Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Yes. The only thing that bothers me is the way you speak of "God-given human conscience." I think God IS our conscience.
JESUS: The End of All Laws, Rules, Commandments and Religions
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Backatcha, Brother! Hopefully, you'll pardon me if I'm too blunt. It happens.
This doesn't seem very much in keeping with your law-Law theory. Do you think he meant "ten commandments" when He said "LoM, P&P?"
And what about the heaven and earth passing away business? Hyperbole?
I don't think that'll hold 'em for long, SS.
The problem I see with that is that when people say that 2 Cor 3 means that the Ten Commandments are obsolete, what they are effectively saying is that only the 4th commandment is obsolete, because:
Do you think the other 9 are obsolete?
And please don't tell me they're obvious to mystically enlightened consciences because I've been on mission trips and I've had to work hard at convincing college-educated Bolivians that stealing is wrong, and I know missionaries who've had obviously, newly converted people struggle with the moral logic of overcoming much grosser sins.
And, moving right along...
Well, if not, then what kind of a boob do we paint God as, with Him accidentally including a non-moral imperative in His ten-part, self-inscribed Decalogue that was, for some reason, uber-conspicuously (there's quite a sensational build-up in Exodus 19, I'm sure you'll agree) distinct from civil, health, and ceremonial laws that were handwritten by Moses?
This stuff all boils down to the character of God, after all, and I'm sure you, of all people, can appreciate that.
And I'm deathly afraid that lawless theology will continue to (because it has already) lead the church to be more and more like the world, until God sees that every imagination of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil continually. We all (I guess) know it's coming but I don't think we're supposed to facilitate it.
You'll have to forgive my gross incredulity, I fear. I became a Christian over 50 years ago and, at that time, this stuff simply didn't exist outside of seminary study groups. I called my Southern Baptist dad up some months ago (he hasn't been to church in years) and asked him if he'd ever heard of the Ten Commandments being nailed to the cross in Sunday School or church. He said: "What?"
He thought I was ribbing him. .
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Why did Jesus give his life to pay our death penalty if we could be saved by obeying a handful of commandments?
And what was the Rich Young Ruler missing? He said he had kept the Commandments since youth.
Jesus didn't welcome him into heaven, did he?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
"LoM, P&P" means the BOOKS of:
The Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.
The FULFILLMENT of which will not pass away.
Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms
They're kids. Let's start with the basics and build from there. - LOLI don't think that'll hold 'em for long, SS.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Do you believe that the Sabbath commandment is a moral imperative?
Sounds like a "Yes."
Ask your Baptist Dad if he keeps the Sabbath. - LOL
(since he believes it wasn't nailed to the cross)
Do you believe that the Sabbath commandment is a moral imperative?
Should I take that as a "Yes,", or a "No."?Well, if not, then what kind of a boob do we paint God as, with Him accidentally including a non-moral imperative in His ten-part, self-inscribed Decalogue that was, for some reason, uber-conspicuously (there's quite a sensational build-up in Exodus 19, I'm sure you'll agree) distinct from civil, health, and ceremonial laws that were handwritten by Moses?
This stuff all boils down to the character of God, after all, and I'm sure you, of all people, can appreciate that.
And I'm deathly afraid that lawless theology will continue to (because it has already) lead the church to be more and more like the world, until God sees that every imagination of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil continually. We all (I guess) know it's coming but I don't think we're supposed to facilitate it.
You'll have to forgive my gross incredulity, I fear. I became a Christian over 50 years ago and, at that time, this stuff simply didn't exist outside of seminary study groups. I called my Southern Baptist dad up some months ago (he hasn't been to church in years) and asked him if he'd ever heard of the Ten Commandments being nailed to the cross in Sunday School or church. He said: "What?"
Sounds like a "Yes."
Ask your Baptist Dad if he keeps the Sabbath. - LOL
(since he believes it wasn't nailed to the cross)
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
You don't seem to understand my point. If you rob a bank, you'll go to prison. Therefore God told us not to steal.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I believe that our conscience is God, so you seem to be saying, "Who gave us God?" I would answer: God.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You wrote:
St. SteVen said:
Why did Jesus give his life to pay our death penalty if we could be saved by obeying a handful of commandments?
And what was the Rich Young Ruler missing? He said he had kept the Commandments since youth.
Jesus didn't welcome him into heaven, did he?
Then you replied:
I replied:
St. SteVen said:
Why did Jesus give his life to pay our death penalty if we could be saved by obeying a handful of commandments?
And what was the Rich Young Ruler missing? He said he had kept the Commandments since youth.
Jesus didn't welcome him into heaven, did he?
Then you replied:
Do you believe that eternal life can be gained by obeying the commandments Jesus listed for the Rich Young Ruler?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I believe John 3:16 when it says we have eternal life if we believe in Jesus, but that isn't the end of the story.
