Jesus will not lose anyone

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

we were all predestined for Heaven until a serpent intervened. only Jesus can justify and sanctify us for Heaven, once more. No human was predestined for Hell.

Where does it say that in the bible."we were all predestined to heaven until the debal intervened..."???

 

[meshak]

I must read up on your other threads Episkopos, I am battling to pin you. What Christian denomination are you? You clearly don't believe in OSAS, but your view of the opposite speaks of a works based salvation and you don't yet get that or I could be completely misreading your posts...?? :blink:

Do you know that faith requires a lot of works?

You dont have security of salvation if you are not faithful to Jesus until the end.

OSAS is man-made doctrine. Why do you follow man, Calvin, instead of Jesus?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Very true. We cannot promote false security. There is no security in unbelief. There is no comfort in straying from the Lord or rebelling at His word to you, personally. There can be no confidence in ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit. How can one have confidence if they do not abide in Christ?

What confidence does a wife has in a husband's love for her, if he constantly ignores her. What he is communicating to her is that HE DOES NOT LOVE HER. And thus, how can she KNOW HIM or BE KNOWN OF HIM, without relation(ship)?

When Jesus says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU", He is talking about not having any relations with you, no fellowship, not knowing who you are from a standpoint of spiritual intimacy.

Axehead

Actually, he was referring to no marriage at all. Not married and no intimacy.

 

[Selene]

Where does it say that in the bible."we were all predestined to heaven until the debal intervened..."???

Hell was created for Satan and his angels. It was never created for man. But if a man finds himself in Hell, it is because he chose to be there.

 

[williemac]

The verse says ANYONE may eat...and not die...it does not say anyone may eat and be forever in glory. Check your interpretation again against he whole bible.

Correct. It does not say anyone may eat and be forever in glory. But it does say that those who do not eat will not live forever. Read it for yourself. There are two possible destinies mentioned; to live forever or to die. Dying, however you may describe or define it, is not living forever. If it were, the passage would be a lie. Therefore you have to at least revise your perspective to include three options: To die. To live forever in glory. to live forever in darkness. I do not see three options, myself.

Jesus nowhere says that any of His children will be put into a place of outer darkness forever. What He did say is that those who believe, would not come into judgment (John 5:24). So how is it that one can receive a sentence of banishment without having been judged?

 

[Axehead]

Do you know that faith requires a lot of works?

You dont have security of salvation if you are not faithful to Jesus until the end.

OSAS is man-made doctrine. Why do you follow man, Calvin, instead of Jesus?

Amen bro.


Joh_8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Actually, he was referring to no marriage at all. Not married and no intimacy.

??? Please explain.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[williemac]

Amen bro.


Joh_8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James noticed the lack of genuine love and rebuked the readers for this. Therfore He questioned their faith.
The examples he gave of Abraham offering his son, merely reveal that Abraham believed God's promise. This is the work that proved he believed God.

The point of this is that we are to believe God. So therefore, what kind of works will reveal that? Well, for starters, it depends on just what is being believed. I suspect that certain members here believe that if they do works, they will be saved. Therefore their works prove what they believe. So I will say this: That is not faith in God.

God said He would save those who believe. The works He is looking for will reflect that one believes this promise. The most sincere and meaningful love, which is not self serving in any way, can only flow out from one who is secure in God's love. People can work all they want, but if it is not this love that is flowing from them, they are like a loud, loud noise.

The two commandments in the new covenant can be found in 1John 3:23. They are to believe on Jesus and love one another, as He gave us commandment. One who has received the new man by way of the new birth by way of faith, will be filled with God's love, and therefore will be equipped by God to love others out of this security. Thus, faith produces works. However, the glory will always be God's. If we love others in order to secure our own life, then this does not fit the truest definition of love. The motive is tainted. Love does not seek its own.

Jesus wants us to be faithful to the end. Faithful to what? TO THE TRUTH!

 

[KingJ]

Do you know that faith requires a lot of works?

You dont have security of salvation if you are not faithful to Jesus until the end.

OSAS is man-made doctrine. Why do you follow man, Calvin, instead of Jesus?

Meshak, you need to re-read my first post here. I don't believe in OSAS...what made you assume that?

Calvinism does not nearly encompass all who believe in OSAS. I have more time for anyone believing in OSAS then a Calvinist ^_^.

But even though I don't believe in OSAS, I certainly DO NOT believe as you do. It is NOT easy to lose your salvation. You need to make ''shipwreck'' of it. That entails knowingly directing your ship into harsh weather and maintaining a course in that harsh weather. ie, continue in an extremity of sin for a long enough period and you are wise to get nervous of an eternity in hell. God is the judge of course and will, like with the prodigal son, do all He can to keep you and then some.

 

[williemac]

Meshak, you need to re-read my first post here. I don't believe in OSAS...what made you assume that?

Calvinism does not nearly encompass all who believe in OSAS. I have more time for anyone believing in OSAS then a Calvinist ^_^.

But even though I don't believe in OSAS, I certainly DO NOT believe as you do. It is NOT easy to lose your salvation. You need to make ''shipwreck'' of it. That entails knowingly directing your ship into harsh weather and maintaining a course in that harsh weather. ie, continue in an extremity of sin for a long enough period and you are wise to get nervous of an eternity in hell. God is the judge of course and will, like with the prodigal son, do all He can to keep you and then some.

King J. We have simialr viewpoints on many things. I don't wish to minimize that by telling you that I diasagree that salvation is lost through sin, whether extreme or prolonged. It is lost by reversing that which caused it. Faith. God is not fickle. If we are to be judged according to the law, then we all fail. The extremity of sin by our standards is just that; our standard. God's standard is that one needs righteousness. Any sin whatsoever proves the lack thereof. Therefore righteousness is given to us by God. It is His righteousness in us that saves us. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7).

