Jesus will not lose anyone

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

They have eternal life don't they? The are reaping what they have sown. That is a biblical concept you see.

No they are alive forever, but in the state of eternal death, i.e., separation from the glory of GOD. This is the destination of all the wicked, whether it be those who forsake Christ or those who never confessed him.

 

[Episkopos]

No they are alive forever, but in the state of eternal death, i.e., separation from the glory of GOD. This is the destination of all the wicked, whether it be those who forsake Christ or those who never confessed him.

So Jesus spits out the Laodicean Christians into glory? Paul was worried about being cut off and thrown into the lake of fire? Or of being not chosen for the Bride.

The words of Jesus hold little or no weight with you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So Jesus spits out the Laodicean Christians into glory? Paul was worried about being cut off and thrown into the lake of fire? Or of being not chosen for the Bride.

The words of Jesus hold little or no weight with you.

No. No. The bride is Jerusalem where all believers who overcome dwell. You are a very judgmental person - a sign of insecurity about what you believe.

 

[Episkopos]

No. No. The bride is Jerusalem where all believers who overcome dwell. You are a very judgmental person - a sign of insecurity about what you believe.

Who said anything about the bride? I am reading the bible as it is written. You only see what you want...while flagrantly ignoring the actual text.

The Laodicean church refuses to repent therefore they are not the bride. They are rejected as vessels of dishonour and will be cast into outer darkness with the unprofitable servants. MANY who claim to believe in Jesus fall into this catagory. Of course this cannot be seen by the very ones that Jesus says are blind. That is the way of it whether this pleases you or not. Truth is more important than reading what you want into the text.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Who said anything about the bride? I am reading the bible as it is written. You only see what you want...while flagrantly ignoring the actual text.

The Laodicean church refuses to repent therefore they are not the bride. They are rejected as vessels of dishonour and will be cast into outer darkness with the unprofitable servants. MANY who claim to believe in Jesus fall into this catagory. Of course this cannot be seen by the very ones that Jesus says are blind. That is the way of it whether this pleases you or not. Truth is more important than reading what you want into the text.

You brought up the bride in your previous post, that Paul was afraid of not being chosen for the bride. I think that's ridiculous because all believers are part of Jerusalem, which is the bride.

Many who claim to believe in Jesus only do so in their minds and are not exercising true faith, so technically, they are not believers. And yes they are cast into outer darkness, as are the wicked who never claimed to believe.

 

[Episkopos]

You brought up the bride in your previous post, that Paul was afraid of not being chosen for the bride. I think that's ridiculous because all believers are part of Jerusalem, which is the bride.

Many who claim to believe in Jesus only do so in their minds and are not exercising true faith, so technically, they are not believers. And yes they are cast into outer darkness, as are the wicked who never claimed to believe.

Do you include the apostle Paul in your list of the wicked. He feared being cast out. Are you greater than Paul. Tell us!

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Do you include the apostle Paul in your list of the wicked. He feared being cast out. Are you greater than Paul. Tell us!

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

You're either being forgetful or disingenuous. I already covered this - http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17928-jesus-will-not-lose-anyone/#entry188643

 

[Episkopos]

You're either being forgetful or disingenuous. I already covered this - http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17928-jesus-will-not-lose-anyone/#entry188643

G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

What does one do with salt that has lost it's saltiness. It is worthless. So is your explanation that seeks to mislead.

So your spin again devalues the word. Paul was not afraid of blushing before Jesus....he was worried that he would be a reprobate, worthless, unapproved....REJECTED.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

What does one do with salt that has lost it's saltiness. It is worthless. So is your explanation that seeks to mislead.


So your spin again devalues the word. Paul was not afraid of blushing before Jesus....he was worried that he would be a reprobate, worthless, unapproved....REJECTED.

You conveniently avoided not hightlighting the first word, which is generally the intended meaning - unapproved. Nevertheless. Trust me, all works done in Christ's name that consist of wood, hay and stubble will be disapproved, rejected, worthless, castaway, and burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. That doesn't imply a lost salvation.

 

[Episkopos]

You conveniently avoided not hightlighting the first word, which is generally the intended meaning - unapproved. Nevertheless. Trust me, all works done in Christ's name that consist of wood, hay and stubble will be disapproved, rejected, worthless, castaway, and burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. That doesn't imply a lost salvation.

