almost deceive His "very elect", meaning His chosen sent ones that He Himself alrealdy owns and controls and therefore cannot be deceived...So who especially might be the Christian pastors and brethren deceived by the coming Antichrist. Those expecting to be raptured at the start of the trib primarily. (post 56)

So...what you've really been showing/saying, is quite clear. You believe there are two distinct "groups" (your word, not mine) in Christianity. Those who have assurance of salvation, no matter what...those who you say are gifted with the 'apostle' gift. Then there are the rest of us who do not have this assurance. You say we can 'choose' to fall away from our faith. Forgetting for a moment that you are mixing OSAS issues, which pretty much no one sees in scripture (they either see one or the other), let's just focus on the fact that you seem intent on saying that those people who believe in the Rapture, will 'choose' to turn away because they're being deceived. That makes no sense either.
Regardless of 'sense' being made or not, your sum total scripture to back any of this up, are verses that you cannot prove are not talking to all Christians. You point to the different gifts in effort to prove separation within Christianity, but fail to show how gifts of the Spirit mean differing levels or salvational status.

Yes, there is Scripture in God's Word that sets the "very elect" chosen Apostles, prophets, and OT Patriarchs apart from the rest of the Church. There are some that God by His Own will brings into His service...

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
KJV

Jonah was another example, and Apostle Paul was the greatest example, as Jesus struck Paul down on the road to Damascus when Paul was persecuting Christ's Church. Their salvation is already assured and have already been sanctified (Rom.8).

Ah...no. No, these verses do not prove that there is a salvational difference between differing 'groups' in Christianity. Not at all. This passage in , John 15 is talking to all Christians! Jesus says in verse 13-15: 'Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Then he goes on in verse 16, 'You did not choose me, but I chose you....'
He is talking to all Christians, and we know this because he laid down his life for us all, not just your 'apostles'.

When scripture give us examples of Christians called and chosen by God, indeed, that is a wonderful picture to us of God's election promises. But you cannot find in scripture what you are proposing. Paul...chief of sinners, as he calls himself, was assured of his salvation, yes. But the bible gives me the exact same promises through Paul.
And it matters not how many verses you put up here pointing out the word "chosen", it still does not outline a different salvational status plan God has put in place.

 

[n2thelight]

Yes.

Stranger

Okay,I'll ask again,why were they not raptured?

 

[Stranger]

Okay,I'll ask again,why were they not raptured?

I've already answered you. Go back and read posts #16,17,18,19,20,21,43, and 65. If you can't see where I have answered you, then let me know.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

But as for what you showed me, let's refresh:

So...what you've really been showing/saying, is quite clear. You believe there are two distinct "groups" (your word, not mine) in Christianity. Those who have assurance of salvation, no matter what...those who you say are gifted with the 'apostle' gift. Then there are the rest of us who do not have this assurance. You say we can 'choose' to fall away from our faith. Forgetting for a moment that you are mixing OSAS issues, which pretty much no one sees in scripture (they either see one or the other), let's just focus on the fact that you seem intent on saying that those people who believe in the Rapture, will 'choose' to turn away because they're being deceived. That makes no sense either.

There are Christ's "very elect" believers, which He called and chose, and then there are the rest of us which have been called only. Simple as that.

Proof? The Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles.

And of course they all must... believe. The matter of predestination brings up the matter of just when... did the "very elect" believe, since God's Word reveals God having divinely intervened in their lives, and thus influencing their free will, Apostle Paul being one of the best examples in God's Word.

If OSAS could be a Biblical doctrine, then it would only apply to Christ's "very elect", those called and chosen.

I did not say anyone who believes in a rapture of the saints will choose to turn away. I said the 'deceived' of those who are prepared to fall away to the coming pseudo-Christ because of their being taught and believing the false PRE-TRIB rapture, are those who will do it willingly.

If one is not sealed by The Holy Spirit for the end, they will not be aware that the first supernatural entity coming to Jerusalem will be the Antichrist, and not our Lord Jesus. Those will be like the five foolish virgins of Christ's parable in Matt.25, of which the five foolish virgins failed to take a spare vessel of the Oil with them, that Oil of course representing The Holy Spirit, and thus the sealing of God's seal in the forehead of Revelation 9.