As I shared with Meshak, John 5:24 says that by faith in Him, we will not come into judgment. We cannot lose salvation through judgment. We can only fall away through unbelief. (Heb.10:39)
Blessings, Howie

 

[Episkopos]

Correct. It does not say anyone may eat and be forever in glory. But it does say that those who do not eat will not live forever. Read it for yourself. There are two possible destinies mentioned; to live forever or to die. Dying, however you may describe or define it, is not living forever. If it were, the passage would be a lie. Therefore you have to at least revise your perspective to include three options: To die. To live forever in glory. to live forever in darkness. I do not see three options, myself.

Jesus nowhere says that any of His children will be put into a place of outer darkness forever. What He did say is that those who believe, would not come into judgment (John 5:24). So how is it that one can receive a sentence of banishment without having been judged?

Those that are cast out as unworthy will live in darkness forever. Yet they are saved from the wrath reserved for the world.

I do wish people were more conversant with the bible. But here is a simple verse that attest to this doctrine. Do a bible study to find many more...

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Those that are cast out as unworthy will live in darkness forever. Yet they are saved from the wrath reserved for the world.

This is non-sensical. The unworthy saved are consigned to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth FOREVER; yet the wrath of GOD on ungodly flesh, which only lasts until the flesh is dead, is worse?

Why would anyone in their right mind follow such a GOD as this whose salvation is making people suffer forever? How can a rational mind think or justify such things?

 

[Episkopos]

This is non-sensical. The unworthy saved are consigned to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth FOREVER; yet the wrath of GOD on ungodly flesh, which only lasts until the flesh is dead, is worse?

Why would anyone in their right mind follow such a GOD as this whose salvation is making people suffer forever? How can a rational mind think or justify such things?

Why don't you be honest and just refute the verse I posted instead of pretending it's not there.


So you are against followers of Christ or just God? The bible IS non-sensical for the carnally minded.

You are unwilling to follow God...so you make one in the style of your liking to follow? Do expect a reward for this?

It is people who choose to live their lives apart from God's presence AFTER receiving grace that are cast into outer darkness. God is a God of reality....not fantasy as so many modern easy "believers" are.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why don't you be honest and just refute the verse I posted instead of pretending it's not there.
So you are against followers of Christ or just God? The bible IS non-sensical for the carnally minded.
You are unwilling to follow God...so you make one in the style of your liking to follow? Do expect a reward for this?
It is people who choose to live their lives apart from God's presence AFTER receiving grace that are cast into outer darkness. God is a God of reality....not fantasy as so many modern easy "believers" are.

The verse you quoted is obviously referring to the lost, not the saved. Whether they are former believers who deny the lord, or unbelievers who have always denied the lord, is irrelevant; they both have the same fate - condemnation. Do you deny this?

 

[Episkopos]

The verse you quoted is obviously referring to the lost, not the saved. Whether they are former believers who deny the lord, or unbelievers who have always denied the lord, is irrelevant; they both have the same fate - condemnation. Do you deny this?

You deny the truth with your carnal reasoning as you are wont to do. Wandering in outer darkness forever is not he same fate as being killed in the second death in the lake of fire. But through your indoctrination you cannot see this.

Jesus said many who say Lord Lord...that includes MANY modern believers will be rejected by Jesus Christ. Jesus spews out the Laodicean BELIEVERS because they have no sense of reality and truth (sound familiar).

Will you also argue that the Laodiceans were unbelievers and lost? They claimed to be saved and rich!!! Does THAT sound familiar?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You deny the truth with your carnal reasoning as you are wont to do. Wandering in outer darkness forever is not he same fate as being killed in the second death in the lake of fire. But through your indoctrination you cannot see this.

Let me get this straight. Believers who fall away are resurrected and tormented forever, but the wicked are resurrected and then destroyed, but not tormented forever? Is this what you're saying?

 

[Episkopos]

Let me get this straight. Believers who fall away are resurrected and tormented forever, but the wicked are resurrected and then destroyed, but not tormented forever? Is this what you're saying?

Are people being tormented when they live in a fantasy world today? No one is keeping them from returning to God in order to live in Him. But they will continue to live in their true condition for eternity unless they repent from dead works. You are putting a spin in the word that is not there. It does not say tormented. You have added to the word. Can you ever just look at the word without trying to distort or pervert it? Do you have no love for the truth at all? Do you have a beef with God?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Are people being tormented when they live in a fantasy world today? No one is keeping them from returning to God in order to live in Him. But they will continue to live in their true condition for eternity unless they repent from dead works. You are putting a spin in the word that is not there. It does not say tormented. You have added to the word. Can you ever just look at the word without trying to distort or pervert it? Do you have no love for the truth at all? Do you have a beef with God?

Can't you just answer a simple question? Are the wicked annihilated, or tormented. Do they cease to exist, or are they alive forever in torment?

 

[Episkopos]

Can't you just answer a simple question? Are the wicked annihilated, or tormented. Do they cease to exist, or are they alive forever in torment?

The wicked are annihilated in the lake of fire, but the filthy (those who don't keep their garments) walk in shame, nakedness and darkness forever.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

... the filthy (those who don't keep their garments) walk in shame, nakedness and darkness forever.

And that in your mind is "salvation"?

 

[Episkopos]

And that in your mind is "salvation"?

They have eternal life don't they? The are reaping what they have sown. That is a biblical concept you see.