That's what I'm trying to tell you. It is the QUALITY of the salvation that changes

Paul didn't say he was worried that his works only would be rejected...he specifically says...I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.

You probably didn't notice that. <_<

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's what I'm trying to tell you. It is the QUALITY of the salvation that changes

Yes, but what I'm trying to point out is that the salvation (outer darkness) you describe is no salvation. That is damnation.
The real situation is more analogous to something like the quality of living in the palace as opposed to that of living in the city.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, but what I'm trying to point out is that the salvation (outer darkness) you describe is no salvation. That is damnation.
The real situation is more analogous to something like the quality of living in the palace as opposed to that of living in the city.

Well you are wrong. Salvation means that we are not judged along with the world and we don't die. Paul specifically...as does Jesus...warns about being careful how we build on the initial salvation. In a great house are vessels of honour AND vessels of dishonour. Some build on the rock and some build on sand. Some are wise and some are foolish. Those who are purged from the carnal ways are then fit for the master's use. Those that are reckless and careless in their building will LOSE what they have and be naked and shamed. They will not be permitted entry into the city. That is why there are gates...12 in all. No one who practices and teaches a lie will be allowed in.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well you are wrong. Salvation means that we are not judged along with the world and we don't die. Paul specifically...as does Jesus...warns about being careful how we build on the initial salvation. In a great house are vessels of honour AND vessels of dishonour. Some build on the rock and some build on sand. Some are wise and some are foolish. Those who are purged from the carnal ways are then fit for the master's use. Those that are reckless and careless in their building will LOSE what they have and be naked and shamed. They will not be permitted entry into the city. That is why there are gates...12 in all. No one who practices and teaches a lie will be allowed in.

OK. Another question. Are the vessels of dishonor resurrected at the first or second resurrection?

 

[Episkopos]

OK. Another question. Are the vessels of dishonor resurrected at the first or second resurrection?

The first...Judgment starts in the house of God.

The first judgment is about honour and dishonour, the second resurrection is about life and death.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The first...Judgment starts in the house of God.


The first judgment is about honour and dishonour, the second resurrection is about life and death.

OK. Next question. If those in the first resurrection are judged in the heavens while wrath is being poured out on the earth, what happens to the vessels of dishonor as they are rejected. Are they sent back to earth?

 

[Episkopos]

OK. Next question. If those in the first resurrection are judged in the heavens while wrath is being poured out on the earth, what happens to the vessels of dishonor as they are rejected. Are they sent back to earth?

Only God knows...

Here is another reference to the first resurrection..

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The second resurrection has all the remaining ones (the nations) being judged



Here is another clue that it is God's house being judged first...

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[williemac]

Only God knows...

Here is another reference to the first resurrection..

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The second resurrection has all the remaining ones (the nations) being judged



Here is another clue that it is God's house being judged first...

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The passage makes a distinction between those mentioned in vs. 1 and vs.2. It says.. THY PEOPLE shall be delivered. Delivered from what? The time of trouble. And at at time, many who sleep shall awake. Does it say many of THY PEOPLE? No it does not. The term.." my people" is important enough to be repeated in vs.1. If it was supposed to refer to them in vs. 2, surely it would have said "my people" in vs. 2. Since it did not, you are making a connection that cannot be proven from the text. It falls in the category of opinion. The passage does not prove what you say it does. You likely make the connection from a previously determined conclusion. It is easy to see things we want to see if we have already made up our mind. This is what you are likely doing.

There is no reason that vs. 2 cannot be a generality, referring to both resurrections. If it were, the statement would be perfectly true and legit.


By the way, Epi, in regards to the vessels of honor and dishonor, it should be noted that they are both IN the same house. As well, your mention of the Great City is well enough, but remember, it is seen coming out of heaven and hovering over the earth. It is the dwelling place of the saints who are ruling with Christ for 1000 years. The earth will we populated with those who are being ruled. They are those whom cannot enter the city.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Only God knows...
Here is another clue that it is God's house being judged first...

Yeah I know GOD's people are judged first. That should be obvious to any student of scripture. It should also be obvious that it is GOD's house that is being judged, and the judgment is in regards to works, not righteousness. There will be many who think that they are going to receive great rewards at that judgment (apparently like yourself), who will be surprised to find that not everything they did or said was from the holy spirit. They will be judged for their idle words, just like the words that came out the mouth's of Job's friends, who were reprimanded by GOD for speaking the things that weren't right. Will they be cast away? Of course not. But neither will they receive the greater rewards of righteousness, just like Job's friends didn't receive the greater honor he received for speaking what was right. Was Peter cast away when he betrayed Jesus? No, but he was greatly humbled.