This is why in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul warned the brethren that he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin", for he was afraid that if we heeded another preaching "another Jesus", he was afraid we might bear with that false one. In that chapter Paul is actually covering the same kind of warning he gave the Thessalonians in 2 Thess.2 about the Antichrist coming to work signs and wonders sitting in the temple of God, proclaiming himself as God. And Paul pointed directly to Satan disguised as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.

If Paul had been like the majority of brethren that are called only, then he wouldn't even know of that coming deception for the end of this world, and wouldn't know to warn the brethren about it. But Paul was a chosen one directly by Christ Jesus, even to write most of the New Testament Books.

 

[Naomi25]

There are Christ's "very elect" believers, which He called and chose, and then there are the rest of us which have been called only. Simple as that.

Proof? The Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles.

And of course they all must... believe. The matter of predestination brings up the matter of just when... did the "very elect" believe, since God's Word reveals God having divinely intervened in their lives, and thus influencing their free will, Apostle Paul being one of the best examples in God's Word.

If OSAS could be a Biblical doctrine, then it would only apply to Christ's "very elect", those called and chosen.

I did not say anyone who believes in a rapture of the saints will choose to turn away. I said the 'deceived' of those who are prepared to fall away to the coming pseudo-Christ because of their being taught and believing the false PRE-TRIB rapture, are those who will do it willingly.

If one is not sealed by The Holy Spirit for the end, they will not be aware that the first supernatural entity coming to Jerusalem will be the Antichrist, and not our Lord Jesus. Those will be like the five foolish virgins of Christ's parable in Matt.25, of which the five foolish virgins failed to take a spare vessel of the Oil with them, that Oil of course representing The Holy Spirit, and thus the sealing of God's seal in the forehead of Revelation 9.

This is why in 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul warned the brethren that he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin", for he was afraid that if we heeded another preaching "another Jesus", he was afraid we might bear with that false one. In that chapter Paul is actually covering the same kind of warning he gave the Thessalonians in 2 Thess.2 about the Antichrist coming to work signs and wonders sitting in the temple of God, proclaiming himself as God. And Paul pointed directly to Satan disguised as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.

If Paul had been like the majority of brethren that are called only, then he wouldn't even know of that coming deception for the end of this world, and wouldn't know to warn the brethren about it. But Paul was a chosen one directly by Christ Jesus, even to write most of the New Testament Books.

You cannot just lay down names like the Patriarch's, the prophets and Apostles and go "ta da"...proof! That hardly constitutes proof! Yes, we can see they were elect, chosen by God before the foundation of the world for a specific purpose, or job. But Paul tells us the exact same thing in regards to us! "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" - Eph 1:11 and "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" - Eph 2:10

Ephesians 1 & 2 is packed with that language. The only....hear me...ONLY difference you can biblically point out (or actually prove) between us and them, is the gifts God graced them with for said purposes. For example: The Apostles (big A) were the eyewitnesses to Jesus' life and ministry...his death and resurrection. There will never be big A Apostles again, because there won't be the need. But there are plenty of those gifted with the task of taking the gospel to other people...missionaries, let's say. And you will not find, anywhere in scripture where Peter, James, John or Paul, lay out a different set of "specs" for 'little a' apostles, then they do for themselves.

And it matters not about 'believing', because that's not where our point of contention is. You are saying, essentially, that Christians divide into two groups. Those who are specially chosen, and no matter what they do, they will always have salvation. The other group, you are saying, has only a 'second rate' salvation. If we're too stupid, or not strong enough in crisis, or walk through a tough valley, then nope, we're out because we wavered or doubted for a second or season.

Where in any of that does "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. - Rom 11:29" fit? It doesn't. You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus is strong enough, loving enough, gracious enough, to hold onto ALL the Father give him, or he doesn't.

And my point with those who believe in a Pre-trib rapture, is that you can hardly say they "chose" to turn away from Christ, if they've been deceived. And honestly, even though I may or may not see truth in that doctrine, I don't know a single one who would go "oh, drats. I really wanted Jesus to come first. But, since he hasn't, I'm going to through in the towel and be done with it." It's ludicrous to think people who are so passionate about seeing Jesus are then going to pout and turn away just because they got something wrong. That sort of love and faith doesn't just go "poof!"