Chapter 2: You ain't going to be happy if you are committing adultery, stealing, murdering, or bearing false witness.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I don't know about that, but we are talking about a person's conscience - that little "voice" that gives us good advice. I think that is God's voice.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Right, but it's not the only voice in there. I like the unanswered question in Genesis chapter three.
God asked Adam: "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I agree that not every voice we hear in our head is the Lord's.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
So you don't think that observing and living by the other nine commandments would bring wellness to us and to our children throughout eternity?
Do you see what I mean about 2 Cor 3 and the "ministration of death" thing?
I get that a lot of folks hold to a dispensational theology, but we all approach God and the Bible, to some extent or other, with a subconscious aim of seeing what all we can preserve form our comforts and traditions, while yet managing to slip our slimy carcasses through a crack in the one of the pearly gates. (I'm using hyperbole for dramatic illustrative effect. I used to do that when I worked as CNC machinist. I would exaggerate a problem area in a process so I could better see how to effect a solution.) So we latch onto theologies that accommodate that aim. Dispensationalism, especially as was refined by Scofield, barely even existed before 1900.
The truth is that we all are influenced by teachers, and even if our own motives were squeaky clean, the chance that the motives of all who have influenced our thinking were so is pretty remote.
Well, for the general record, it's a BIG, FAT yes, SS.
(I got rid of that link to Sabbathtruth.com in my signature that you didn't like, remember? - lol
)See, there? We could have easily avoided all this confusion.
I know that he doesn't, but he did at one time. And his mother would not allow any unnecessary work to be done on her property on Sunday.
And, before you leap, just as God winked (and winks) at the ignorance of idolatry, He could probably manage a wink or two at the ignorance of those who are not too Sabbath-savvy.
Well, he probably does believe that but I only posed the question of whether he had ever heard of such a thing in his life, the point of which somewhat disappointingly seems to be escaping you at the moment.
So I will elucidate.
Ahem.
Does it give you any pause for thought that if you pick up any book written by a Christian before about 1960, let's say, you're not going to find a peep about the Ten Commandments (my spell-checker insists on capitalizing that—I'm not being a zealot—honest) being irrelevant to Christians?
I mean, this month is Ten Commandments Month over at logos.com!
Should we conclude that for hundreds and hundreds of years, Christianity was confused about their moral duty toward God?
And, although I know no one is made of free time, you've left quite a bit of my concerns unaddressed, which is perfectly okay if that was your intention, or, even if it wasn't, I guess.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Because it's too late to be saved by our own commandment-keeping by the time we realize what sin is and that we need a saviour. And now I've made my own head spin.
He went away sorrowing, for he had many possessions.
IOW:
He was a BIG, FAT COVETEER!
.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. If I buy that, then what?
Wouldn't it be dishonest to claim you are observing the Ten when you are only observing nine?
Seems like an all-or-nothing situation.
But my point is not to claim that we should steal and lie and commit adultery, etc.
My point is that the Ten were given to the Israelites through Moses. Which I have already
supported biblically. You and @Bob Estey seem to disagree with that biblical evidence.
And the teaching of the Apostle Paul on the subject.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
LOLWell, for the general record, it's a BIG, FAT yes, SS.
(I got rid of that link to Sabbathtruth.com in my signature that you didn't like, remember? - lol
See, there? We could have easily avoided all this confusion.
So, what does that mean to you? What does it mean to keep the Sabbath?
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. You make some good points.Does it give you any pause for thought that if you pick up any book written by a Christian before about 1960, let's say, you're not going to find a peep about the Ten Commandments (my spell-checker insists on capitalizing that—I'm not being a zealot—honest) being irrelevant to Christians?
I mean, this month is Ten Commandments Month over at logos.com!
Should we conclude that for hundreds and hundreds of years, Christianity was confused about their moral duty toward God?
And, although I know no one is made of free time, you've left quite a bit of my concerns unaddressed, which is perfectly okay if that was your intention, or, even if it wasn't, I guess.
It was probably 15 or 20 years ago that a Seventh Day Adventist asked me why I was only keeping 9 of the Ten Commandments.
I had never heard that question before. But I came back pretty quickly to inform him that we Christians are not under the law.
This began a decade long debate on that particular forum. I learned a lot from my study in defense of my position.
Turns out that this particular SDA person wasn't too fond of my rebuttals. He had some choice words for me.
Then some COG (Armstrongism) folks joined the fray. So, I had to educate myself on that business.
So, I have been at war against Sabbatarianism for a decade or two.
Prior to that I had joined some Messianic Christians for a Friday night Sabbath meal. Nice folks.
They did what they did because that's who they were. They had no bad feelings toward others.
Bottom line.
If you declare the Sabbath as God's Holy Day, what does that say about any who don't agree?
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