Since this as far as you can take the eschatological details of your theory, let me tell you the problem with your interpretation that I see.

According to your theory, the vessels of dishonor are resurrected at the first resurrection, then are rejected and cast out at the first judgment. Now as immortal beings. they wander the earth in outer darkness outside of Jerusalem for 1000 years. These people are pretty pissed off at Jesus now and join or become Gog and Magog. Next the devil is loosed, and the hordes of Gog and Magog attack Jerusalem, but are destroyed in fire. But this contradicts your teaching that they live forever wandering in outer darkness.

Bur even if they weren't destroyed in this fire, here is another problem. There will be a new earth in which righteousness, and only righteousness, dwells. GOD the father comes to earth with the new Jerusalem when all sin has been subdued and destroyed. Pissed off, immortal ex-Christians wandering the earth forever doesn't fit that scenario.

 

[Episkopos]

The passage makes a distinction between those mentioned in vs. 1 and vs.2. It says.. THY PEOPLE shall be delivered. Delivered from what? The time of trouble. And at at time, many who sleep shall awake. Does it say many of THY PEOPLE? No it does not. The term.." my people" is important enough to be repeated in vs.1. If it was supposed to refer to them in vs. 2, surely it would have said "my people" in vs. 2. Since it did not, you are making a connection that cannot be proven from the text. It falls in the category of opinion. The passage does not prove what you say it does. You likely make the connection from a previously determined conclusion. It is easy to see things we want to see if we have already made up our mind. This is what you are likely doing.

There is no reason that vs. 2 cannot be a generality, referring to both resurrections. If it were, the statement would be perfectly true and legit.


By the way, Epi, in regards to the vessels of honor and dishonor, it should be noted that they are both IN the same house. As well, your mention of the Great City is well enough, but remember, it is seen coming out of heaven and hovering over the earth. It is the dwelling place of the saints who are ruling with Christ for 1000 years. The earth will we populated with those who are being ruled. They are those whom cannot enter the city.

But even here there is a distinction. The righteous nations may bring their glory into the city. Not so the shamed ones.

Notice...

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Yeah I know GOD's people are judged first. That should be obvious to any student of scripture. It should also be obvious that it is GOD's house that is being judged, and the judgment is in regards to works, not righteousness. There will be many who think that they are going to receive great rewards at that judgment (apparently like yourself), who will be surprised to find that not everything they did or said was from the holy spirit. They will be judged for their idle words, just like the words that came out the mouth's of Job's friends, who were reprimanded by GOD for speaking the things that weren't right. Will they be cast away? Of course not. But neither will they receive the greater rewards of righteousness, just like Job's friends didn't receive the greater honor he received for speaking what was right. Was Peter cast away when he betrayed Jesus? No, but he was greatly humbled.

Since this as far as you can take the eschatological details of your theory, let me tell you the problem with your interpretation that I see.

According to your theory, the vessels of dishonor are resurrected at the first resurrection, then are rejected and cast out at the first judgment. Now as immortal beings. they wander the earth in outer darkness outside of Jerusalem for 1000 years. These people are pretty pissed off at Jesus now and join or become Gog and Magog. Next the devil is loosed, and the hordes of Gog and Magog attack Jerusalem, but are destroyed in fire. But this contradicts your teaching that they live forever wandering in outer darkness.

Bur even if they weren't destroyed in this fire, here is another problem. There will be a new earth in which righteousness, and only righteousness, dwells. GOD the father comes to earth with the new Jerusalem when all sin has been subdued and destroyed. Pissed off, immortal ex-Christians wandering the earth forever doesn't fit that scenario.

You err in that you cannot make the distinction between holy and righteous. The saints are the HOLY ones who live through Christ. The righteous are the humble ones. The meek shall inherit the earth and populate the nations. The saints shall rule over them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You err in that you cannot make the distinction between holy and righteous. The saints are the HOLY ones who live through Christ. The righteous are the humble ones. The meek shall inherit the earth and populate the nations. The saints shall rule over them.

You err in that you run and hide from the light whenever the light shines on the errors of your teachings. Sanctimonious generalities and veiled condemnations, as you are so prone to declare, are not the work of a holy person.

Woe unto you for putting stumbling blocks in front of the brethren.