 

[Davy]

You cannot just lay down names like the Patriarch's, the prophets and Apostles and go "ta da"...proof! That hardly constitutes proof! Yes, we can see they were elect, chosen by God before the foundation of the world for a specific purpose, or job. But Paul tells us the exact same thing in regards to us! "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" - Eph 1:11 and "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" - Eph 2:10

Only as long as we remain in the Faith and do not allow ourselves to be deceived to another, then we are counted elect along with the Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles (the John 17 prayer by our Lord Jesus that we all become 'one' in Him and The Father, remember?). The great apostasy Apostle Paul warned of, and of brethren turning away per Acts 20, and Peter's warning about some in the last days with itching ears falling away, is proof enough that not every believer will remain faithful waiting on Christ's return.

 

[Naomi25]

Only as long as we remain in the Faith and do not allow ourselves to be deceived to another, then we are counted elect along with the Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles (the John 17 prayer by our Lord Jesus that we all become 'one' in Him and The Father, remember?). The great apostasy Apostle Paul warned of, and of brethren turning away per Acts 20, and Peter's warning about some in the last days with itching ears falling away, is proof enough that not every believer will remain faithful waiting on Christ's return.

One could argue, quite strongly, that these people were not true Christians to begin with. Too many bible verses corroborate.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. - Rom 11:29

"Irrevocable": not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. - John 6:37-39

That sounds fairly "irrevocable" to me.

..and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. - Acts 20:30

..for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. - 1 Cor 11:19

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that non of them belonged to us. - 1 John 2:19

Jesus and Paul clearly teach that among the 'church' will be those who seem like Christians, but are not...never were. And their actions/behaviors will eventually find them out. We this this just as clearly today: people who know the talk, know the actions, but inside they are not regenerated. And that cannot be hidden long.

 

[Davy]

You cannot just lay down names like the Patriarch's, the prophets and Apostles and go "ta da"...proof! That hardly constitutes proof! Yes, we can see they were elect, chosen by God before the foundation of the world for a specific purpose, or job. But Paul tells us the exact same thing in regards to us! "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" - Eph 1:11 and "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" - Eph 2:10

Well, I certainly can... just mention those in God's Word which shows they were chosen, and not just called, like Apostle Paul whom Christ Jesus struck down on the road to Damascus, converting Paul to Him. Has God spoken directly to you like He did with the Old Testament Patriarchs and prophets? No. Did Jesus come to you in person and cause you to believe like He did with Paul? I know He didn't.

Yet you don't mind exalting yourself to their office by trying to claim there is no difference between us who are called only vs. them who were called and chosen.

Even those at the start of Romans 11 of Israel that Paul compared to Elijah's time about God having reserved seven thousand unto Himself that had not bowed the knee to Baal shows an example of being chosen where their free will was not involved.

 

[Naomi25]

Well, I certainly can... just mention those in God's Word which shows they were chosen, and not just called, like Apostle Paul whom Christ Jesus struck down on the road to Damascus, converting Paul to Him. Has God spoken directly to you like He did with the Old Testament Patriarchs and prophets? No. Did Jesus come to you in person and cause you to believe like He did with Paul? I know He didn't.

Yet you don't mind exalting yourself to their office by trying to claim there is no difference between us who are called only vs. them who were called and chosen.

Even those at the start of Romans 11 of Israel that Paul compared to Elijah's time about God having reserved seven thousand unto Himself that had not bowed the knee to Baal shows an example of being chosen where their free will was not involved.

Okay. I'm going to make this as simple as I can. I am not "exalting" myself to the same 'level as Paul'. He is. Every time he says "us" in his letters, he does that. Does that mean I have the same gifts and calling upon my life as Paul did? Clearly not. But, as usual, you are mixing up salvation and gifts. Salvation wise, we are all equal to Paul...by Paul's own admission.

 

[Davy]

Okay. I'm going to make this as simple as I can. I am not "exalting" myself to the same 'level as Paul'. He is. Every time he says "us" in his letters, he does that. Does that mean I have the same gifts and calling upon my life as Paul did? Clearly not. But, as usual, you are mixing up salvation and gifts. Salvation wise, we are all equal to Paul...by Paul's own admission.

It's actually you that is mixing up the difference between called and chosen regarding God's Word, and also the idea of being saved.

You haven't been able to attack any of the Scripture proofs I have shown, especially with what our Lord Jesus showed in John 17, and about proof of His doing the choosing of His Apostles, so instead you try to find some other way to pic your false prybar by steering clear of those Scriptures and instead creating false accusations.

Clearly you don't understand God's Word on this matter, but instead want to believe there's no difference between those whom God chooses and The Holy Spirit seals into His service vs. someone who just believes on Him that later falls away.

And concerning Salvation, that is not ultimately up to you or me. But when Jesus answered His Apostles about what they would receive for following Him, and He told them they each would sit upon a throne over the 12 tribes of Israel in His future Kingdom, THAT DOES MEAN THEY ARE ALREADY SAVED... FOR THEM!

Has Jesus already told you what YOU would receive in His future Kingdom like He did with His Apostles? No, I know He didn't! So goto, keep believing that you have already been told your own reward like them, as if you're saved already.

Take a hard look at the believer in 1 Corithians 5 that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother. Paul cast that one out of that Church, and then rebuked the members there for not taking care of the matter themselves. Does that mean that one who sinned lost his salvation? No, for Paul mentioned his might being saved in the 'day of Christ', pointing to the time of Christ's future thousand years reign. It's up to Jesus whether that one will be saved, showing Paul knew that particular judgment didn't belong to him (nor us).

So was that believer that Paul cast out, is his salvation equal to Paul's? or to any of Christ's Apostles? Clearly not. Thus the OSAS doctrine of men is a false doctrine. Paul didn't go around saying who was already judged to go to hell, but he did often preach how we are saved in Christ Jesus, IF... we kept in the Faith. Paul always ultimately included a condition of remaining in Christ involving our salvation.

 

[Davy]

Back to the OP.

I'll do a detail on Christ's Olivet discourse, time permitting. Those interested look for it.

 

[Helen]

I am not "exalting" myself to the same 'level as Paul'. He is. Every time he says "us" in his letters, he does that.
Does that mean I have the same gifts and calling upon my life as Paul did? Clearly not. But, as usual, you are mixing up salvation and gifts.
Salvation wise, we are all equal to Paul...by Paul's own admission.

So true.
I am no longer amazed at how many believers mix up our *salvation and our *gifts, our *spiritual position and our *daily walk, the *joy of our relationship with Christ and *our works of love that we do because we love, not to earn.
And so the list goes on.
If they can't see it, they just can't see it!
Bless you.

 

[pia]

Heard that attitude a lot, especially from the fly away crowd.

Well, He did show you already, so I suggest you don't think He will show you again. It's already written in His Holy Writ. And it's like a personal letter written to His children.

No He didn't....He HAS shown me quite a few things but his one wasn't one of them.....You sadden me if all you think there is , is a written account , not the reality of Christ 'with us'.....Oh well...I will not get into it with you....Do not perceive Him as so impatient He won't show you a thing twice, that is also not true.....

 

[Pipiripi]

So true.
I am no longer amazed at how many believers mix up our *salvation and our *gifts, our *spiritual position and our *daily walk, the *joy of our relationship with Christ and *our works of love that we do because we love, not to earn.
And so the list goes on.
If they can't see it, they just can't see it!
Bless you.

So true.
I am no longer amazed at how many believers mix up our *salvation and our *gifts, our *spiritual position and our *daily walk, the *joy of our relationship with Christ and *our works of love that we do because we love, not to earn.
And so the list goes on.
If they can't see it, they just can't see it!
Bless you.

Everybody on this world who are Christians have to imitate or Jesus and His disciples, otherwise we are imitating the devil. Loud and clear.

 

[Naomi25]

It's actually you that is mixing up the difference between called and chosen regarding God's Word, and also the idea of being saved.

You haven't been able to attack any of the Scripture proofs I have shown,

What scriptural proofs????? You toss out scriptures, but I haven't seen a single one that supports your theory...and that's what I've been trying to tell you every post! It's like you've been posting a picture of a tree and going "ta da! Here is my proof that the sky is purple!" Your 1+1 is just not coming to 2. Sorry.

especially with what our Lord Jesus showed in John 17, and about proof of His doing the choosing of His Apostles, so instead you try to find some other way to pic your false prybar by steering clear of those Scriptures and instead creating false accusations.

No one disputes that Jesus chose the Apostles. What I am asking you to do, and thus far you have failed, spectacularly, is to prove that the bible then goes on to put up distinctions between Christians. Just because I am not a character in scripture does not mean God did not chose me before the foundation of this world. Do you know who told me that? Paul. Or God.

Ephesians 1: 3-9. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

See how I have used actual words to support my idea? Words that say that I am chosen by God.
But...if you are so sure that John 17, in general, supports your notion that Jesus is speaking to the Apostles and the Apostles alone.... May I then point out this verse:

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:20-21

If you are correct and there are indeed two groups of Christians...one 'chosen' who cannot loose their salvation, and another only 'called' who, it appears, can....then how do they become one? And why is Jesus praying the same prayer for all? It's because he sees them as one, just as he and the Father are one. It is you who is putting categories in scripture that is not there.

Clearly you don't understand God's Word on this matter, but instead want to believe there's no difference between those whom God chooses and The Holy Spirit seals into His service vs. someone who just believes on Him that later falls away.

And concerning Salvation, that is not ultimately up to you or me. But when Jesus answered His Apostles about what they would receive for following Him, and He told them they each would sit upon a throne over the 12 tribes of Israel in His future Kingdom, THAT DOES MEAN THEY ARE ALREADY SAVED... FOR THEM!
Has Jesus already told you what YOU would receive in His future Kingdom like He did with His Apostles? No, I know He didn't! So goto, keep believing that you have already been told your own reward like them, as if you're saved already.

There are many promises in scripture that I can hold onto. Every Christian can. And I feel very sorry for you that you are living without assurance of you salvation.
Don't you understand. It's Jesus who did the work. It's his strength that holds it, ultimately.
Listen to these promises:
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will" -Eph 1:4-5
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us..." - Eph 1:7-8a
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory." - Eph 1:13-14
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - Eph 2:5-10

Paul is talking to Gentiles here. He is clearly not talking to Apostles. We are saved now, by Christ. We take on his glory even as he took on our disgrace. Unfair? Yep. Outrageous? Yep. Glorious, absolutely!! That's why he gets all the praise, all the glory. And that's how it should be!
How do you honestly explain that, talking to Gentiles, Paul tells us that before the foundation of the world, God "chose" us to be part of his family through Christ's work? That this work of love will guarantee our inheritance by sealing us with the Holy Spirit, and that it is nothing we can boast of...in other words...we did not play a part of the rescue. But! But, he has saved us, predestined us, loved us, for specific works. Now....that sounds awfully like what you would say would be limited to those Apostles...the "chosen" few. And yet Paul is clearly talking to all Christians here.
You cannot prove the distinction between the two....it does not exist. And you are missing so many of the blessings and promises that we, as children, have now to look ahead to.

Take a hard look at the believer in 1 Corithians 5 that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother. Paul cast that one out of that Church, and then rebuked the members there for not taking care of the matter themselves. Does that mean that one who sinned lost his salvation? No, for Paul mentioned his might being saved in the 'day of Christ', pointing to the time of Christ's future thousand years reign. It's up to Jesus whether that one will be saved, showing Paul knew that particular judgment didn't belong to him (nor us).

So was that believer that Paul cast out, is his salvation equal to Paul's? or to any of Christ's Apostles? Clearly not. Thus the OSAS doctrine of men is a false doctrine. Paul didn't go around saying who was already judged to go to hell, but he did often preach how we are saved in Christ Jesus, IF... we kept in the Faith. Paul always ultimately included a condition of remaining in Christ involving our salvation.

And....more confusion. You say of this man who sinned sexually and Paul tossed out of the Church...that "it's up to Jesus whether that one will be saved, showing Paul knew that particular judgement didn't belong to him (nor us)". Except...haven't you said previously that a 'called' person can choose to dump his faith? Implying it's not, actually up to Jesus, really.
Then you go on and say that this fact...that Paul cast the man out of the Church, means that Paul's salvation is clearly of a higher standard than his. But you just said that both Paul (and us) cannot judge! You constantly make no sense!

Once again, you are confusing salvation, with gifts, and in this instance...fruit. The man who was sinning sexually, was producing really, really bad fruit. And was clearly unrepentant. You are correct in saying that we must be careful who we declare saved or not. But fruit will have a distinct smell. I think what Paul is saying here is a take on the whole "if you love someone, let them go". The church is a family. If this man's soul truly belonged to God, then being cast out of the church would have been a fairly significant wake up call. God calls his children to be humble, and being tossed out would either have caused him to sink to his knees, or to grow in bitterness. That bitterness may have then lead to the path of humility later on, if he was truly a Christian, or not if he was not a believer. Either way, he was not left sitting pretty in his comfortable spot in the church committing sin he thought was just fine. But in no way....no way, do we see this situation leading to a justifying of different salvation classes.

 

[Davy]

What scriptural proofs????? You toss out scriptures, but I haven't seen a single one that supports your theory...and that's what I've been trying to tell you every post! It's like you've been posting a picture of a tree and going "ta da! Here is my proof that the sky is purple!" Your 1+1 is just not coming to 2. Sorry.

Read and heed Acts 9 about Saul (Apostle Paul). English comprehension of that Acts 9 chapter means Jesus didn't have to make sure there was a verse there that said, "See, I converted Saul to Me, even when Saul was persecuting My Church; I intervened... and forced Saul to believe!"

Result of Jesus striking Saul (Paul) down on the road to Damascus? -- Saul believed on Jesus, and Jesus taught him The Gospel personally! Chosen Elect, is what that is proof of.

So didn't I mention that Acts 9 Scripture evidence to you? Yes, I believe I did.

No one disputes that Jesus chose the Apostles. What I am asking you to do, and thus far you have failed, spectacularly, is to prove that the bible then goes on to put up distinctions between Christians. Just because I am not a character in scripture does not mean God did not chose me before the foundation of this world. Do you know who told me that? Paul. Or God

I just showed you a major distinction, Paul being probably the greatest Bible example of a called and chosen elect, i.e., the "very elect" idea of Matthew 24:24 which began this discussion, which obviously you disregarded too. But here it is again...

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

And I showed you this also, proving that some ALREADY have been told their future REWARDS, showing they are certainly the "very elect":

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

 

[Davy]

....

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:20-21

If you are correct and there are indeed two groups of Christians...one 'chosen' who cannot loose their salvation, and another only 'called' who, it appears, can....then how do they become one? And why is Jesus praying the same prayer for all? It's because he sees them as one, just as he and the Father are one. It is you who is putting categories in scripture that is not there.

It doesn't take an anvil to fall on me to understand Jesus was talking about two separate groups there in John 17. The distinction should be easy for anyone who has read much of God's Word:

A. the one's Jesus 'sent' that are not of this world = His Apostles, sent which means chosen; the "very elect"
B. those also who will believe on Jesus through their word (i.e., Apostles preaching of The Gospel) = those called only

A. represents Christ's ordained leadership over His Church on earth.
B. represents those who must come to Jesus by their own choice when hearing A. preach, and remain faithful to the end.
C. believers who can fall away from Jesus like Paul showed in his Epistles (2 Cor.11; 2 Thess.2, 1 Cor.5; Heb.6, etc.)

D. ???

E. Christ's elect in God's future Kingdom of the new heavens and a new earth = A. and B. and D. together

(D. represents those who come to Christ Jesus during His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. That is the time when the unbelieving Jews will have their blinders removed that God put on them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles per Rom.11. Many, if not most of them, will then believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah. These who come to Jesus during that period must then be tested, which is why Satan will be loosed one final time to go tempt them along with the unbelieving nations, as per Rev.20:7-9).

 

[Davy]

....
There are many promises in scripture that I can hold onto. Every Christian can. And I feel very sorry for you that you are living without assurance of you salvation.
Don't you understand. It's Jesus who did the work. It's his strength that holds it, ultimately.
Listen to these promises:
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will" -Eph 1:4-5
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us..." - Eph 1:7-8a
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory." - Eph 1:13-14
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - Eph 2:5-10

Paul is talking to Gentiles here. He is clearly not talking to Apostles. We are saved now, by Christ. We take on his glory even as he took on our disgrace. Unfair? Yep. Outrageous? Yep. Glorious, absolutely!! That's why he gets all the praise, all the glory. And that's how it should be!
How do you honestly explain that, talking to Gentiles, Paul tells us that before the foundation of the world, God "chose" us to be part of his family through Christ's work? That this work of love will guarantee our inheritance by sealing us with the Holy Spirit, and that it is nothing we can boast of...in other words...we did not play a part of the rescue. But! But, he has saved us, predestined us, loved us, for specific works. Now....that sounds awfully like what you would say would be limited to those Apostles...the "chosen" few. And yet Paul is clearly talking to all Christians here.
You cannot prove the distinction between the two....it does not exist. And you are missing so many of the blessings and promises that we, as children, have now to look ahead to.

I'm sorry to make you doubt your salvation, because that's not my intention. Each believer should know exactly where they stand with our Heavenly Father and His Son. That is especially what prayer and study in His Word is for.

But at the same time, there's a lot of God's Word one would have to just throw away if we wanted to read only about those Scripture promises you mention. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave many admonishings and blessings, but also many warnings against falling away. And that... especially is what the signs of the end before Jesus' return are about.

I well know how the deemed controversial parts of God's Holy Writ are often passed over in many Churches today. Don't want to hurt old ladies feelings, nor scare the kiddies, and the hireling doesn't want to upset the coffer. Christian Churches when I was young laid it out, letting the chips fall where they may, allowing our Heavenly Father and His Son to speak to His children through His Word.

And....more confusion. You say of this man who sinned sexually and Paul tossed out of the Church...that "it's up to Jesus whether that one will be saved, showing Paul knew that particular judgement didn't belong to him (nor us)". Except...haven't you said previously that a 'called' person can choose to dump his faith? Implying it's not, actually up to Jesus, really.
Then you go on and say that this fact...that Paul cast the man out of the Church, means that Paul's salvation is clearly of a higher standard than his. But you just said that both Paul (and us) cannot judge! You constantly make no sense!

Of course our faith is up to us. How can you twist that? But you're surely trying, and by that you're actually the one not making sense.

1 Cor 5:3-5
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

The judgment Paul made against that one was to cast him out of that Church. That latter part, "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" is about Christ's future "thousand years" reign which begins on the "day of the Lord" (or 'day of Christ' in Phil.2:16, etc.)

The word 'judgment' is NOT... always synonomous with eternal hell fire! There are many judgments in God's Word that do not involve the casting into the "lake of fire". Paul's judgment in 1 Cor.5 is about casting that sinner out of that Church; Paul did not judge him to the lake of fire.

Once again, you are confusing salvation, with gifts, and in this instance...fruit. The man who was sinning sexually, was producing really, really bad fruit. And was clearly unrepentant. You are correct in saying that we must be careful who we declare saved or not. But fruit will have a distinct smell. I think what Paul is saying here is a take on the whole "if you love someone, let them go". The church is a family. If this man's soul truly belonged to God, then being cast out of the church would have been a fairly significant wake up call. God calls his children to be humble, and being tossed out would either have caused him to sink to his knees, or to grow in bitterness. That bitterness may have then lead to the path of humility later on, if he was truly a Christian, or not if he was not a believer. Either way, he was not left sitting pretty in his comfortable spot in the church committing sin he thought was just fine. But in no way....no way, do we see this situation leading to a justifying of different salvation classes.

Some actually believe that Paul in a later 1 Corinthians chapter accepted that sinner back into the Church after he repented. Very possible. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that that particular sin got him cast out. And it's Paul who set that example as overseer of the Churches. Because Paul pointing to that one's spirit possibly being saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, that was his giving a lot of information that helps us interpret the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. Jesus said He will forgive all manner of sin, except blasphemy against The Holy Spirit.

 

[Helen]

Everybody on this world who are Christians have to imitate or Jesus and His disciples, otherwise we are imitating the devil. Loud and clear.

Imitating is nothing more than parroting and "acting if"...it is CHANGE that is needed...not imitation.
God is "making man in His image and likeness"... not making a puppet that can just imitate Him.